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The Golden Globes.
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 03:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Protests by their very nature are meant to be uncomfortable.

The Civil Rights movement wasn’t exactly “comfortable” but they’re considered pioneers and hero’s today.

Pretty clear we still have a ways to go in this country to open up people’s eyes.

"Some can't see beyond their own strong views on an issue."
01-09-2018 03:42 PM
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RunningGame Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 03:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Protests by their very nature are meant to be uncomfortable.

The Civil Rights movement wasn’t exactly “comfortable” but they’re considered pioneers and hero’s today.

Pretty clear we still have a ways to go in this country to open up people’s eyes.

Where in America do you find a place that isn't already hosting political slap fights? Hey, my major was American Public Policy, I work in politics, I often lament that they are a verboten topic in places like families gatherings, but there has to be some space in our society where we can leave it at the door, lest we become a totalitarian society where every aspect of life is political in nature.

So far, with WMU football, it's been mostly about what matters the most: 11 different guys, looking down the field, seeing things the same way, and executing a single plan together.

I could make it really, really, really uncomfortable in here, but that's not what anyone comes here to do (well, most of us).

And that's what was great about the Poly Sci department at WMU in my time, it was low key, and all of the professors broadly understood their roles.
01-09-2018 04:30 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 03:42 PM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Protests by their very nature are meant to be uncomfortable.

The Civil Rights movement wasn’t exactly “comfortable” but they’re considered pioneers and hero’s today.

Pretty clear we still have a ways to go in this country to open up people’s eyes.

"Some can't see beyond their own strong views on an issue."

The difference is they’re the ones talking. You can choose to listen or not listen.

I’m not asking you to listen to me. I’m asking you to listen to them.
01-09-2018 04:31 PM
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 04:31 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:42 PM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Protests by their very nature are meant to be uncomfortable.

The Civil Rights movement wasn’t exactly “comfortable” but they’re considered pioneers and hero’s today.

Pretty clear we still have a ways to go in this country to open up people’s eyes.

"Some can't see beyond their own strong views on an issue."

The difference is they’re the ones talking. You can choose to listen or not listen.

I’m not asking you to listen to me. I’m asking you to listen to them.

Hoekjeness, my friend, you have entirely missed my point.

Empathy. Try it. There are many, many important causes worthy of "uncomfortable," protest. You just happen to support this cause and can't/won't see the larger picture/issue beyond it.

Peace, bro! While I question your logic, I respect your passion.
01-09-2018 04:44 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:31 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:42 PM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Protests by their very nature are meant to be uncomfortable.

The Civil Rights movement wasn’t exactly “comfortable” but they’re considered pioneers and hero’s today.

Pretty clear we still have a ways to go in this country to open up people’s eyes.

"Some can't see beyond their own strong views on an issue."

The difference is they’re the ones talking. You can choose to listen or not listen.

I’m not asking you to listen to me. I’m asking you to listen to them.

Hoekjeness, my friend, you have entirely missed my point.

Empathy. Try it. There are many, many important causes worthy of "uncomfortable," protest. You just happen to support this cause and can't/won't see the larger picture/issue beyond it.

Peace, bro! While I question your logic, I respect your passion.

Wow the irony...

The larger picture, you say!? 03-lmfao

Biggest “whoosh” ever.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2018 05:36 PM by Hoekjeness.)
01-09-2018 05:35 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #26
RE: The Golden Globes.
It's the players right to protest, it's our right not to attend their games or watch them on TV.

They're just athletic entertainers, not heroes. We pay for our entertainment, or we choose not to.

Many of them are not too smart, deliberately sticking their thumb into the eye of so many of their paying audience. We don't need them, they need us.

I feel sorry for the ones who 'get it' and know they're killing the goose laying the golden eggs-but I could care less about the rest of them.

Maybe pro football has seen it's zenith and it's a declining interest among American men? There are plenty of other things we can spend our spare time on these days, who needs the added irritation of a bunch of overpaid performers insulting our nation's symbols? They're not indispensible, not by a long shot.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2018 09:48 PM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-09-2018 09:46 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #27
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 09:46 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  who needs the added irritation of a bunch of overpaid performers insulting our nation's symbols?

1) A lot of Americans do. Ones who don’t have a voice.

2) They aren’t insulting our nations “symbols”... they are seeking justice for a group of people whom the flag doesn’t represent.

They are the real patriots.
01-09-2018 10:09 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?
01-09-2018 10:26 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #29
RE: The Golden Globes.
01-10-2018 12:38 AM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #30
RE: The Golden Globes.
You’re seriously citing Breitbart......
01-10-2018 06:07 AM
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ChipfanII Offline
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Post: #31
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 10:09 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 09:46 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  who needs the added irritation of a bunch of overpaid performers insulting our nation's symbols?

1) A lot of Americans do. Ones who don’t have a voice.

2) They aren’t insulting our nations “symbols”... they are seeking justice for a group of people whom the flag doesn’t represent.

They are the real patriots.

+1
01-10-2018 07:17 AM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 09:29 AM by Boca Rocket.)
01-10-2018 09:28 AM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #33
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

I'm afraid it's a lot more complicated than that.

Why are blacks incarcerated more than 5x the rate of whites?

1 in every 15 African American men and 1 in every 36 Hispanic men are incarcerated in comparison to 1 in every 106 white men.

African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.

Incarceration is today's version of Jim Crow.

Once you start to accept these things and recognize the REAL social injustices in this country, you start to understand why a black athlete with a huge platform feels compelled to speak out.
01-10-2018 09:44 AM
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #34
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

Chris Rock has an irreverent, and poor-taste-funny, take on this matter. If nothing else, it will lighten up this thread, somewhat.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEvMc-K8XHY
01-10-2018 10:12 AM
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brovol Offline
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Post: #35
RE: The Golden Globes.
I don't want to jump into this discussion too much, as you all know I have trouble ending a debate. I will say though that folks (be it famous folks or commoners like you and me) who want to protest, or send a message about their beliefs, could express themselves more genuinely if they simply attacked what they believe is bad, as opposed to urinating on the American flag, or those other things which represent America, the principles and values of America, and those people who sacrificed so much to obtain and protect those principals which distinguished America as an albeit imperfect, but nevertheless a land with a foundation built on moral, just and fair concepts like freedom, individual liberty, free enterprise, separation of powers, and freedom of expression.

And, while free speech is great, if goes both ways, and it must in order to remain good. Those who oppose racists, for example, must not loose sight of the fact that the first amendment also protects an individuals right to be racists in his/her beliefs, and express themselves accordingly. We are all also allowed to hate each other, and share reasons why you hate if you choose to do so.

Those who protest the "flag" or "national anthem" may do so, but those who do illustrate primarily the shallowness of their understanding of the issues, as by doing so they are opposing freedom and liberty, while at the same time insulting all those who believe in these values and who have sacrificed themselves to protect those things for generations dating back to pilgrims who fled oppressive countries to find a new land where freedom could be taken for granted. America, it's Constitution, American values and its symbols are not the problems. If you have an issue worthy of protest, than protest that issue or thing. Don't condemn the very thing which is contemporaneously providing the luxury of protest. And if you do, understand that doing so will, to all those who enjoy intellect and understanding, expose you as someone who does not really know what you are saying or doing.

Bad people will always exist; racist, bigots, mean spirited morons, and others. Good people also exist. And, while the founding fathers had some personal flaws, they drafted as perfect a constitution as ever could have been made, and it is timeless. This is a country which went into civil war with each other, and eliminated the horror of slavery at the cost of so many, and although bad politicians have always existed, we have managed for generation upon generation to maintain peaceful transition of leaders, who have had extremely different views and philosophies.

If someone wants to criticize America, than they should be allowed to do so for sure. But are you really criticizing America, or something else you don't like which is just happening in America? There is a difference. Our government isn't our daddy. The government is supposed to be "limited", and minimalist. People too often lose sight of this though, and leaders do too. I will save that lecture for our next lesson, but suffice to say that protesting that "the government" needs to do more to combat "racism" , for example, is a protest against free thought and expression. It would be like someone protesting for the government to outlaw certain religions, or political views.

The other beautiful thing about America is that we dont lock people in. Freedom extends to the option of leaving the country if and whenever you believe someplace else is better. If you choose to stay, because weighing it all out you still conclude that, even considering the pimples, sores and other blemishes, America is still the greatest and most equitable place on earth, then honor it by at least respecting the things which symbolize what makes it so great that we all want to stay.
01-10-2018 10:43 AM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #36
RE: The Golden Globes.
The flag is an inanimate object. It represents those values and principles that you reference. What if the flag isn't actually representing those things you mention (equality, freedom, justice, etc.) for every American, as it was intended to do? That is the overarching message. I'm going to assume that most of us here are white middle class males who were born into privilege (whether we're aware of that or not) and have never experienced an injustice of our basic rights. Now talk to a black individual and see how they feel.

Not saying everyone has to agree with the protest, but the problem is that people who are against it aren't even listening to what the protest is really about... and that's a problem. This whole narrative created about "disrespecting the flag" is a red herring and has absolutely nothing to do with the protests. A little bit of perspective; there are a lot of countries that force you to listen to the national anthem, stand at attention, salute the flag at all costs, etc. and if you don't, you are persecuted (examples: Nazi Germany, North Korea). We are lucky to not have to live in one of these autocratic societies. You just can't have it both ways.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 12:57 PM by Hoekjeness.)
01-10-2018 12:52 PM
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brovol Offline
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Post: #37
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-10-2018 12:52 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  The flag is an inanimate object. It represents those values and principles that you reference. What if the flag isn't actually representing those things you mention (equality, freedom, justice, etc.) for every American, as it was intended to do? That is the overarching message. I'm going to assume that most of us here are white middle class males who were born into privilege (whether we're aware of that or not) and have never experienced an injustice of our basic rights. Now talk to a black individual and see how they feel.

Not saying everyone has to agree with the protest, but the problem is that people who are against it aren't even listening to what the protest is really about... and that's a problem. This whole narrative created about "disrespecting the flag" is a red herring and has absolutely nothing to do with the protests. A little bit of perspective; there are a lot of countries that force you to listen to the national anthem, stand at attention, salute the flag at all costs, etc. and if you don't, you are persecuted (examples: Nazi Germany, North Korea). We are lucky to not have to live in one of these autocratic societies. You just can't have it both ways.

The flag is a symbol of America. That is what it represents, just as flags represent other nations. If your problem is racial profiling, or cops beating up innocent people, then protest those thing, which are illegal in America, and the vast majority of Americans condemn. If you are protesting the attitudes, dispositions, or the actions of government officials, then identify your issue, substantiate it, and speak out against it. More importantly, because America also guarantees democracy, advocate for change and vote bad people out of office.

Hoek, love you bro, but you kind of make my point when you say, "disrespecting the flag is a red herring and has absolutely nothing to do with the protests". You are right! And you are also right to point out that many other countries and governments (who are worthy of protest) require its citizens to salute the flag regardless of what it stands for, and regardless of the tyrannical rule those citizens are under. Because America is what it is, and the protections and liberties that it provides, people CAN do whatever they wish to do while the national anthem is played. That is a right they have, just like so many others which have been earned and preserved on the backs and blood of so many others; including not just the founding fathers who risked hanging to secure independence a constitutional democracy, and everything in the Bill of Rights, but also Martin Luther King, who fought so hard, and died, establishing civil rights and equality in the law. Americans now have little sense or appreciation for these concepts and take too much for granted. These are the things that today's NFL kneelers are protesting. Please compare the US to the rights that other nations guarantee their citizens.

At West Point my son, with all the other Cadets and soldiers, jumps to attention during Reveille, which occurs when the flag is raised and lowered. A bugle plays and the Cadets salute from wherever they are standing. When this happened the first time I visited my son at West Point I was surprised, but also quite choked up. Those Cadets and soldiers know that all is not perfect, but they honor and respect the principles, the values, and those that fought before them, just as they hope others will do for them one day. To kneel at the anthem and flag is akin to when the Vietnam vets were treated poorly upon arriving home from the war. People are angry at something or things that some people have done so they take it out on something or someone else. The flag, the anthem, those soldiers, and America deserves more than that.

Just because you have the right to kneel doesnt mean you should.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 02:32 PM by brovol.)
01-10-2018 02:27 PM
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Bronco XXVIII Offline
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Post: #38
RE: The Golden Globes.
I just don't understand how 'kneeling' during the anthem of a football game ='s going to curb police brutality.

- In the off-season, why don't NFL players organize a large march for awareness?
- Have a few summits with police departments around the country that have the largest minority populations?
That is 2 quick ideas just for starters from my dumb-a**. They certainly have the clout and would get plenty of coverage.

It looks hypocritical for millionaire athletes to be protesting while on the clock for a private employer.
01-10-2018 05:59 PM
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Chipdip2 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-09-2018 12:19 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 09:56 AM)GullLake Wrote:  You are the one completely missing the point.

And it has NOTHING to do with the issue being protested.

Wrong.

They are the ones protesting, not you. You don't get to decide their message.

It's a shame people such as yourself don't take the time to listen. I'm guessing you have the privilege to do so.

Ohhh Persrod’s a SJW 03-lmfao

“Privilege?” Whats his privilege?
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 06:49 PM by Chipdip2.)
01-10-2018 06:09 PM
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Chipdip2 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: The Golden Globes.
(01-10-2018 10:12 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 09:28 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 10:26 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  Empathy. Try it.

The black community lives with injustice on a daily basis.

A black man — against popular (white male) opinion — uses his platform to express those feelings and give the black community a voice.

And you think I’m the one who doesn’t understand empathy?

17.1 million Non-Hispanic White people in the US live below the poverty line, compared to 9.2 million African Americans. 11.1 million Hispanics and 700,000 Native Americans also live below the poverty line. Economic growth/Employment opportunities and Education go a long way towards solving many of our problems as a nation.

Chris Rock has an irreverent, and poor-taste-funny, take on this matter. If nothing else, it will lighten up this thread, somewhat.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEvMc-K8XHY

Rock’s satire is spot on, which is why it’s so funny.

As a teacher we tried to teach kids how to own up to their actions. Many took the advice and found that the consequence were limited and fair. Others would lie lie deny, and occasionally get physically violent........never seemed to work out for them 03-yes
01-10-2018 06:25 PM
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