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MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
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Post: #361
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:07 AM)odu09 Wrote:  Oh, and Haynes > Talley. But I don't think that's a controversial take.

2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.
01-12-2018 01:06 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?
01-12-2018 01:11 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:07 AM)odu09 Wrote:  Oh, and Haynes > Talley. But I don't think that's a controversial take.

2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.
01-12-2018 01:11 PM
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Post: #364
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

Give me the guy who wants the ball. Talley disappeared way too often.
01-12-2018 01:18 PM
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Post: #365
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:07 AM)odu09 Wrote:  Oh, and Haynes > Talley. But I don't think that's a controversial take.

2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.
Is he still better offensively if you factor in assists and turnovers?

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01-12-2018 01:18 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 06:52 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  The problem is conditioning. For some reason, BJ, Caver, and Haynes are so out of shape they can't hit shots down the stretch in tough games. Even some of our wins were the result of barely holding onto a big lead. It is almost like we have to build a 10 point coushin against a bad team and a 20 point coushin to beat a good team.

The exception was W&M, but that game wasn't tough per se in the fact that W&M didn't play strong defense.

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uhhh......what?
BJ hit something like 14-15 against W&M including 3 big ones in the last 2 minutes. He clearly wasn't gassed in that one, but W&M doesn't play physical defense. Those that do have exposed our lack of depth in the 2nd half.

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01-12-2018 01:21 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

I will take the one who is willing to shoot and force someone to guard him every time.
01-12-2018 01:22 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:18 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.
Is he still better offensively if you factor in assists and turnovers?

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Talley has a higher assist percentage and lower turnover rate.
01-12-2018 01:25 PM
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Post: #369
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:18 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

Give me the guy who wants the ball. Talley disappeared way too often.

Im not sure this is a logical criticism. Talley had an absurdly high usage rate last year (30%). Haynes was at 23% last year and 24% this year. (in theory, 20% would be average). I mean, the offense in the last 8 mins of every game last year was iso Talley and have him drive in from the wing.
01-12-2018 01:28 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:25 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:18 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.
Is he still better offensively if you factor in assists and turnovers?

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Talley has a higher assist percentage and lower turnover rate.
A little surprising, but thanks.

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01-12-2018 01:30 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:22 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

I will take the one who is willing to shoot and force someone to guard him every time.

I understand this argument, and I think it's fair, but Haynes takes some of the worst shots in basketball. At least three times last night, he took shots with one foot on the three point line (he made one of them).

I'd like to have a guy who can take (and make) good shots in the flow of the offense and is willing to pass it up and move it along to the next guy, if he doesn't have a good look.
01-12-2018 01:33 PM
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Post: #372
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:28 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:18 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

Give me the guy who wants the ball. Talley disappeared way too often.

Im not sure this is a logical criticism. Talley had an absurdly high usage rate last year (30%). Haynes was at 23% last year and 24% this year. (in theory, 20% would be average). I mean, the offense in the last 8 mins of every game last year was iso Talley and have him drive in from the wing.

Look at Talley's scoring logs from last year. He had 7 games where he scored 6 points or fewer with that "absurdly high" usage rate.
01-12-2018 02:59 PM
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Post: #373
RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:07 AM)odu09 Wrote:  Oh, and Haynes > Talley. But I don't think that's a controversial take.

2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.

Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.
01-12-2018 03:07 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:28 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:18 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

Give me the guy who wants the ball. Talley disappeared way too often.

Im not sure this is a logical criticism. Talley had an absurdly high usage rate last year (30%). Haynes was at 23% last year and 24% this year. (in theory, 20% would be average). I mean, the offense in the last 8 mins of every game last year was iso Talley and have him drive in from the wing.

And how did that work out for us?
01-12-2018 03:08 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 01:33 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:22 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Is it better to have a wing who won't shoot beyond 15 feet or a wing who shoots 32% from inside the arc and 26% beyond it?

I will take the one who is willing to shoot and force someone to guard him every time.

I understand this argument, and I think it's fair, but Haynes takes some of the worst shots in basketball. At least three times last night, he took shots with one foot on the three point line (he made one of them).

I'd like to have a guy who can take (and make) good shots in the flow of the offense and is willing to pass it up and move it along to the next guy, if he doesn't have a good look.

Your points are fair, but I don't think either one of them is the guy you described in your last paragraph. One has a big downside in that he is willing to take shots, but some are bad and he doesn't make a tremendous percentage of them, and one is unwilling to even entertain the idea of shooting the ball from beyond 15 feet, to the extent that the opponent does not guard him. I think the effect of Talley's shortcomings cascade to make it more difficult for the players around him to score, whereas Haynes's shortcomings are a bit more isolated.

Obviously, neither of them is ideal, and I actually think I would be quite happy with Talley if he was playing the 4, but as a 3 on a team that doesn't shoot great to begin with, I think his lack of diversity kills the offense.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 03:14 PM by Monarchblue.)
01-12-2018 03:13 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 08:28 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  2 different players and not a fair comparison.

Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.

Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.

Then this should show up in Talleys on/off court numbers, right?
01-12-2018 03:15 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Yeah, Talley is a much better offensive player that can iso and get points on his own. Haynes is a better defender and probably better in transition.

Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.

Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.

Then this should show up in Talleys on/off court numbers, right?

As you should know, that would depend on what the rotations looked like. Who was typically on the floor when he was/wasn't. There are a lot of variables. It also is affected by the fact that we had NOBODY behind him. It is not like we were replacing him with studs.
01-12-2018 03:19 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 03:19 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Yeah. In your imaginary world. In the reality that we watched the last couple years, Haynes is a better offensive player.


Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.

Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.

Then this should show up in Talleys on/off court numbers, right?

As you should know, that would depend on what the rotations looked like. Who was typically on the floor when he was/wasn't. There are a lot of variables. It also is affected by the fact that we had NOBODY behind him. It is not like we were replacing him with studs.

What do you mean, we had Randy Haynes replacing him last year?
01-12-2018 03:22 PM
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 03:22 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:19 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 01:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Haynes- 35% FG%, 27% 3P%, 21 points per 100 possessions, 11.3 PER, 12% Turnover rate, 93.5 Offensive rating.

Talley- 46% FG%, 13% 3P%, 25 points per 100 possessions, 16.3 PER, 10.8 turnover rate, 103.8 Offensive Rating.

It's not even a borderline argument. Talley is a far superior offensive player. Even if you ignore Randy's numbers last year and use this year as a comparison to Talley's career numbers (including freshman year and Iowa State numbers), Talley's are superior.

Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.

Then this should show up in Talleys on/off court numbers, right?

As you should know, that would depend on what the rotations looked like. Who was typically on the floor when he was/wasn't. There are a lot of variables. It also is affected by the fact that we had NOBODY behind him. It is not like we were replacing him with studs.

What do you mean, we had Randy Haynes replacing him last year?

Randy Haynes was X Green last year... JJ had destroyed his confidence.
01-12-2018 03:24 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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RE: MBB: WKU Game - Thursday
(01-12-2018 03:24 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:22 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:19 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Except Talley clogs up the paint and affects other players' numbers because people don't need to guard him past 15 feet. Seems you always fail to take a player as a part of the whole into account.

Then this should show up in Talleys on/off court numbers, right?

As you should know, that would depend on what the rotations looked like. Who was typically on the floor when he was/wasn't. There are a lot of variables. It also is affected by the fact that we had NOBODY behind him. It is not like we were replacing him with studs.

What do you mean, we had Randy Haynes replacing him last year?

Randy Haynes was X Green last year... JJ had destroyed his confidence.

Then why did he shoot so much last year and why did he continue that into this year?

I would be for Jones destroying Haynes confidence in his 3 point shot.
01-12-2018 03:33 PM
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