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Big home run
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Big home run
(01-10-2018 11:59 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Hey, I understand that money talks-----but in this case, both parties dumped a potentially huge money making game that didnt have to go away. Inexplicable.

I'll never agree that college leaders know more about how to manage and make money for any part of it better than any run-of-the-mill shmo. And schools walking away from what pretty much is some of the lowest-hanging fruit, like these games, only plants my feet more steadfast.

And it trickles up. Conferences should be telling these schools when potentially vetting or onboarding them to keep what they can with certain schools, as the money and interest finds its way back to the group.

Maryland, fwiw, while a slam dunk name, I feel really comes to the Big Ten heavily damaged because of how it practically ruined its relationships with all of these ACC schools. And for the Big Ten, if there ever is a day where other ACC schools would consider the Big Ten, associating with UMD is going to be an issue. As is, UMD doesn't bring in non-conference interest with the top of the ACC...and that's kind of what made UMD what it is athletically.
01-11-2018 10:54 AM
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Pensionplug Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Big home run
(01-11-2018 10:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:59 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Hey, I understand that money talks-----but in this case, both parties dumped a potentially huge money making game that didnt have to go away. Inexplicable.

I'll never agree that college leaders know more about how to manage and make money for any part of it better than any run-of-the-mill shmo. And schools walking away from what pretty much is some of the lowest-hanging fruit, like these games, only plants my feet more steadfast.

And it trickles up. Conferences should be telling these schools when potentially vetting or onboarding them to keep what they can with certain schools, as the money and interest finds its way back to the group.

Maryland, fwiw, while a slam dunk name, I feel really comes to the Big Ten heavily damaged because of how it practically ruined its relationships with all of these ACC schools. And for the Big Ten, if there ever is a day where other ACC schools would consider the Big Ten, associating with UMD is going to be an issue. As is, UMD doesn't bring in non-conference interest with the top of the ACC...and that's kind of what made UMD what it is athletically.

Ridiculous post. Money trumps all and time heals all wounds. Mainly money
01-13-2018 10:27 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Big home run
(01-13-2018 10:27 AM)Pensionplug Wrote:  Ridiculous post. Money trumps all and time heals all wounds. Mainly money

Totally. I mean, look at West Virginia and the ACC and SEC. Ridiculous, right?

Funny comment coming from a PAC-12 school fan and who couldn't make it in that club over the years...
01-13-2018 11:07 PM
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Post: #64
RE: Big home run
(01-11-2018 10:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Maryland, fwiw, while a slam dunk name, I feel really comes to the Big Ten heavily damaged because of how it practically ruined its relationships with all of these ACC schools. And for the Big Ten, if there ever is a day where other ACC schools would consider the Big Ten, associating with UMD is going to be an issue. As is, UMD doesn't bring in non-conference interest with the top of the ACC...and that's kind of what made UMD what it is athletically.
The ACC would take back Maryland in a New York minute. The only aggrieved person in the ACC is Coach K.

Regarding Maryland's OOC scheduling, I think the administration chooses not to schedule ACC schools, fearing blowback from supporters who still miss the ACC. I have a lot of co-workers, older UMD grads, who still disapprove of the move. I also know many t-shirts fans who no longer care about the Terps.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 11:28 PM by NJ2MDTerp.)
01-13-2018 11:26 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Big home run
(01-13-2018 11:26 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 10:54 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Maryland, fwiw, while a slam dunk name, I feel really comes to the Big Ten heavily damaged because of how it practically ruined its relationships with all of these ACC schools. And for the Big Ten, if there ever is a day where other ACC schools would consider the Big Ten, associating with UMD is going to be an issue. As is, UMD doesn't bring in non-conference interest with the top of the ACC...and that's kind of what made UMD what it is athletically.
The ACC would take back Maryland in a New York minute. The only aggrieved person in the ACC is Coach K.

Regarding Maryland's OOC scheduling, I think the administration chooses not to schedule ACC schools, fearing blowback from supporters who still miss the ACC. I have a lot of co-workers, older UMD grads, who still disapprove of the move. I also know many t-shirts fans who no longer care about the Terps.

Maryland took the money and ran. Sure, Terps fans had a love-hate relationship with the ACC. But even the "hate" part had some love - they loved to hate how the refs and the conference officials seemed to stack the deck in favor of the Carolina schools, Duke and UNC most of all.

The B1G is just not the same: If you grew up in the DC area like i did in the 1970s, the answer to "who was Maryland's rival in the old ACC?" was ... everyone. UNC, Duke, sure but also NC State, Virginia, Wake Forest, Clemson ... the whole conference was one big rivalry.

Football realignment ruined all that, and half of the ruination came before Maryland even left the ACC, with the addition of the Florida schools and the Big East schools that changed its tight-knit character.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 12:13 AM by quo vadis.)
01-14-2018 12:12 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Big home run
(01-14-2018 12:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Football realignment ruined all that, and half of the ruination came before Maryland even left the ACC, with the addition of the Florida schools and the Big East schools that changed its tight-knit character.

You had schools who didn't want expansion. You had the conference taking a few and then wanting, but being denied, a waiver to get a CCG with a certain number of schools below the NCAA-mandated number, forcing the acquisition of more schools. State politicians forcing the acquisition of a member. You recently had the conference wanting CCG participant control outside of the approved structure.

Say what one will about the ACC and it destroying the Big East, the ACC was sort of forced to do things when it knew what it wanted otherwise. The NCAA wouldn't budge on some of those things, and what we have now is kind of the result.

But, to really sympathize, maybe the conference doesn't take Miami in the grab and makes it about Cuse and BC or bust and leaves Miami out. That the ACC, in the 80's and through the 90's just didn't want anything to do with Miami, to making sure they got them ahead of BC or Cuse...something really must have changed, and it wasn't UMFL's culture.
01-14-2018 01:09 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Big home run
(01-14-2018 01:09 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-14-2018 12:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Football realignment ruined all that, and half of the ruination came before Maryland even left the ACC, with the addition of the Florida schools and the Big East schools that changed its tight-knit character.

You had schools who didn't want expansion. You had the conference taking a few and then wanting, but being denied, a waiver to get a CCG with a certain number of schools below the NCAA-mandated number, forcing the acquisition of more schools. State politicians forcing the acquisition of a member. You recently had the conference wanting CCG participant control outside of the approved structure.

Say what one will about the ACC and it destroying the Big East, the ACC was sort of forced to do things when it knew what it wanted otherwise. The NCAA wouldn't budge on some of those things, and what we have now is kind of the result.

But, to really sympathize, maybe the conference doesn't take Miami in the grab and makes it about Cuse and BC or bust and leaves Miami out. That the ACC, in the 80's and through the 90's just didn't want anything to do with Miami, to making sure they got them ahead of BC or Cuse...something really must have changed, and it wasn't UMFL's culture.

The critical event was Notre Dame signing their own TV deal in 1990. That spawned the modern football-centric age we live in as it made it clear that conferences** were going to become the vehicle for TV money and exposure. It meant that conferences were going to have to be much more individually entrepreneurial in building their value, and would team up to do so when they could. It meant that football's full value was going to be unlocked in a way it hadn't been before. It is what gave impetus to the SEC adopting a title game and adding SC and Arkansas, The B1G pursuing Penn State, and the coming of the Bowl Alliance. The ACC responded with the addition of FSU in 1992. There was a split in the ACC about that, but an argument was made that with the coming of the Bowl Alliance, the ACC desperately needed to beef up its football to be relevant in that environment, and that carried the day. To those who were far-sighted it was clear that in the future, Power would go to those conferences with football appeal.

Was adding FSU prescient and correct? Absolutely. If the ACC doesn't add FSU, it might be a basketball-only conference like the Big East or more likely, dismembered by the B1G and SEC as its lack of football relevance would have caused them to fall behind badly in revenue making those leagues tempting to even core members.

In short, the ACC is a fully-relevant, secure, Power, big-money conference these days because it added FSU, and then Miami and the rest. IMO, the ACC made these moves on its own volition, not under compulsion by the NCAA or TV, save in the general sense that they correctly sensed the direction that college athletics was moving in - decisively to football - and responded.

But it nevertheless destroyed the tight-knit basketball conference that you could drive from one end of to the other in about eight hours that many of us grew up with.

** Ironic, because of course ND wasn't in a conference.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 09:10 AM by quo vadis.)
01-14-2018 09:01 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Big home run
(01-14-2018 01:09 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-14-2018 12:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Football realignment ruined all that, and half of the ruination came before Maryland even left the ACC, with the addition of the Florida schools and the Big East schools that changed its tight-knit character.

You had schools who didn't want expansion. You had the conference taking a few and then wanting, but being denied, a waiver to get a CCG with a certain number of schools below the NCAA-mandated number, forcing the acquisition of more schools. State politicians forcing the acquisition of a member. You recently had the conference wanting CCG participant control outside of the approved structure.

Say what one will about the ACC and it destroying the Big East, the ACC was sort of forced to do things when it knew what it wanted otherwise. The NCAA wouldn't budge on some of those things, and what we have now is kind of the result.

But, to really sympathize, maybe the conference doesn't take Miami in the grab and makes it about Cuse and BC or bust and leaves Miami out. That the ACC, in the 80's and through the 90's just didn't want anything to do with Miami, to making sure they got them ahead of BC or Cuse...something really must have changed, and it wasn't UMFL's culture.

Miami basketball was nonexistent throughout part of the 80's, and when I say nonexistent, I mean it literally did not exist. The vote wasn't unanimous to allow FSU in at first, and they had a moderately successful basketball program at the time and had been to a Final 4. So imagine what the blue bloods thought of Hurricanes basketball?

The Big East knew it needed Miami for the football schools and made a sacrifice to invite the upstart Hurricanes basketball program too. It was a win-win for the Big East and Miami.

For the record, the ACC was interested in Miami (so was the SEC and I believe even the SWC, or at least a scheduling alliance), but expansion was so slow moving at that time that the powers that be didn't pull the trigger on the Canes for 10 years or so later.
01-14-2018 12:32 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Big home run
(01-14-2018 12:32 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-14-2018 01:09 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-14-2018 12:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Football realignment ruined all that, and half of the ruination came before Maryland even left the ACC, with the addition of the Florida schools and the Big East schools that changed its tight-knit character.

You had schools who didn't want expansion. You had the conference taking a few and then wanting, but being denied, a waiver to get a CCG with a certain number of schools below the NCAA-mandated number, forcing the acquisition of more schools. State politicians forcing the acquisition of a member. You recently had the conference wanting CCG participant control outside of the approved structure.

Say what one will about the ACC and it destroying the Big East, the ACC was sort of forced to do things when it knew what it wanted otherwise. The NCAA wouldn't budge on some of those things, and what we have now is kind of the result.

But, to really sympathize, maybe the conference doesn't take Miami in the grab and makes it about Cuse and BC or bust and leaves Miami out. That the ACC, in the 80's and through the 90's just didn't want anything to do with Miami, to making sure they got them ahead of BC or Cuse...something really must have changed, and it wasn't UMFL's culture.

Miami basketball was nonexistent throughout part of the 80's, and when I say nonexistent, I mean it literally did not exist.

Yeah but then .... Tito Horford. 07-coffee3
01-14-2018 12:47 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Big home run
(01-14-2018 12:32 PM)esayem Wrote:  For the record, the ACC was interested in Miami (so was the SEC and I believe even the SWC, or at least a scheduling alliance), but expansion was so slow moving at that time that the powers that be didn't pull the trigger on the Canes for 10 years or so later.

I don't know if the ACC was that interested. As you noted, UMFL only restarted its basketball, and the ACC wasn't really interested in the risk of a bad program in that sport plus a potential NCAA violation lifer with UMFL football. FSU was more palatable for both, though, yeah, it wasn't like they were that well loved.

With the Big East, and this obviously included Miami, the rifts and identity thing were always a part of it. You had some founding members even saying its purpose was to serve as a northeastern version of ACC basketball. It's not a hard leap to make that you'd see so many Big East schools jumping over. But, Miami...while it may have been only a matter of time to some, man, Florida State looked like the kind of move that said "no, we don't need Miami...and we never will." No doubt there was some support for the Canes...clearly didn't have enough. To me, tapping the Seminoles always looked like the ACC was putting Miami on ice to see if the school would end up like SMU.

Funny to think about the SEC's place in that era. They wanted Miami pretty badly.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2018 11:00 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-15-2018 10:58 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Big home run
Like HoD said, it's really too early to tell. I'd guess its going to take a generation for those ACC ties to wither into irrelevancy while simultaneously strengthening the affinity for the B1G. I do have two questions though:

1. Does UMD move if it wasn't in financial peril?
2. Was that peril purposely orchestrated?
01-16-2018 09:40 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Big home run
(01-16-2018 09:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  2. Was that peril purposely orchestrated?

I think the more appropriate question is, was the financial peril overstated to justify the move?

And, no. Because UMD shuttered programs. And Big Ten money is only going to resurrect one of those, with the others not even on a timeline.

It just costs too much to field large athletic departments in the northeastern corridor when you have football. UMD slashed programs. Rutgers runs on the cheap (and may continue to for a very long time). Temple finally cut into its programs.
01-17-2018 10:25 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Big home run
(01-17-2018 10:25 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 09:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  2. Was that peril purposely orchestrated?

I think the more appropriate question is, was the financial peril overstated to justify the move?

And, no. Because UMD shuttered programs. And Big Ten money is only going to resurrect one of those, with the others not even on a timeline.

It just costs too much to field large athletic departments in the northeastern corridor when you have football. UMD slashed programs. Rutgers runs on the cheap (and may continue to for a very long time). Temple finally cut into its programs.

I agree that is probably the better ask. It seemed to me as though UMD's decision was made well ahead time.
01-17-2018 11:14 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Big home run
(01-17-2018 11:14 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  It seemed to me as though UMD's decision was made well ahead time.

It does, especially if one believes higher ed changes are glacial, and that these "surprises" aren't really surprises at all. I can't see a different president, kind of new on the job, just saying something kind of off the hip at an AAU meeting, and then all of the sudden, moving onto "serious negotiations" and the whole BoT hijacking.

However, going back to this 2012 article on UMD's move, the matter was extremely out of character. From leaving out faculty counsel to the closed vote, this wasn't an ordinary move. Maybe it was sudden?

The only people who are going tell the whole story really probably never will. Probably a red flag, but, that's a different story.
01-17-2018 02:41 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Big home run
(01-17-2018 02:41 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 11:14 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  It seemed to me as though UMD's decision was made well ahead time.

It does, especially if one believes higher ed changes are glacial, and that these "surprises" aren't really surprises at all. I can't see a different president, kind of new on the job, just saying something kind of off the hip at an AAU meeting, and then all of the sudden, moving onto "serious negotiations" and the whole BoT hijacking.

However, going back to this 2012 article on UMD's move, the matter was extremely out of character. From leaving out faculty counsel to the closed vote, this wasn't an ordinary move. Maybe it was sudden?

The only people who are going tell the whole story really probably never will. Probably a red flag, but, that's a different story.

Pretty simple explanation: How does a charter member of the ACC have a long, drawn-out, public process of debate and discussion about leaving the ACC and joining the B1G? It would be highly embarrassing for everyone.

These decisions will always be made behind closed doors, and quickly. And if they are proceeded by some kind of protracted negotiations, those will be behind the scenes, hush-hush.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 04:42 PM by quo vadis.)
01-17-2018 04:41 PM
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RE: Big home run
(01-17-2018 04:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Pretty simple explanation: How does a charter member of the ACC have a long, drawn-out, public process of debate and discussion about leaving the ACC and joining the B1G? It would be highly embarrassing for everyone.

These decisions will always be made behind closed doors, and quickly. And if they are proceeded by some kind of protracted negotiations, those will be behind the scenes, hush-hush.

What's simple about it when a move isn't universally desired or seen as beneficial? The things Penn State (who had about a decade to work on the move), Nebraska (about a century), and Rutgers (since the 90's?) had going for them was faculty support behind the moves. It's not embarrassing for the university. It's embarrassing for the President, who did the negotiations, and the Board who endorsed it...in a closed session. I mean, the move was embarrassing enough that the school had to invest a few million in PR to defend it. And, rightfully, academic journals picked up on the marginalization of the faculty.

And the board gagging is just bad form in general. Whether or not UMS will later have your back, it's terrible precedent. And, that's probably why faculty were so upset...it's a terrible, untrustworthy culture it evokes. And maybe it is.
01-18-2018 06:06 AM
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Post: #77
RE: Big home run
(01-18-2018 06:06 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 04:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Pretty simple explanation: How does a charter member of the ACC have a long, drawn-out, public process of debate and discussion about leaving the ACC and joining the B1G? It would be highly embarrassing for everyone.

These decisions will always be made behind closed doors, and quickly. And if they are proceeded by some kind of protracted negotiations, those will be behind the scenes, hush-hush.

What's simple about it when a move isn't universally desired or seen as beneficial? The things Penn State (who had about a decade to work on the move), Nebraska (about a century), and Rutgers (since the 90's?) had going for them was faculty support behind the moves. It's not embarrassing for the university. It's embarrassing for the President, who did the negotiations, and the Board who endorsed it...in a closed session. I mean, the move was embarrassing enough that the school had to invest a few million in PR to defend it. And, rightfully, academic journals picked up on the marginalization of the faculty.

And the board gagging is just bad form in general. Whether or not UMS will later have your back, it's terrible precedent. And, that's probably why faculty were so upset...it's a terrible, untrustworthy culture it evokes. And maybe it is.

Seriously? What if for a year or so, FSU was publicly negotiating with the SEC for membership. You don't think that wouldn't be embarrassing in terms of how it interacts with its current partners in the ACC, and wouldn't cause acrimony? And then what if the negotiations fall through and they remain in the ACC. Hard feelings, anyone? Absolutely.

As for the internal angle, I'm faculty, and strongly defensive of faculty prerogatives and input when it comes to administrative decisions. In the past, I've served on our Faculty Senate and long ago learned to keep a sharp eye out for administrative maneuvers.

But conference affiliation is essentially an athletic issue. If my administration decided to move us from conference A to conference B, I might have strong feelings about that as a fan of our athletic teams, but it wouldn't bother me at all that the Faculty Senate wasn't consulted with, as it is not an academic issue. Any faculty at MD who are angry about a lack of input got angry over very little IMO, and aren't picking their battles correctly.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2018 11:05 AM by quo vadis.)
01-18-2018 10:59 AM
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RE: Big home run
(01-07-2018 09:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Big Ten needs Nebraska to return to national prominence. It needs that western division to become a triad of strong Husker, Hawkeye, and Badger programs to counterbalance the 4 strong eastern schools. Adding Oklahoma would also lend credibility to the west as well.

Nebraska needs to schedule its 3 OOC games in Oklahoma and Texas every year to so it can recruit in the SW again where it once recruited. It has lost that SW pipeline since moving to the B-10 and is competing in the rust belt with the rest of the old B-10 schools for players. It needs old rivalries with Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and OK St on its schedule rotating them through every year with H&H's, and games with AAC and CUSA Texas and Oklahoma schools filling in when they can't get the P5 schools on board to re-establish that pipe line for SW recruits the other B-10 schools can't bring on board. 04-cheers
01-18-2018 11:31 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Big home run
(01-18-2018 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-18-2018 06:06 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 04:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Pretty simple explanation: How does a charter member of the ACC have a long, drawn-out, public process of debate and discussion about leaving the ACC and joining the B1G? It would be highly embarrassing for everyone.

These decisions will always be made behind closed doors, and quickly. And if they are proceeded by some kind of protracted negotiations, those will be behind the scenes, hush-hush.

What's simple about it when a move isn't universally desired or seen as beneficial? The things Penn State (who had about a decade to work on the move), Nebraska (about a century), and Rutgers (since the 90's?) had going for them was faculty support behind the moves. It's not embarrassing for the university. It's embarrassing for the President, who did the negotiations, and the Board who endorsed it...in a closed session. I mean, the move was embarrassing enough that the school had to invest a few million in PR to defend it. And, rightfully, academic journals picked up on the marginalization of the faculty.

And the board gagging is just bad form in general. Whether or not UMS will later have your back, it's terrible precedent. And, that's probably why faculty were so upset...it's a terrible, untrustworthy culture it evokes. And maybe it is.

Seriously? What if for a year or so, FSU was publicly negotiating with the SEC for membership. You don't think that wouldn't be embarrassing in terms of how it interacts with its current partners in the ACC, and wouldn't cause acrimony? And then what if the negotiations fall through and they remain in the ACC. Hard feelings, anyone? Absolutely.

As for the internal angle, I'm faculty, and strongly defensive of faculty prerogatives and input when it comes to administrative decisions. In the past, I've served on our Faculty Senate and long ago learned to keep a sharp eye out for administrative maneuvers.

But conference affiliation is essentially an athletic issue. If my administration decided to move us from conference A to conference B, I might have strong feelings about that as a fan of our athletic teams, but it wouldn't bother me at all that the Faculty Senate wasn't consulted with, as it is not an academic issue. Any faculty at MD who are angry about a lack of input got angry over very little IMO, and aren't picking their battles correctly.

I don't disagree with that last paragraph, except when your leadership is praising the academic prestige of conference affiliation in an official release, and saying there would be transformational cultural benefits from the new affiliation; now you're talking for me. I would find that pretty reprehensible if that became part of the official college message when the decision was kept completely away from faculty. If you keep it about sports, about what athletic possibilities you get when you pair UMD football with Michigan and Ohio State, or hoops with Indiana and Michigan State, and just that...but that's not what UMD did. Stay in your lane, and you're good, I would think. UMD didn't, and the faculty were quick to speak out accordingly.

I can't speak for how school representatives conduct themselves with conference colleagues. We get snippets and quotes here and there from angered coaches, wishful AD's, and other folks...it's not them who get the votes. I think the balance issue is tough, but the schools who communicate their frustrations (and that included Florida State), you can still be civil about this stuff. You had Missouri who seemingly didn't handle their business well, but Colorado did.

It's unfortunate the previous administration at Maryland didn't address this matter with the weight it required, but Loh and the Board cut corners to get to their "desired" result. I think it's more the Board than Loh, though. They are supposed to keep Loh in check. This didn't need to get to a gag order, and the Board should have sent a strong message condemning that gesture. Sports shouldn't be this destabilizing to policy and procedure.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2018 12:54 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-18-2018 12:29 PM
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