Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #41
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 02:07 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Notre Dame may not like it, but I’d like to see this scheduling:

1. ACC
2. ACC
3. ACC
4. ACC
5. ACC
6. Navy
7. USC
8. Stanford
9. Michigan, Michigan St, Purdue, or Northwestern
10. XII
11. SEC
12. Army OR PAC or B1G (not #7, 8, or 9 above)

That is the model going forward. Swarbrick wants ND to play all five P5 conferences, he calls them "markers", hence recent games with Georgia and Arkansas, for instance.
01-26-2018 06:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #42
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 03:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:05 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-25-2018 10:13 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  You may be right about 2036, but I didn't see any article that updated the year based on the new ACC contract although it's entirely possible I just missed it. Doesn't really matter though as there will come a day where either the ACC is so strong that they will force ND's hand or they will be so weak that they simply collapse and ND will be out of options. The economics of the game will have to change radically for ND to maintain their current situation for another generation.

But anyway, if joining a conference was dumb then the only administrators that know what they're doing reside in South Bend. I don't buy that.

ND's desires are based in tradition and I can respect that, but that's really all it is. It's not rooted in tangible benefit that the school receives from their current modus operandi...unless one counts the freedom to schedule who you want for 7 games a tangible benefit. Perhaps it is on some level, but it's not without it's downside. One of these days ND will be in a league and you Irish fans will realize it was a lot of gnashing of teeth over nothing.

2036.
The ACC is not about "strong arming" any school.
At this point the ACC and Notre Dame have a good symbiotic relationship that is working for the benefit of both, there is no reason for either side to try to take advantage of the other.

At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

The bottom line ATU is why Notre Dame can't afford to join a conference. In the ACC, SEC, or Big 10 all Notre Dame would be is a mid tier program capable of making a run about once a decade. And being locked into that would convince the networks relatively quickly that their brand wasn't worth paying for separately. They can hold onto to their public image with some mystique by not joining anywhere and proving to the world what everyone already knows, they just don't have it anymore, like they had it in the 30' and 40's and again in the 60's and 70's. In the ACC their peers would be Virginia Tech and Miami and they wouldn't touch Clemson or Florida State. In the SEC they would be South Carolina, Tennessee (on its good years), L.S.U. or Auburn. And that's not bad, but it is a far cry from being mythical.

In the Big 10 they would be below Penn State, Ohio State and probably Wisconsin. And they would be on par with Michigan, Michigan State, and Iowa.

There is only one conference where their magic might work again, but the PAC is simply too far away to be feasible.

Even Northeastern sportswriters are positing the position that you are here and they recognize that "if" the ACCN is just 70% as successful as the SECN that Notre Dame will be losing money vs the other ACC full members by maintaining their independence so that eventually the proverbial handwriting will be on the wall.

Terry D. is in the camp at of N.D. followers that want to defiantly say, "No" to affiliation to a conference and I totally get their reason for this. But the divide among Irish faithful takes on the same proportions as the divide in this nation between all generational issues. As Boomers start to die out, the Millennials will have them in a conference faster than you can say scat. As with all of our traditions the Millennials will take the path of least resistance to culture because they don't know our history or our traditions. They are children of the backassward culture of the tube and they haven't a clue as to who they are, let alone their rights and obligations. And they don't give a hoot, or a thought, to the sacrifices of those who went before them, or the integrity that went into them. They have been bred and educated to be corporate slaves.


Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 06:57 PM by TerryD.)
01-26-2018 06:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #43
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:05 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-25-2018 10:13 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  You may be right about 2036, but I didn't see any article that updated the year based on the new ACC contract although it's entirely possible I just missed it. Doesn't really matter though as there will come a day where either the ACC is so strong that they will force ND's hand or they will be so weak that they simply collapse and ND will be out of options. The economics of the game will have to change radically for ND to maintain their current situation for another generation.

But anyway, if joining a conference was dumb then the only administrators that know what they're doing reside in South Bend. I don't buy that.

ND's desires are based in tradition and I can respect that, but that's really all it is. It's not rooted in tangible benefit that the school receives from their current modus operandi...unless one counts the freedom to schedule who you want for 7 games a tangible benefit. Perhaps it is on some level, but it's not without it's downside. One of these days ND will be in a league and you Irish fans will realize it was a lot of gnashing of teeth over nothing.

2036.
The ACC is not about "strong arming" any school.
At this point the ACC and Notre Dame have a good symbiotic relationship that is working for the benefit of both, there is no reason for either side to try to take advantage of the other.

At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.



ND is a full legal member of the ACC. Full. They just don't play football, but legally the same as North Carolina.

This is fantasy on the part of other fans. The ACC is not going to ever do anything regarding ND but the status quo.
01-26-2018 06:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 15,531
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 824
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #44
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 03:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:05 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-25-2018 10:13 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  You may be right about 2036, but I didn't see any article that updated the year based on the new ACC contract although it's entirely possible I just missed it. Doesn't really matter though as there will come a day where either the ACC is so strong that they will force ND's hand or they will be so weak that they simply collapse and ND will be out of options. The economics of the game will have to change radically for ND to maintain their current situation for another generation.

But anyway, if joining a conference was dumb then the only administrators that know what they're doing reside in South Bend. I don't buy that.

ND's desires are based in tradition and I can respect that, but that's really all it is. It's not rooted in tangible benefit that the school receives from their current modus operandi...unless one counts the freedom to schedule who you want for 7 games a tangible benefit. Perhaps it is on some level, but it's not without it's downside. One of these days ND will be in a league and you Irish fans will realize it was a lot of gnashing of teeth over nothing.

2036.
The ACC is not about "strong arming" any school.
At this point the ACC and Notre Dame have a good symbiotic relationship that is working for the benefit of both, there is no reason for either side to try to take advantage of the other.

At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

The bottom line ATU is why Notre Dame can't afford to join a conference. In the ACC, SEC, or Big 10 all Notre Dame would be is a mid tier program capable of making a run about once a decade. And being locked into that would convince the networks relatively quickly that their brand wasn't worth paying for separately. They can hold onto to their public image with some mystique by not joining anywhere and proving to the world what everyone already knows, they just don't have it anymore, like they had it in the 30' and 40's and again in the 60's and 70's. In the ACC their peers would be Virginia Tech and Miami and they wouldn't touch Clemson or Florida State. In the SEC they would be South Carolina, Tennessee (on its good years), L.S.U. or Auburn. And that's not bad, but it is a far cry from being mythical.

In the Big 10 they would be below Penn State, Ohio State and probably Wisconsin. And they would be on par with Michigan, Michigan State, and Iowa.

There is only one conference where their magic might work again, but the PAC is simply too far away to be feasible.

Even Northeastern sportswriters are positing the position that you are here and they recognize that "if" the ACCN is just 70% as successful as the SECN that Notre Dame will be losing money vs the other ACC full members by maintaining their independence so that eventually the proverbial handwriting will be on the wall.

Terry D. is in the camp at of N.D. followers that want to defiantly say, "No" to affiliation to a conference and I totally get their reason for this. But the divide among Irish faithful takes on the same proportions as the divide in this nation between all generational issues. As Boomers start to die out, the Millennials will have them in a conference faster than you can say scat. As with all of our traditions the Millennials will take the path of least resistance to culture because they don't know our history or our traditions. They are children of the backassward culture of the tube and they haven't a clue as to who they are, let alone their rights and obligations. And they don't give a hoot, or a thought, to the sacrifices of those who went before them, or the integrity that went into them. They have been bred and educated to be corporate slaves.


Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."

Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 07:48 PM by JRsec.)
01-26-2018 07:27 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Online
1st String
*

Posts: 2,270
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 93
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #45
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 06:55 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

ND is a full legal member of the ACC. Full. They just don't play football, but legally the same as North Carolina.

This is fantasy on the part of other fans. The ACC is not going to ever do anything regarding ND but the status quo.

Oh come on now...

You're outnumbered and the rest of the ACC has full freedom to demand what they want. In the current climate, they simply don't have the leverage.

ND is special, but they're not that special. If the economics move in favor of the ACC union then they'll expect ND to take the plunge. No one has ever given ND a special arrangement because they thought it was deserved. That's not even a variable in such an equation. They offered it up because it was mutually beneficial. The fact that the ACC offered you full membership without full commitment was simply a sign of their weakness. Perhaps the only other Power league that would have done that was the Big 12 and that conference isn't likely to be around much longer.

If you expect the ACC to never evolve in any way then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. College athletics has been in a constant state of flux from day one. It's too decentralized to be anything else. Nothing stays stagnant, you're either moving forward or falling behind.

It's like I was saying in one of the other threads...the world of college athletics has evolved and ND has yet to adjust.
01-26-2018 08:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #46
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 08:25 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:55 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

ND is a full legal member of the ACC. Full. They just don't play football, but legally the same as North Carolina.

This is fantasy on the part of other fans. The ACC is not going to ever do anything regarding ND but the status quo.

Oh come on now...

You're outnumbered and the rest of the ACC has full freedom to demand what they want. In the current climate, they simply don't have the leverage.

ND is special, but they're not that special. If the economics move in favor of the ACC union then they'll expect ND to take the plunge. No one has ever given ND a special arrangement because they thought it was deserved. That's not even a variable in such an equation. They offered it up because it was mutually beneficial. The fact that the ACC offered you full membership without full commitment was simply a sign of their weakness. Perhaps the only other Power league that would have done that was the Big 12 and that conference isn't likely to be around much longer.

If you expect the ACC to never evolve in any way then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. College athletics has been in a constant state of flux from day one. It's too decentralized to be anything else. Nothing stays stagnant, you're either moving forward or falling behind.

It's like I was saying in one of the other threads...the world of college athletics has evolved and ND has yet to adjust.

Show me the legal mechanism within the ACC to throw out a full member over football independence......
01-26-2018 09:27 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #47
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 07:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 03:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:05 AM)XLance Wrote:  2036.
The ACC is not about "strong arming" any school.
At this point the ACC and Notre Dame have a good symbiotic relationship that is working for the benefit of both, there is no reason for either side to try to take advantage of the other.

At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

The bottom line ATU is why Notre Dame can't afford to join a conference. In the ACC, SEC, or Big 10 all Notre Dame would be is a mid tier program capable of making a run about once a decade. And being locked into that would convince the networks relatively quickly that their brand wasn't worth paying for separately. They can hold onto to their public image with some mystique by not joining anywhere and proving to the world what everyone already knows, they just don't have it anymore, like they had it in the 30' and 40's and again in the 60's and 70's. In the ACC their peers would be Virginia Tech and Miami and they wouldn't touch Clemson or Florida State. In the SEC they would be South Carolina, Tennessee (on its good years), L.S.U. or Auburn. And that's not bad, but it is a far cry from being mythical.

In the Big 10 they would be below Penn State, Ohio State and probably Wisconsin. And they would be on par with Michigan, Michigan State, and Iowa.

There is only one conference where their magic might work again, but the PAC is simply too far away to be feasible.

Even Northeastern sportswriters are positing the position that you are here and they recognize that "if" the ACCN is just 70% as successful as the SECN that Notre Dame will be losing money vs the other ACC full members by maintaining their independence so that eventually the proverbial handwriting will be on the wall.

Terry D. is in the camp at of N.D. followers that want to defiantly say, "No" to affiliation to a conference and I totally get their reason for this. But the divide among Irish faithful takes on the same proportions as the divide in this nation between all generational issues. As Boomers start to die out, the Millennials will have them in a conference faster than you can say scat. As with all of our traditions the Millennials will take the path of least resistance to culture because they don't know our history or our traditions. They are children of the backassward culture of the tube and they haven't a clue as to who they are, let alone their rights and obligations. And they don't give a hoot, or a thought, to the sacrifices of those who went before them, or the integrity that went into them. They have been bred and educated to be corporate slaves.


Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."

Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.

We shall see. I recall long down periods for Alabama, Oklahoma, etc..

I see two ten win seasons in three years; three double digit win totals in six years as a trend up from Davie, Willingham and Weis.

Kelly is 69-34 at ND. Not great, but again trending up as the best mark since Holtz.

But, my point was that ND is not "scared" to be in a conference, as you stated. Check their schedules. The Irish play a very competitive one.

They just think that indy status is a better marketing position.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 09:31 PM by TerryD.)
01-26-2018 09:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 15,531
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 824
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #48
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 09:29 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 07:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 03:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.


No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

The bottom line ATU is why Notre Dame can't afford to join a conference. In the ACC, SEC, or Big 10 all Notre Dame would be is a mid tier program capable of making a run about once a decade. And being locked into that would convince the networks relatively quickly that their brand wasn't worth paying for separately. They can hold onto to their public image with some mystique by not joining anywhere and proving to the world what everyone already knows, they just don't have it anymore, like they had it in the 30' and 40's and again in the 60's and 70's. In the ACC their peers would be Virginia Tech and Miami and they wouldn't touch Clemson or Florida State. In the SEC they would be South Carolina, Tennessee (on its good years), L.S.U. or Auburn. And that's not bad, but it is a far cry from being mythical.

In the Big 10 they would be below Penn State, Ohio State and probably Wisconsin. And they would be on par with Michigan, Michigan State, and Iowa.

There is only one conference where their magic might work again, but the PAC is simply too far away to be feasible.

Even Northeastern sportswriters are positing the position that you are here and they recognize that "if" the ACCN is just 70% as successful as the SECN that Notre Dame will be losing money vs the other ACC full members by maintaining their independence so that eventually the proverbial handwriting will be on the wall.

Terry D. is in the camp at of N.D. followers that want to defiantly say, "No" to affiliation to a conference and I totally get their reason for this. But the divide among Irish faithful takes on the same proportions as the divide in this nation between all generational issues. As Boomers start to die out, the Millennials will have them in a conference faster than you can say scat. As with all of our traditions the Millennials will take the path of least resistance to culture because they don't know our history or our traditions. They are children of the backassward culture of the tube and they haven't a clue as to who they are, let alone their rights and obligations. And they don't give a hoot, or a thought, to the sacrifices of those who went before them, or the integrity that went into them. They have been bred and educated to be corporate slaves.


Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."

Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.

We shall see. I recall long down periods for Alabama, Oklahoma, etc..

I see two ten win seasons in three years; three double digit win totals in six years as a trend up from Davie, Willingham and Weis.

Kelly is 69-34 at ND. Not great, but again trending up as the best mark since Holtz.

But, my point was that ND is not "scared" to be in a conference, as you stated. Check their schedules. The Irish play a very competitive one.

They just think that indy status is a better marketing position.

"Scared" was explained as not wanting the PR of being a contender but not a perennial champion. I've never thought N.D. was scared of competition. But finishing mid tier in a conference for a significant period of time is worse for your image than playing the schedule you play and coming up a tad short. I get that. You are Notre Dame when playing as an independent whether you are 8-4 or 10-2. You are just the 3rd or 4th in conference so and so otherwise.

Other than that I think we understand each other. I don't like what TV has done to the game, but I don't think it is going to change and I'm just extrapolating what has occurred into the future.
01-26-2018 10:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Online
1st String
*

Posts: 2,270
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 93
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #49
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 09:27 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:25 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:55 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.

(01-26-2018 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. The idea of someone "forcing" ND to join a football conference is nothing more than message board fan chowder. It is not going to happen.

No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

ND is a full legal member of the ACC. Full. They just don't play football, but legally the same as North Carolina.

This is fantasy on the part of other fans. The ACC is not going to ever do anything regarding ND but the status quo.

Oh come on now...

You're outnumbered and the rest of the ACC has full freedom to demand what they want. In the current climate, they simply don't have the leverage.

ND is special, but they're not that special. If the economics move in favor of the ACC union then they'll expect ND to take the plunge. No one has ever given ND a special arrangement because they thought it was deserved. That's not even a variable in such an equation. They offered it up because it was mutually beneficial. The fact that the ACC offered you full membership without full commitment was simply a sign of their weakness. Perhaps the only other Power league that would have done that was the Big 12 and that conference isn't likely to be around much longer.

If you expect the ACC to never evolve in any way then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. College athletics has been in a constant state of flux from day one. It's too decentralized to be anything else. Nothing stays stagnant, you're either moving forward or falling behind.

It's like I was saying in one of the other threads...the world of college athletics has evolved and ND has yet to adjust.

Show me the legal mechanism within the ACC to throw out a full member over football independence......

They don't need one.

From a purely practical perspective, the membership of the ACC could decide to vote you out for whatever reason they desire. I strongly suspect each conference has a set of bylaws that allow discretion for the overwhelming majority of the membership to decide with whom they will associate. Theoretically, there could be penalties for such action, but I doubt they would be prohibitive. I'm sure any single member has certain protections guaranteed, but at the end of the day a club is a club. ND has no more legal right to force an association with a collection of public schools(or private ones for that matter) than any other entity would.

What ND has, according to any agreement they might have signed with the ACC, is a collections of rights and privileges that rely on the consensus of the whole. Let's say the whole decides to alter the bylaws and state that each member must participate in any fielded sport in which the conference sponsors a championship.

In all seriousness, who's going to stop them? ND has one vote and that's it. After all, we're talking about business contracts here, not laws that require a literal act of Congress.

Now obviously, this is not going to happen anytime soon, but that wasn't my point. My point is that if the ACC grows economically stronger in the next couple of decades then everyone's playing a different game. The economics change and the leverage changes.

Or perhaps it works this way...

Perhaps it's a matter of ACC weakness and not strength.

When the GOR is up, any current membership is up in the air because there will be freedom of movement...remember that these contracts aren't ironclad. That creates openings for negotiations. Perhaps some of the more powerful members say to ND, you go all in or we'll take advantage of opportunities elsewhere because your lack of commitment is damaging our earning potential.

Then let's say ND says no. Well, powerful members bail at that point and ND is left with fewer options as to what to do with their sports outside of football.
01-26-2018 10:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #50
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 10:37 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:27 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 08:25 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:55 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  At this place and time, they have a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not saying otherwise.

What I'm saying though is the ACC allowed ND as a partial because it needed the Irish and was willing to fudge on standard requirements. There is likely to come a day though where these circumstances are no longer in play. Perhaps it will be that the ACC grows ever stronger and simply doesn't need ND as a partial. I think it's very reasonable to say at that point that ACC leadership would tell ND that we need you to go all in and if not, that's fine, but we need to move on from this arrangement. Even the MAC did essentially that with UMass and the economic potential was very different in that case.

The other side of my point was ND would still likely face a decision either way. It's entirely possible that the ACC will become so weak that it dissolves and ND will have to do something different at that point.

I think it's unlikely that the ACC will always be what it is right now...a 4th or 5th place league in a world that's trying to trim down to something more cohesive.


No one can force ND to anything they don't want to do, I understand. What I'm saying is that a league is only going to be willing to give ND a special arrangement as long as that arrangement is optimally beneficial. If the circumstances change then no league will give ND a special deal.

Just as no one can force ND to join a league, ND can't force the ACC or anyone else to offer a special arrangement if the economics dictate that every member needs to be equal.

ND is a full legal member of the ACC. Full. They just don't play football, but legally the same as North Carolina.

This is fantasy on the part of other fans. The ACC is not going to ever do anything regarding ND but the status quo.

Oh come on now...

You're outnumbered and the rest of the ACC has full freedom to demand what they want. In the current climate, they simply don't have the leverage.

ND is special, but they're not that special. If the economics move in favor of the ACC union then they'll expect ND to take the plunge. No one has ever given ND a special arrangement because they thought it was deserved. That's not even a variable in such an equation. They offered it up because it was mutually beneficial. The fact that the ACC offered you full membership without full commitment was simply a sign of their weakness. Perhaps the only other Power league that would have done that was the Big 12 and that conference isn't likely to be around much longer.

If you expect the ACC to never evolve in any way then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. College athletics has been in a constant state of flux from day one. It's too decentralized to be anything else. Nothing stays stagnant, you're either moving forward or falling behind.

It's like I was saying in one of the other threads...the world of college athletics has evolved and ND has yet to adjust.

Show me the legal mechanism within the ACC to throw out a full member over football independence......

They don't need one.

From a purely practical perspective, the membership of the ACC could decide to vote you out for whatever reason they desire. I strongly suspect each conference has a set of bylaws that allow discretion for the overwhelming majority of the membership to decide with whom they will associate. Theoretically, there could be penalties for such action, but I doubt they would be prohibitive. I'm sure any single member has certain protections guaranteed, but at the end of the day a club is a club. ND has no more legal right to force an association with a collection of public schools(or private ones for that matter) than any other entity would.

What ND has, according to any agreement they might have signed with the ACC, is a collections of rights and privileges that rely on the consensus of the whole. Let's say the whole decides to alter the bylaws and state that each member must participate in any fielded sport in which the conference sponsors a championship.

In all seriousness, who's going to stop them? ND has one vote and that's it. After all, we're talking about business contracts here, not laws that require a literal act of Congress.

Now obviously, this is not going to happen anytime soon, but that wasn't my point. My point is that if the ACC grows economically stronger in the next couple of decades then everyone's playing a different game. The economics change and the leverage changes.

Or perhaps it works this way...

Perhaps it's a matter of ACC weakness and not strength.

When the GOR is up, any current membership is up in the air because there will be freedom of movement...remember that these contracts aren't ironclad. That creates openings for negotiations. Perhaps some of the more powerful members say to ND, you go all in or we'll take advantage of opportunities elsewhere because your lack of commitment is damaging our earning potential.

Then let's say ND says no. Well, powerful members bail at that point and ND is left with fewer options as to what to do with their sports outside of football.


It is fantasy. ND and the ACC are locked into status quo (ND football not part of the ACC, but 24 other sports are) through 2036.

Who really cares after that?

The ACC is not going to do anything to change ND's status. It is merely wishful thinking, without cause, to insist otherwise.

ND will join the ACC for football in ten minutes if a P4 champs only playoff is announced. Otherwise? Status quo through 2036.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 11:21 PM by TerryD.)
01-26-2018 11:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #51
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:29 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 07:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 03:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line ATU is why Notre Dame can't afford to join a conference. In the ACC, SEC, or Big 10 all Notre Dame would be is a mid tier program capable of making a run about once a decade. And being locked into that would convince the networks relatively quickly that their brand wasn't worth paying for separately. They can hold onto to their public image with some mystique by not joining anywhere and proving to the world what everyone already knows, they just don't have it anymore, like they had it in the 30' and 40's and again in the 60's and 70's. In the ACC their peers would be Virginia Tech and Miami and they wouldn't touch Clemson or Florida State. In the SEC they would be South Carolina, Tennessee (on its good years), L.S.U. or Auburn. And that's not bad, but it is a far cry from being mythical.

In the Big 10 they would be below Penn State, Ohio State and probably Wisconsin. And they would be on par with Michigan, Michigan State, and Iowa.

There is only one conference where their magic might work again, but the PAC is simply too far away to be feasible.

Even Northeastern sportswriters are positing the position that you are here and they recognize that "if" the ACCN is just 70% as successful as the SECN that Notre Dame will be losing money vs the other ACC full members by maintaining their independence so that eventually the proverbial handwriting will be on the wall.

Terry D. is in the camp at of N.D. followers that want to defiantly say, "No" to affiliation to a conference and I totally get their reason for this. But the divide among Irish faithful takes on the same proportions as the divide in this nation between all generational issues. As Boomers start to die out, the Millennials will have them in a conference faster than you can say scat. As with all of our traditions the Millennials will take the path of least resistance to culture because they don't know our history or our traditions. They are children of the backassward culture of the tube and they haven't a clue as to who they are, let alone their rights and obligations. And they don't give a hoot, or a thought, to the sacrifices of those who went before them, or the integrity that went into them. They have been bred and educated to be corporate slaves.


Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."

Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.

We shall see. I recall long down periods for Alabama, Oklahoma, etc..

I see two ten win seasons in three years; three double digit win totals in six years as a trend up from Davie, Willingham and Weis.

Kelly is 69-34 at ND. Not great, but again trending up as the best mark since Holtz.

But, my point was that ND is not "scared" to be in a conference, as you stated. Check their schedules. The Irish play a very competitive one.

They just think that indy status is a better marketing position.

"Scared" was explained as not wanting the PR of being a contender but not a perennial champion. I've never thought N.D. was scared of competition. But finishing mid tier in a conference for a significant period of time is worse for your image than playing the schedule you play and coming up a tad short. I get that. You are Notre Dame when playing as an independent whether you are 8-4 or 10-2. You are just the 3rd or 4th in conference so and so otherwise.

Other than that I think we understand each other. I don't like what TV has done to the game, but I don't think it is going to change and I'm just extrapolating what has occurred into the future.

ND would not finish mid-tier in the ACC, in my opinion. So, that is not the reason that ND insists on staying indy.
01-26-2018 11:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JRsec Offline
Super Moderator
*

Posts: 15,531
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 824
I Root For: SEC
Location:
Post: #52
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 11:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:29 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 07:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, ND just won ten games and beat LSU in a bowl game. ND schedules are always pretty tough. The Irish are not "afraid" of conference membership, it just doesn't fit the school's marketing goal of being the "national Catholic university".

Simple as that and largely non-football related.

You, and fans of other schools everywhere, underestimate the resolve of younger ND fans to stay out of a conference.

"Conventional wisdom" on message boards for twenty years has been "As soon as the old fans die out..."

That conventional wisdom is wrong, just like the old message board wisdom that "Once the playoffs system begins, ND will be put in its place, it will not be like the BCS."

Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.

We shall see. I recall long down periods for Alabama, Oklahoma, etc..

I see two ten win seasons in three years; three double digit win totals in six years as a trend up from Davie, Willingham and Weis.

Kelly is 69-34 at ND. Not great, but again trending up as the best mark since Holtz.

But, my point was that ND is not "scared" to be in a conference, as you stated. Check their schedules. The Irish play a very competitive one.

They just think that indy status is a better marketing position.

"Scared" was explained as not wanting the PR of being a contender but not a perennial champion. I've never thought N.D. was scared of competition. But finishing mid tier in a conference for a significant period of time is worse for your image than playing the schedule you play and coming up a tad short. I get that. You are Notre Dame when playing as an independent whether you are 8-4 or 10-2. You are just the 3rd or 4th in conference so and so otherwise.

Other than that I think we understand each other. I don't like what TV has done to the game, but I don't think it is going to change and I'm just extrapolating what has occurred into the future.

ND would not finish mid-tier in the ACC, in my opinion. So, that is not the reason that ND insists on staying indy.

IMO you wouldn't win it either and that would negatively impact your image more than what the status quo does.
01-26-2018 11:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Online
1st String
*

Posts: 2,270
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 93
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #53
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 11:19 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 10:37 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:27 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Show me the legal mechanism within the ACC to throw out a full member over football independence......

They don't need one.

From a purely practical perspective, the membership of the ACC could decide to vote you out for whatever reason they desire. I strongly suspect each conference has a set of bylaws that allow discretion for the overwhelming majority of the membership to decide with whom they will associate. Theoretically, there could be penalties for such action, but I doubt they would be prohibitive. I'm sure any single member has certain protections guaranteed, but at the end of the day a club is a club. ND has no more legal right to force an association with a collection of public schools(or private ones for that matter) than any other entity would.

What ND has, according to any agreement they might have signed with the ACC, is a collections of rights and privileges that rely on the consensus of the whole. Let's say the whole decides to alter the bylaws and state that each member must participate in any fielded sport in which the conference sponsors a championship.

In all seriousness, who's going to stop them? ND has one vote and that's it. After all, we're talking about business contracts here, not laws that require a literal act of Congress.

Now obviously, this is not going to happen anytime soon, but that wasn't my point. My point is that if the ACC grows economically stronger in the next couple of decades then everyone's playing a different game. The economics change and the leverage changes.

Or perhaps it works this way...

Perhaps it's a matter of ACC weakness and not strength.

When the GOR is up, any current membership is up in the air because there will be freedom of movement...remember that these contracts aren't ironclad. That creates openings for negotiations. Perhaps some of the more powerful members say to ND, you go all in or we'll take advantage of opportunities elsewhere because your lack of commitment is damaging our earning potential.

Then let's say ND says no. Well, powerful members bail at that point and ND is left with fewer options as to what to do with their sports outside of football.


It is fantasy. ND and the ACC are locked into status quo (ND football not part of the ACC, but 24 other sports are) through 2036.

Who really cares after that?

The ACC is not going to do anything to change ND's status. It is merely wishful thinking, without cause, to insist otherwise.

ND will join the ACC for football in ten minutes if a P4 champs only playoff is announced. Otherwise? Status quo through 2036.

Now that I've backed you an inch off that "ND will never ever join a league" position 03-wink

This is really my point. Would the ACC try to force ND's hand today? Absolutely not, they wouldn't dare think it. Ten years from now? Probably still a hard 'no.'

But 20 and 30 years from now? Neither you nor I know exactly what the economic picture will be. Whether there is a P4 playoff or not, ND will eventually have to accept that the economics of college football are not what they were 30, 40, or 50 years ago. That day is long gone.

Who cares what ND does after 2036? Well, hopefully someone still does...

If nobody cares then that sort of underscores the problem. The time may very well be coming when ND just doesn't move the needle that much. They might end up joining one league or the other simply because some of the others might not be interested.

More to the point, the ND faithful will care and so someone will be around to make decisions for the university and my bet is that the reality of a need rather than a preference to join a conference will be slapping ND leadership in the face.

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday and for the rest of your lives...
01-26-2018 11:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Online
1st String
*

Posts: 2,270
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 93
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #54
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 06:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  We have a contract with Notre Dame, and we will honor that contract.....they will know when it's time.

I suspect you are correct.
01-27-2018 12:04 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #55
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 11:59 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 11:19 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 10:37 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:27 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Show me the legal mechanism within the ACC to throw out a full member over football independence......

They don't need one.

From a purely practical perspective, the membership of the ACC could decide to vote you out for whatever reason they desire. I strongly suspect each conference has a set of bylaws that allow discretion for the overwhelming majority of the membership to decide with whom they will associate. Theoretically, there could be penalties for such action, but I doubt they would be prohibitive. I'm sure any single member has certain protections guaranteed, but at the end of the day a club is a club. ND has no more legal right to force an association with a collection of public schools(or private ones for that matter) than any other entity would.

What ND has, according to any agreement they might have signed with the ACC, is a collections of rights and privileges that rely on the consensus of the whole. Let's say the whole decides to alter the bylaws and state that each member must participate in any fielded sport in which the conference sponsors a championship.

In all seriousness, who's going to stop them? ND has one vote and that's it. After all, we're talking about business contracts here, not laws that require a literal act of Congress.

Now obviously, this is not going to happen anytime soon, but that wasn't my point. My point is that if the ACC grows economically stronger in the next couple of decades then everyone's playing a different game. The economics change and the leverage changes.

Or perhaps it works this way...

Perhaps it's a matter of ACC weakness and not strength.

When the GOR is up, any current membership is up in the air because there will be freedom of movement...remember that these contracts aren't ironclad. That creates openings for negotiations. Perhaps some of the more powerful members say to ND, you go all in or we'll take advantage of opportunities elsewhere because your lack of commitment is damaging our earning potential.

Then let's say ND says no. Well, powerful members bail at that point and ND is left with fewer options as to what to do with their sports outside of football.


It is fantasy. ND and the ACC are locked into status quo (ND football not part of the ACC, but 24 other sports are) through 2036.

Who really cares after that?

The ACC is not going to do anything to change ND's status. It is merely wishful thinking, without cause, to insist otherwise.

ND will join the ACC for football in ten minutes if a P4 champs only playoff is announced. Otherwise? Status quo through 2036.

Now that I've backed you an inch off that "ND will never ever join a league" position 03-wink

This is really my point. Would the ACC try to force ND's hand today? Absolutely not, they wouldn't dare think it. Ten years from now? Probably still a hard 'no.'

But 20 and 30 years from now? Neither you nor I know exactly what the economic picture will be. Whether there is a P4 playoff or not, ND will eventually have to accept that the economics of college football are not what they were 30, 40, or 50 years ago. That day is long gone.

Who cares what ND does after 2036? Well, hopefully someone still does...

If nobody cares then that sort of underscores the problem. The time may very well be coming when ND just doesn't move the needle that much. They might end up joining one league or the other simply because some of the others might not be interested.

More to the point, the ND faithful will care and so someone will be around to make decisions for the university and my bet is that the reality of a need rather than a preference to join a conference will be slapping ND leadership in the face.

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday and for the rest of your lives...


You didn't "back me" into anything. Jack Swarbrick has said that is the only way ND will give up football independence. Since then (a few years ago), nobody could argue otherwise.



My bet to you is that ND will not join a football conference prior to 2036 unless a P4 champs only playoff is established.

Otherwise, ND's position will be status quo until at least 2036 no matter what fans of other programs want or think on message boards.

After that? Hell, there may be no college football at that point. I will be 79 years old in 2036, if still alive. I doubt I will care one way or the other by then. :)
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 11:47 AM by TerryD.)
01-27-2018 11:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,254
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 495
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #56
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-26-2018 11:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 11:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 09:29 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 07:27 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Keep telling yourself that Terry D. But Notre Dame has been pretty average since the late 80's and I don't see a trend upward. As for membership in the ACC you are full members for all but 1 sport. I've never said otherwise. The difference in football is depth. N.D. just doesn't go two deep as well as most Southern schools. So the later you get into the season the more average the performance becomes.

As to the SEC there is no doubt but what they give you what you need. But the market forces will still be at work and this time without a Skipper at ESPN providing a protective hand.

Time, pressure, and monetary disparity will eventually lead to change. It always has and always will.

We shall see. I recall long down periods for Alabama, Oklahoma, etc..

I see two ten win seasons in three years; three double digit win totals in six years as a trend up from Davie, Willingham and Weis.

Kelly is 69-34 at ND. Not great, but again trending up as the best mark since Holtz.

But, my point was that ND is not "scared" to be in a conference, as you stated. Check their schedules. The Irish play a very competitive one.

They just think that indy status is a better marketing position.

"Scared" was explained as not wanting the PR of being a contender but not a perennial champion. I've never thought N.D. was scared of competition. But finishing mid tier in a conference for a significant period of time is worse for your image than playing the schedule you play and coming up a tad short. I get that. You are Notre Dame when playing as an independent whether you are 8-4 or 10-2. You are just the 3rd or 4th in conference so and so otherwise.

Other than that I think we understand each other. I don't like what TV has done to the game, but I don't think it is going to change and I'm just extrapolating what has occurred into the future.

ND would not finish mid-tier in the ACC, in my opinion. So, that is not the reason that ND insists on staying indy.

IMO you wouldn't win it either and that would negatively impact your image more than what the status quo does.


We simply disagree. ND went 4-1 against the ACC this past season. I suspect that would be the norm and ND would win the Coastal Division and be in the title game quite often.
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 11:47 AM by TerryD.)
01-27-2018 11:45 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AllTideUp Online
1st String
*

Posts: 2,270
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 93
I Root For: Alabama
Location:
Post: #57
RE: Notre Dame to examine future scheduling strategy
(01-27-2018 11:41 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 11:59 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 11:19 PM)TerryD Wrote:  It is fantasy. ND and the ACC are locked into status quo (ND football not part of the ACC, but 24 other sports are) through 2036.

Who really cares after that?

The ACC is not going to do anything to change ND's status. It is merely wishful thinking, without cause, to insist otherwise.

ND will join the ACC for football in ten minutes if a P4 champs only playoff is announced. Otherwise? Status quo through 2036.

Now that I've backed you an inch off that "ND will never ever join a league" position 03-wink

This is really my point. Would the ACC try to force ND's hand today? Absolutely not, they wouldn't dare think it. Ten years from now? Probably still a hard 'no.'

But 20 and 30 years from now? Neither you nor I know exactly what the economic picture will be. Whether there is a P4 playoff or not, ND will eventually have to accept that the economics of college football are not what they were 30, 40, or 50 years ago. That day is long gone.

Who cares what ND does after 2036? Well, hopefully someone still does...

If nobody cares then that sort of underscores the problem. The time may very well be coming when ND just doesn't move the needle that much. They might end up joining one league or the other simply because some of the others might not be interested.

More to the point, the ND faithful will care and so someone will be around to make decisions for the university and my bet is that the reality of a need rather than a preference to join a conference will be slapping ND leadership in the face.

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday and for the rest of your lives...

You didn't "back me" into anything. Jack Swarbrick has said that is the only way ND will give up football independence. Since then (a few years ago), nobody could argue otherwise.

My bet to you is that ND will not join a football conference prior to 2036 unless a P4 champs only playoff is established.

Otherwise, ND's position will be status quo until at least 2036 no matter what fans of other programs want or think on message boards.

After that? Hell, there may be no college football at that point. I will be 79 years old in 2036, if still alive. I doubt I will care one way or the other by then. :)

Well, "never" and "might as well be 2545" wouldn't exactly qualify as "status quo until 2036," but believe what you will. 03-wink

But you still don't seem to understand what I'm really getting at. The fact that I'm a fan of another program has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter what the consensus of college football fans think, sure. It also doesn't matter what the consensus of Notre Dame fans think either. It's an economic question and really nothing more.

The fact that you'll be nearly 80 by the time 2036 arrives informs us of something...you grew up in an era when Notre Dame was synonymous with the pinnacle of college football. That is no longer the world we live in. By 2036, I'll be in my mid 50s and I grew up in a world where Notre Dame is more a relic than anything else. They're a curiosity more than a force.

You grew up in a world where Notre Dame was unequivocally the captain of its own ship. That world doesn't exist anymore. The Notre Dame of 2011 was forced to sign over 5 games a season to a league like the ACC just to maintain relative independence. ND got a special arrangement compared to most schools, but do you really think that if ND could have simply parked their non-revenue sports in the ACC without guaranteeing a single football game that they wouldn't have done it? That simply wasn't an option for them...

It's like Doc Brown said..."Marty, you're not thinking 4th dimensionally!"

It's entirely possible that ND won't join a league before 2036. I never said they would although I wouldn't be shocked to see it in the next 10 years. What I said is that it's inevitable that they will have to join some league at some point in the not too distant future. Economics will demand it because the ND brand will continue to weaken without conference membership to buoy it. One of these days, ND is going to have to join a conference...it will no longer be a matter of what they want or don't want. If they have a desire to maintain the entity that is Notre Dame football then they'll have one choice in front of them.

The specific year it happens is immaterial to the point I'm making. It won't happen in the next few years because the ACC will stick around a while longer and ND won't bleed too much influence in that short a period of time. When precisely it happens will depend on various factors:

1. How many playoff appearances will ND have in the next 10 years?
2. How profitable will the ACC Network be in that period of time? Could a strong network lead to a stronger ACC in other words?
3. Will the ACC stick around in the long term or will they essentially dissolve if the SEC and B1G continue to grow?
4. Will the Power leagues form a new division?
01-27-2018 01:51 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2018 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2018 MyBB Group.