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Early Look All-MAC MBB
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-08-2018 06:26 PM)axeme Wrote:  I’ve always thought stats were a good starting point, but shouldn’t be the ultimate determining factor for individual awards. There are just too many other factors that play into individual performance, like the teammates you play with, the tempo you play at, etc. One player’s 16 ppg./8 reb. might be better than another’s 18/10. I think the subjective element is really important. You have to weigh a lot more than raw stats.

CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.
02-09-2018 10:53 AM
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BullBoy Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 10:53 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 06:26 PM)axeme Wrote:  I’ve always thought stats were a good starting point, but shouldn’t be the ultimate determining factor for individual awards. There are just too many other factors that play into individual performance, like the teammates you play with, the tempo you play at, etc. One player’s 16 ppg./8 reb. might be better than another’s 18/10. I think the subjective element is really important. You have to weigh a lot more than raw stats.

CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.

I think if you look at Buffalo, they are such a balanced team with Massinburg, Harris, Clark, and Perkins that they shouldn't be punished because their stats might not be as high as some other players who don't have the same support around them.
02-09-2018 11:07 AM
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axeme Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 11:07 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:53 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 06:26 PM)axeme Wrote:  I’ve always thought stats were a good starting point, but shouldn’t be the ultimate determining factor for individual awards. There are just too many other factors that play into individual performance, like the teammates you play with, the tempo you play at, etc. One player’s 16 ppg./8 reb. might be better than another’s 18/10. I think the subjective element is really important. You have to weigh a lot more than raw stats.

CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.

I think if you look at Buffalo, they are such a balanced team with Massinburg, Harris, Clark, and Perkins that they shouldn't be punished because their stats might not be as high as some other players who don't have the same support around them.

My point exactly. In a perfect world, you pick the 5 guys who you would take if you were choosing the best team you could construct. You’d pick them on how they play, not on who has the highest numbers.
02-09-2018 11:30 AM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 11:30 AM)axeme Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 11:07 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:53 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 06:26 PM)axeme Wrote:  I’ve always thought stats were a good starting point, but shouldn’t be the ultimate determining factor for individual awards. There are just too many other factors that play into individual performance, like the teammates you play with, the tempo you play at, etc. One player’s 16 ppg./8 reb. might be better than another’s 18/10. I think the subjective element is really important. You have to weigh a lot more than raw stats.

CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.

I think if you look at Buffalo, they are such a balanced team with Massinburg, Harris, Clark, and Perkins that they shouldn't be punished because their stats might not be as high as some other players who don't have the same support around them.

My point exactly. In a perfect world, you pick the 5 guys who you would take if you were choosing the best team you could construct. You’d pick them on how they play, not on who has the highest numbers.

Yea but at the same time "Most valuable player" is not "best player", or at least that's my take. The MVP, in my view should..

1 - Come from a competitive team. Not necessarily one of the top two, but if you're a 4-14 team was anyone "really" valuable?
2 - Be vital to that teams success
3 - Stand out statistically in at least two categories
02-09-2018 12:34 PM
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DICK Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 12:34 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 11:30 AM)axeme Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 11:07 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:53 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 06:26 PM)axeme Wrote:  I’ve always thought stats were a good starting point, but shouldn’t be the ultimate determining factor for individual awards. There are just too many other factors that play into individual performance, like the teammates you play with, the tempo you play at, etc. One player’s 16 ppg./8 reb. might be better than another’s 18/10. I think the subjective element is really important. You have to weigh a lot more than raw stats.

CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.

I think if you look at Buffalo, they are such a balanced team with Massinburg, Harris, Clark, and Perkins that they shouldn't be punished because their stats might not be as high as some other players who don't have the same support around them.

My point exactly. In a perfect world, you pick the 5 guys who you would take if you were choosing the best team you could construct. You’d pick them on how they play, not on who has the highest numbers.

Yea but at the same time "Most valuable player" is not "best player", or at least that's my take. The MVP, in my view should..

1 - Come from a competitive team. Not necessarily one of the top two, but if you're a 4-14 team was anyone "really" valuable?
2 - Be vital to that teams success
3 - Stand out statistically in at least two categories

But don't we give out a Player of the Year award, not a MVP award.
02-09-2018 01:19 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 01:19 PM)DICK Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 12:34 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 11:30 AM)axeme Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 11:07 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:53 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  CMU’s high scoring guards of last year being case in point.

I think if you look at Buffalo, they are such a balanced team with Massinburg, Harris, Clark, and Perkins that they shouldn't be punished because their stats might not be as high as some other players who don't have the same support around them.

My point exactly. In a perfect world, you pick the 5 guys who you would take if you were choosing the best team you could construct. You’d pick them on how they play, not on who has the highest numbers.

Yea but at the same time "Most valuable player" is not "best player", or at least that's my take. The MVP, in my view should..

1 - Come from a competitive team. Not necessarily one of the top two, but if you're a 4-14 team was anyone "really" valuable?
2 - Be vital to that teams success
3 - Stand out statistically in at least two categories

But don't we give out a Player of the Year award, not a MVP award.

I always viewed it as an MVP... But I think you're right.
02-09-2018 01:29 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.
02-09-2018 01:59 PM
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pono Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-09-2018 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.

only if you are the dominant player in the league and your team isn't that bad (basically because of you)

this year it will probably go to the top player from the top team. buffalo and toledo are pretty far ahead of the pack and no one on an average or weak team is great (there are a few guys who can make a case for all-mac). buffalo kind of spread the wealth between 3 guys while toledo has 2. to me fletcher is the biggest difference maker in the league. without him toledo would be back in the middle of the pack.

top 10 MAC players
clark
massenburg
perkins
fletcher
sanford
wilder
persons
ringo
german
thompson

hon mention
walker
ivey
bond
minnie
roundtree
sibande
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 03:08 AM by pono.)
02-11-2018 02:59 AM
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bg816 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-11-2018 02:59 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.

only if you are the dominant player in the league and your team isn't that bad (basically because of you)

this year it will probably go to the top player from the top team. buffalo and toledo are pretty far ahead of the pack and no one on an average or weak team is great (there are a few guys who can make a case for all-mac). buffalo kind of spread the wealth between 3 guys while toledo has 2. to me fletcher is the biggest difference maker in the league. without him toledo would be back in the middle of the pack.

top 10 MAC players
clark
massenburg
perkins
fletcher
sanford
wilder
persons
ringo
german
thompson

hon mention
walker
ivey
bond
minnie
roundtree
sibande

I’d throw BG’s Wiggins in there somewhere. Maybe Turner, but he’s been so inconsistent I’d understand the disagreement.
02-11-2018 04:20 AM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-11-2018 04:20 AM)bg816 Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 02:59 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.

only if you are the dominant player in the league and your team isn't that bad (basically because of you)

this year it will probably go to the top player from the top team. buffalo and toledo are pretty far ahead of the pack and no one on an average or weak team is great (there are a few guys who can make a case for all-mac). buffalo kind of spread the wealth between 3 guys while toledo has 2. to me fletcher is the biggest difference maker in the league. without him toledo would be back in the middle of the pack.

top 10 MAC players
clark
massenburg
perkins
fletcher
sanford
wilder
persons
ringo
german
thompson

hon mention
walker
ivey
bond
minnie
roundtree
sibande

I’d throw BG’s Wiggins in there somewhere. Maybe Turner, but he’s been so inconsistent I’d understand the disagreement.

I agree. Wiggins should be 2nd or 3rd team.
02-11-2018 02:29 PM
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pono Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-11-2018 02:29 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 04:20 AM)bg816 Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 02:59 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.

only if you are the dominant player in the league and your team isn't that bad (basically because of you)

this year it will probably go to the top player from the top team. buffalo and toledo are pretty far ahead of the pack and no one on an average or weak team is great (there are a few guys who can make a case for all-mac). buffalo kind of spread the wealth between 3 guys while toledo has 2. to me fletcher is the biggest difference maker in the league. without him toledo would be back in the middle of the pack.

top 10 MAC players
clark
massenburg
perkins
fletcher
sanford
wilder
persons
ringo
german
thompson

hon mention
walker
ivey
bond
minnie
roundtree
sibande

I’d throw BG’s Wiggins in there somewhere. Maybe Turner, but he’s been so inconsistent I’d understand the disagreement.

I agree. Wiggins should be 2nd or 3rd team.

i debated it. probably cause i watched a couple of his worst games this season and haven't seen much of bg otherwise.
02-12-2018 04:08 AM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
Turner was a solid candidate for FOY but seems to have dropped back a bit to Nike.
02-12-2018 10:55 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-11-2018 02:59 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 01:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think you can be most valuable and still be on a bad team.

only if you are the dominant player in the league and your team isn't that bad (basically because of you)

this year it will probably go to the top player from the top team. buffalo and toledo are pretty far ahead of the pack and no one on an average or weak team is great (there are a few guys who can make a case for all-mac). buffalo kind of spread the wealth between 3 guys while toledo has 2. to me fletcher is the biggest difference maker in the league. without him toledo would be back in the middle of the pack.

top 10 MAC players
clark
massenburg
perkins
fletcher
sanford
wilder
persons
ringo
german
thompson

hon mention
walker
ivey
bond
minnie
roundtree
sibande

I would argue that the best player is the most valuable player.
02-12-2018 03:59 PM
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pono Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-12-2018 10:55 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Turner was a solid candidate for FOY but seems to have dropped back a bit to Nike.

Kirk from Ohio is having a really good freshman year too. Big pg who can do it all, except he can't shoot a lick, which in basketball is a fairly big part of all, so...
02-13-2018 01:26 AM
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Eagle66 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-13-2018 01:26 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-12-2018 10:55 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Turner was a solid candidate for FOY but seems to have dropped back a bit to Nike.

Kirk from Ohio is having a really good freshman year too. Big pg who can do it all, except he can't shoot a lick, which in basketball is a fairly big part of all, so...

According to the MAC stats page, Kirk is the leading all freshman in scoring (#11 overall at 15.1 PPG), rebounding (#19 at 5.8 RPG) and Assists (#15 at 3 APG).

I also wouldn't say he "can't shoot a lick". While Kirk doesn't shoot a lot of 3's, he is currently shooting 44.4% from the field 44.3% from 3 and 72.3% from the line. For comparison, last years FOY (Michael Weathers) shot 43.1% / 22.1% / 77.7%.
02-13-2018 11:19 AM
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BullBoy Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-13-2018 11:19 AM)Eagle66 Wrote:  
(02-13-2018 01:26 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-12-2018 10:55 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Turner was a solid candidate for FOY but seems to have dropped back a bit to Nike.

Kirk from Ohio is having a really good freshman year too. Big pg who can do it all, except he can't shoot a lick, which in basketball is a fairly big part of all, so...

According to the MAC stats page, Kirk is the leading all freshman in scoring (#11 overall at 15.1 PPG), rebounding (#19 at 5.8 RPG) and Assists (#15 at 3 APG).

I also wouldn't say he "can't shoot a lick". While Kirk doesn't shoot a lot of 3's, he is currently shooting 44.4% from the field 44.3% from 3 and 72.3% from the line. For comparison, last years FOY (Michael Weathers) shot 43.1% / 22.1% / 77.7%.

He looked like a pretty good shooter against Buffalo a few weeks ago.
02-13-2018 11:36 AM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
On the UT board it said as of Tuesday, Fletcher was one of 3 players in the 30 conferences to be in the top 5 in rebounds, assists and points.
02-14-2018 09:00 PM
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BullBoy Offline
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RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
I know still five games left.. I'd say Fletcher is Player of the Year and Oats is Coach of the Year. Buffalo has so many guys that I could argue are first team players: Massinburg, Harris, Perkins, Clark, that they might end up splitting votes and only one will get on.
02-14-2018 10:24 PM
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OUVan Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Early Look All-MAC MBB
(02-13-2018 01:26 AM)pono Wrote:  
(02-12-2018 10:55 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Turner was a solid candidate for FOY but seems to have dropped back a bit to Nike.

Kirk from Ohio is having a really good freshman year too. Big pg who can do it all, except he can't shoot a lick, which in basketball is a fairly big part of all, so...

He shoots a lot better than he runs an offense. IMO he is the case in point about numbers being subjective. Would love to have him as Ohio's 6th man. Some Ohio fans love him but it frustrates me watching him make dramatic one-on-four drives to the hoop with Jordan Dartis or Mike Laster standing wide-open behind the arc. He's got all the tools except for the court vision that is so important to a PG. It's not hard to lose a lot of games when your starting PG has a negative assist-to-turnover ratio. He's had a total of two games in conference season with more assists than turnovers. I miss DJ Cooper.
02-15-2018 10:12 AM
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