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Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 08:57 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 05:37 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Piggybacking on the OP: Is there a single, event-horizon moment that would have you seriously consider no longer watching football? A major star dying on the field after a hit? A younger Hall of Famer having a Chris Benoit breakdown? A definitive medical study showing severe cognitive disabilities for a sizable number of players at all levels? Would a cumulative effect be enough?

Why do we allow people jump out of airplanes for no real useful purpose when sometimes people crash into the ground?

Why do we allow people put on wing suits and sail at 60 miles per hour over jagged rocks when there is absolutely no useful purpose for doing so and sometimes people crash into those rocks?

Why do we allow people free climb mountains for absolutely no reason when safety gear is available?

Why do we allow people fly in experimental airplanes that they built themselves?

Why do we allow people to climb Everest for no useful purpose when there are dead frozen bodies littering the trail?

Why do we allow motorcycle ice racing with spiked wheels?

Why did we allow Dale Earnhardt to do something that ended up with him slamming into a wall?

Why was snow skiing not stopped with Sonny Bono and Liam Neeson's wife?

Why do we allow recreational motorcycles on the same highways with 18-wheelers and cars?

Horseback riding, show jumping, bull riding, gymnastics, cheerleading, hockey, MMA, bicycle riding, parkour, base jumping, etc., etc., etc.

Why is football being particularly singled out? Why the push to kill football and no real push to kill all these other dangerous activities?

I'm guessing that it is because it is a working man's entertainment and is seen as more "common" and "uncouth" and more uniquely American by various journalists and opinion leaders.

(If you really want to do something.....stop kids under 18 from using ATV's/3-wheelers).
Exactly. There is political agenda. The New York times is leading the charge...
12-27-2017 09:01 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
The commie leftists want to force soccer on us by any means necessary
12-27-2017 10:31 PM
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rtaylor Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Philosophically, I agree. It's becoming apparent that football leads to brain injury for just about all players. And 99% of those players will never make any money worth mentioning for suffering that.

Nevertheless, I've watched it for 45 years and I'd be lying if i said i was going to stop. About to turn the Pinstripe Bowl on right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.
12-27-2017 11:27 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
Is CTE unique to American football? Is it prevalent in Canadian football? Aussie Football? Rugby? If not, it would seem something as simple as changing a few rules and some additional safety equipment might be all that is needed.

Killing football is throwing the baby out with the bath water. As Mark said, violence is about intent. If you intend to hurt someone, you will probably succeed, and hurt yourself in the process.

The thing that would make me stop watching is if football did not implement some change in equipment or rules or intentionally took out something making the game less safe. If teams said they were not going to pay $8k for helmets that minimize CTE or (extreme example) said they were going to take way helmets all together, I would stop watching.

One immediate change I can think of is to limit player weights. Have a 6'2" guy that weighs 300, even 400 pounds is crazy. Then we make him run around and smash into another 300 pound guy. It's not muscle either, it's mostly fat. Those health issues are probably just as bad as the CTE.
12-28-2017 12:03 AM
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Philosophically, I agree. It's becoming apparent that football leads to brain injury for just about all players. And 99% of those players will never make any money worth mentioning for suffering that.

Nevertheless, I've watched it for 45 years and I'd be lying if i said i was going to stop. About to turn the Pinstripe Bowl on right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

The science is not settled.

Discover Magazine
12-28-2017 01:38 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
Well, there's ethical reasons to hop off of college football. The sport itself, not so much.
12-28-2017 08:45 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #27
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Philosophically, I agree. It's becoming apparent that football leads to brain injury for just about all players. And 99% of those players will never make any money worth mentioning for suffering that.

Nevertheless, I've watched it for 45 years and I'd be lying if i said i was going to stop. About to turn the Pinstripe Bowl on right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

How on earth did you glean any of that from what I said? You are already blissfully ignorant if you can't read any better than that.
12-28-2017 09:23 AM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Philosophically, I agree. It's becoming apparent that football leads to brain injury for just about all players. And 99% of those players will never make any money worth mentioning for suffering that.

Nevertheless, I've watched it for 45 years and I'd be lying if i said i was going to stop. About to turn the Pinstripe Bowl on right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

How on earth did you glean any of that from what I said? You are already blissfully ignorant if you can't read any better than that.

Would you look at that. The "I'm better and smarter than you" retort. 07-coffee3
12-28-2017 09:51 AM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
U take away their sweat shops, and they have no jobs.
12-28-2017 09:58 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #30
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 09:51 AM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 04:56 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Philosophically, I agree. It's becoming apparent that football leads to brain injury for just about all players. And 99% of those players will never make any money worth mentioning for suffering that.

Nevertheless, I've watched it for 45 years and I'd be lying if i said i was going to stop. About to turn the Pinstripe Bowl on right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

How on earth did you glean any of that from what I said? You are already blissfully ignorant if you can't read any better than that.

Would you look at that. The "I'm better and smarter than you" retort. 07-coffee3

No, it's the "If you are going to sling insults at somebody for what they said, you should at least get what they said right" retort.
12-28-2017 10:07 AM
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 09:58 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  U take away their sweat shops, and they have no jobs.

That's when you start taxing the shiite out of those that do have jobs.
12-28-2017 10:28 AM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #32
Cool RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
Embrace the true football.
12-28-2017 10:55 AM
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 10:55 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Embrace the true football.

Detroit City FC? 03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao
12-28-2017 10:59 AM
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Ohio Poly Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 06:43 PM)No Bull Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 05:37 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Piggybacking on the OP: Is there a single, event-horizon moment that would have you seriously consider no longer watching football? A major star dying on the field after a hit? A younger Hall of Famer having a Chris Benoit breakdown? A definitive medical study showing severe cognitive disabilities for a sizable number of players at all levels? Would a cumulative effect be enough?


Should soccer be played with nerf balls to stop the brain damage "heading" causes?

You're on the right track. Football helmets could be made of a foam material that cushions impact rather than hard shells that transmit it directly to the brain. At any rate, boycotting football in its current dangerous form would quickly lead to some kind of changes to improve safety, eliminating the need for further boycotting.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/the-s...-headgear/

https://www.wired.com/2016/01/the-zero1-...rs-brains/

https://www.final-score.com/product/ROCK...wsQAvD_BwE

https://www.sportsadvantage.com/gamebrea...e-headgear
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2017 06:52 PM by Ohio Poly.)
12-28-2017 11:15 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 08:57 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 05:37 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Piggybacking on the OP: Is there a single, event-horizon moment that would have you seriously consider no longer watching football? A major star dying on the field after a hit? A younger Hall of Famer having a Chris Benoit breakdown? A definitive medical study showing severe cognitive disabilities for a sizable number of players at all levels? Would a cumulative effect be enough?

Why do we allow people jump out of airplanes for no real useful purpose when sometimes people crash into the ground?

Why do we allow people put on wing suits and sail at 60 miles per hour over jagged rocks when there is absolutely no useful purpose for doing so and sometimes people crash into those rocks?

Why do we allow people free climb mountains for absolutely no reason when safety gear is available?

Why do we allow people fly in experimental airplanes that they built themselves?

Why do we allow people to climb Everest for no useful purpose when there are dead frozen bodies littering the trail?

Why do we allow motorcycle ice racing with spiked wheels?

Why did we allow Dale Earnhardt to do something that ended up with him slamming into a wall?

Why was snow skiing not stopped with Sonny Bono and Liam Neeson's wife?

Why do we allow recreational motorcycles on the same highways with 18-wheelers and cars?

Horseback riding, show jumping, bull riding, gymnastics, cheerleading, hockey, MMA, bicycle riding, parkour, base jumping, etc., etc., etc.

Why is football being particularly singled out? Why the push to kill football and no real push to kill all these other dangerous activities?

I'm guessing that it is because it is a working man's entertainment and is seen as more "common" and "uncouth" and more uniquely American by various journalists and opinion leaders.

(If you really want to do something.....stop kids under 18 from using ATV's/3-wheelers).

I would strongly suggest that it is because it is aggressive in nature and we now have an audience that fears the image of strong aggressive males. After all we are speaking of a generation where the slight raising of one's voice is now considered a hostile act rather than emphasis, where looking someone in the eye is invasive, and where all forms of correction of poor performance on the job is inappropriate.

I think quite often now about the prospects for our future as a nation and I cringe at what kind of world I believe my grandchildren will inherit. All of these omnipotent ways of thinking inside the limited world of the cyber box vox populi scare the hell out of me.

BTW in your list you failed to mention the extra exposure to solar radiation that all airline pilots and flight attendants suffer from each time they take us up to 35,000 ft. I suppose everyone who uses that mode of transportation is an uncaring advantaged dolt to put all of those poor people at such a high risk of advanced cellular degradation huh?

If the world has proven one thing to be true in every epoch it's that a certain degree of machismo and aggression is essential for survival and certain amount of organized restraint of aggression is essential for civilization. Too little aggression and nations fall, their citizens are enslaved, suffer genocide, and/or are dispossessed leaving them little with which to survive. Too much aggression and civilization fails.

I consider pugilistic sports and marshal arts to be essential tools in preparing an otherwise peaceful people a means through which to approximate a mental preparedness for group survival. Technology won't keep us free, in fact it may only provide a more compelling means by which to enslave us. But all war essentially devolves to boots on the ground. When that happens survival depends in large part upon plain old primitive aggression. If you can't get in touch with that you die.

The attitudes, sensitivity, and lack of social skills of this present generation simply are byproducts of an education and values system that have only prepared our grandchildren to be slaves and victims. They all think that life owes them everything, that hard work is oppression, and that there will always be a police officer or good guy there to defend them. That much delusion never ends well.

So whether football prepares someone for having CTE is not as fearful to me as not having a means of learning physical confidence under stress, the concept of 11 people working together selflessly to accomplish a goal, and the experience of a mild form of hand to hand combat. Why do I feel that way when CTE is so awful a prospect? Because with the breakdown of face to face social connections and a sense of being in this together a emotionally and physically unprepared person hasn't got a chance. You don't solve bullying by expelling the victim along with the bully. You solve bullying by standing up to one and standing up for their victims. Our weaknesses only emboldens the aggressive. Our strength only discourages them. Our hardscrabble generations of pioneers fought the civil war, helped to end WWI, helped to win and did essentially end WWII. We still have young people capable of tackling the horrors of combat, but they are no longer the majority. I think that started changing with Viet Nam where the privileged largely avoided the responsibility of service. In a world with increasing population and decreasing natural resources our enemies now only fear our technology. When that advantage is equalized they will be at our throats because they no longer fear our resolve, because they know we no longer have toughness, or the knowledge of self defense, or the courage of our ancestors. And what's even worse is that as a society we cry victim over the most minor affronts and argue about who can & can't use public bathrooms, and nothing screams come destroy us as well as that. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2017 12:05 PM by JRsec.)
12-28-2017 11:59 AM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 10:07 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 09:51 AM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 07:11 PM)ken d Wrote:  I'm not sure I agree with that bolded statement. It may be true, but I think science is a long way from knowing that with any certainty.

That being said, I expect that the current emphasis on CTE is likely to lead science to eventually find a way to diagnose such injury while the patient is still alive. Until then, the best we can do is determine that people who we suspect were suffering from CTE based on their behavior post-sports, actually had the condition. So far, the data suggests our suspicions of brain damage are correct 99% of the time.

If we develop such a diagnostic tool, and decide to mandate its use as a precondition of allowing players to participate in sports, it should IMO be required for all sports - not just football. How long do you suppose boxing or MMA would last if the only people allowed to participate were those who had suffered no brain trauma?

Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

How on earth did you glean any of that from what I said? You are already blissfully ignorant if you can't read any better than that.

Would you look at that. The "I'm better and smarter than you" retort. 07-coffee3

No, it's the "If you are going to sling insults at somebody for what they said, you should at least get what they said right" retort.

So in other words you think you're better and much smarter than rtaylor. Duly noted.
12-28-2017 12:08 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #37
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-28-2017 12:08 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 10:07 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 09:51 AM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(12-28-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 11:27 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  Wait. So you are saying that repeated blows to the head do not cause damage or CTE? What hole have you had your head in for all these years? Would love to come join you and lead a blissfully ignorant life as well.

How on earth did you glean any of that from what I said? You are already blissfully ignorant if you can't read any better than that.

Would you look at that. The "I'm better and smarter than you" retort. 07-coffee3

No, it's the "If you are going to sling insults at somebody for what they said, you should at least get what they said right" retort.

So in other words you think you're better and much smarter than rtaylor. Duly noted.

Apparently, you can't read any better than he can. Duly noted.
12-28-2017 12:48 PM
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Sellular1 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 02:20 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  http://www.startribune.com/boycott-footb...466668883/

excerpted:

If you knowingly purchase clothing sewn in sweatshops and you have the financial means to do otherwise, you are complicit in the evils of that labor practice. You have done something wrong and harmed the workers. Some of the cocoa that goes into commercial chocolates is harvested using slave and child labor. Ignoring that fact and buying chocolate from companies that have not reformed their production processes supports this abhorrent practice and is therefore wrong.

Each of us has an obligation to opt for ethically produced items when given the option.

American football devastates players. Beyond persistent pain throughout the body, former players at the high school, college and professional levels all face an increased likelihood of developing chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative neurological condition marked by memory loss, erratic behavior, poor decisionmaking, bouts of rage and suicidal thoughts.

I'm not "obligated" to do anything, except laugh at your post.
12-28-2017 02:59 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
Listening to Beth Mowings causes CTE.
12-28-2017 05:21 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Boycott football for good – it's the ethical thing to do
(12-27-2017 02:20 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  http://www.startribune.com/boycott-footb...466668883/

excerpted:

If you knowingly purchase clothing sewn in sweatshops and you have the financial means to do otherwise, you are complicit in the evils of that labor practice. You have done something wrong and harmed the workers. Some of the cocoa that goes into commercial chocolates is harvested using slave and child labor. Ignoring that fact and buying chocolate from companies that have not reformed their production processes supports this abhorrent practice and is therefore wrong.

Each of us has an obligation to opt for ethically produced items when given the option.

American football devastates players. Beyond persistent pain throughout the body, former players at the high school, college and professional levels all face an increased likelihood of developing chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative neurological condition marked by memory loss, erratic behavior, poor decisionmaking, bouts of rage and suicidal thoughts.

The difference between the sweat shop worker in Thailand and the football player in Pittsburgh is that the football player has a much, much better array of opportunities to make a living in a way that will provide a decent quality of life. They choose to play football because 1.) they are passionate about the game, and 2.) they get upward mobility from it, either through a college education (though they may have to fight coaches and advisers on the way to a worthwhile degree) or six-figure-plus salaries in the NFL. They do this in spite of, and perhaps even because of, the risks involved.

Boxing is always my go-to for discussions like this; people know repeatedly getting hit in the head causes long-term cognitive issues, but men and women still get in the ring because they love boxing and believe it can lead to a better life for themselves and/or their families than if they were working behind a desk. We've known for a long time that the sort of impacts seen in football can lead to serious
long-term consequences - whether it's boxing or car accidents or what have you - but we've never put two and two together as a society. Now that we have, a massive moral panic is brewing that leads to questionable (to be kind) takes like this one.

The NFL has behaved unethically, I can agree with that. Fighting to suppress concussion studies and denying players a better picture of the risks they take is bad on its face. But those studies don't show us as fans or them as players anything we don't already intuitively understand - football players take a beating that sticks with them for the rest of their lives.

All that said, the game will always be there. Will it dominate the national sports scene in 30 years the way it does now? Maybe not, but there will still be an audience and there will still be people who want to play. Those who play will simply have a better understanding of the risks they take when they suit up. Those who choose to walk away will do other things with their lives and no one with any sense will be bothered by it.
12-29-2017 05:44 PM
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