Rian Johnson should never be allowed to direct another film. He has single-handedly destroyed the American institution known as Star Wars. The prequels were bad, but not terminal. If you have yet to go see it, my best advice is "Don't". Wait for it to be released on Blu-ray or show up on Netflix. Aside from one decent light-saber fight, it was awful.

1. Character don't stay true to their personalities- This idiot director expects us to buy that Luke would contemplate killing his nephew? Luke wouldn't even consider taking down his father after he whacked an entire planet, but he's going snuff his sister's innocent kid in his sleep? That's just stupid. Snoke has been built up to be this very powerful Sith. He even tosses around Rey like a cat toying with a mouse. This mighty Sith Lord can mentally connect two very unique force sensitive individuals from across the galaxy, but can sense (or hear for that matter) a light-saber on the arm of his chair being moved by a nervous Kylo? Just stupid.

2. Inconsistent with the known Star Wars Universe (and in some cases "reality")- The bombs falling in space was stupid. I guess science isn't a course requisite for a film degree at USC. In a related problem, why did the ridiculous bombers even have to move a snails pace? It was like watching Dr. Nefario exiting on his hoveround power chair. If Leia would have died in the beginning of the film when the tie fights hit the command deck. Watching her icy body contort into the Superman pose and Mary Poppins herself back to the ship was the worst single scene in the history of serious film. Luke calling a light-saber a light sword was totally out of character. The entire premise of this film, the idea that Jedi are not special flies directly in the face of everything this franchise was built on. Of course they are special. They can use the force. If that isn't special then everyone in these films would be doing it.

3. Too many useless characters- Never cared for Fin's character. He was useless in the Force Awakens, and more so in the Last Jedi. His big adventure to the casino world was a flop, didn't have any impact on the story, and only really served to introduce another useless character in Rose. Because of this arch we also had to endure a stuttering Benicio del Toro. What a waste of a good actor. Laura Dern's character was a waste too. Her whole conflict with Poe was stupid too, and I thought the story would have been better without her. The furry little creature Chewbacca and Rey brought back was not needed either. Phasma didn't do much in TFA, and went out like a chump in the Last Jedi, so she should also be added onto the useless character list too. Even Leia after Supermaning herself back to the ship becomes a useless character, because when she does wake up from her coma, the sight of her reminds me of how stupid it is fer her to even be back on the ship.

4. Too much liberal agenda- The whole passive ideals of retreating at every opportunity, and going out of their way to have the characters that turn to fight portrayed as ignorant hot heads got old quick. Pointing out the social justice aspects of the casino world where the rich are crooked and the poor are used served as an oversimplification of real world issues. They even threw a bone to the animal rights liberals with their handling of the racing livestock. In fact every guy in this film was either portrayed as a hot head idiot, or a whiny chump. Had all the female characters been handled in this way, there would be riots in Berkeley.

5. The whole idea that Rey's family isn't important- Kylo levels with Rey telling her that her family were just junk traders and they sold her out for beer money. Wow, does that suck. I know we live in a society that doesn't care much for the institution of a traditional family, but the entire franchise was built on the idea that a few people are unique and can become extraordinary. Taking that away and reducing the Jedi Order down to just a feeling that anyone can summon totally negates the magic of the Star Wars universe. I know it is a liberal concept that everyone is special, but it just isn't true in the real world. In fact no one is special, but through hard work and discipline unique people can do extraordinary things with their lives, which mirrors the idea of the Jedi, and their need to train to become a master.

I will update this rant as I remember more things about this movie that were terrible. In my opinion, it is the Godfather III of the Star Wars franchise. Worse, because it totally ruins whatever happens next. At least the Godfather was smart enough to quit. I hate Disney so much.

So tell us how you really feel!

**************

I get your point but my thoughts to this scenario would be that, Luke at the end of Jedi was pretty darn happy that even he could turn his dad, Darth Vader back from the clutches of The Emperor and the fact his dad told him so was probably a very big emotional moment for him. Then, say he takes on training his sister and best friend's son in the ways of the Jedi only to have Kylo go dark on him. Mentally I could see him thinking that he performed one of toughest turn-arounds ever yet when being basically entrusted to return the Jedi back to prominence and then losing his sister's son to the dark side that that would be one hell of an emotional weight to be held under. I could see him questioning a lot with the Jedi order and its teaching and what not. In other words if he was supposed to be the light for future Jedi and with his family history that his nephew turned would be one serious blow to his mental state. That said, I have the same problem along some lines of thought with Kylo turning dark. I mean, its not like his parents wouldn't tell him what happened and how it turned out for his uncle and its not like Luke wouldn't tell him more or less the same thing. Then, if he believes Darth Vader was so bad ass and aspires to be the heir apparent to him then how would he reconcile his turn at the very end to the good side of the force? Now I'll admit that I don't know much about his upbringing and what kind of story in his personal history would have set him down that path.

Snoke's handling was BS though, I will give you that. He can't come off that bad ass and First Order forward thinking as well as Jedi/Sith forward thinking and not get built up more into something. I will say I did like Kylo using his thoughts about the events against him in that he was seeing what was going on between Kylo and Rey and Kylo was turning that sabre in the same manner into him. IMO, my main beef is he was to underdeveloped in the end game of it all.

Rey's lineage was BS as well. I mean, I could argue Anakin ( and probably likely other Jedi) could have been started from scratch so to speak but to show that glimpse/flashback and it to lead to something so empty of being interesting that to me was a major blow to what could have been.

Fin's character could have been a lot more interesting than he actually was too. I mean, a Storm Trooper defecting and all that could entail from the inside scoop like he did offer a few times to other matters just could have been more significant.

My brother and I both felt that the whole casino planet thing felt tacked on and didn't really fit into the movie as a whole. I mean the whole talk to Maz(?), find Codebreaker, but its that guy and not the other guy... just felt way to convoluted and out of sync to the story.

I don't mind Benicio's character being a double dealer in terms of arms dealer for both sides and that is how he knows things, but if he was as good as he was supposed to be, why the hell was he stuck in that prison to begin with?

Leia's flying back to the ship.... yeah.... that was weird.

Klyo and Rey's ultra interesting psychic link/Force link thing was kind of cool as an ability but .... yeah...


**********

In regards to the prequel trilogy though...

I think that trilogy fell victim to two main things: 1) It had to end a certain way and 2) Lucas was way to into all the digital FX he could do versus making stuff simpler and more direct. IMO, Attack of the Clones was the only real good movie of those 3. The last entry of that one had to end a certain way and they had to show certain set up points but my problem with it was that it just seemed way to convoluted to get there. My only real beef with The Phantom Menace was that Darth Maul was SO BAD ASS but he went out like such a *****. I mean, really, Obi-wan manages to have an epiphany that he's a Jedi and jumps out of the pit and cuts him in half after a good long and otherwise intense and well done light sabre duel--come on now. Also, with all props to Padme' Amidalla, the pootietang wasn't that great to go all Dark Side for to save it.

Fully agree that the Last Jedi sucked. Possibly the worst Star Wars. I have a few other things/ questions to add.

1st, Luke said three lessons. Why not show the 3rd lesson?

2nd,What happened to the other Jedi students that turned to the dark side?

3rd, Why the hell didn't they use the smaller ships that where allowed to be destroyed on the suicide flight?

4th, Why wasn't the admiral on the dreadnaught the leader of the first order? He seemed to know his ****.

5th, The Sith and the Jedi are the actual reasons to watch Star Wars. Without them. It's just a space movie. Snoke wasn't a Sith lord. He was a force user only. Why the difference?

6th, Chewbacca does nothing anymore?

Wow. I can understand some criticisms but you feel this is worse than Episode I (annoying Jar Jar Binks and the bad actor kid "Annie") or Episode II with flatlining Hayden Christensen?

Heh. Saw a great tweet the other day, imagining JJ Abrams' pitch for Episode IX: "It was all a dream!"

No offense intended, but lots of these criticisms are nit picks. Nit picks I agree with but certainly didn't spoil the movie for me. And it feels like most of the significant criticisms come from the idea that the Expanded Universe and "canon" are so terribly precious. I just don't feel that way, and in fact am growing to like the movie the more I think about it. Just a couple of examples/rebuttals:
Snoke - How much did you know about the Emperor when he died in VI? Almost nothing from IV, and some from V. No background, very little development. Didn't take away from the story of the original trilogy at all.
Rey - Holy crap, the Jedi are an Order of celibates! Why are people demanding that Jedi be descended from other Jedi? They pretty much HAVE to be able to come from "anywhere". I thought that scene with Kylo and Rey was easily one of the best in the film.

(12-22-2017 11:37 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  2nd,What happened to the other Jedi students that turned to the dark side?

I assume they are the Knights of Ren. Would have been interesting to see them but it seems they could be pulled in to IX, supporting Kylo. Kind of a "court" maybe?

(12-22-2017 09:28 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  Phasma didn't do much in TFA, and went out like a chump in the Last Jedi...

Has there ever been a more hyped character that added so little value to a movie? That freaking chromed suit spawned so much merch.

(12-22-2017 11:52 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Wow. I can understand some criticisms but you feel this is worse than Episode I (annoying Jar Jar Binks and the bad actor kid "Annie") or Episode II with flatlining Hayden Christensen?

Those movies had there flaws but were a least trying to be part of the Star Wars lore. They showed what it was like to be a Jedi/Sith. Although I agree with Jar Jar. He was a wasted character with no growth. But episode 9 goes out of its way to kill any thoughts of those religions. Luke even says that that old religion needs to die and the Sith aren't ever even mentioned.

JarvJar was a Sith Lord..... they were going to pull a Kaiser Soze but the backlash at his character was so intense......

(12-23-2017 08:23 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 11:52 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Wow. I can understand some criticisms but you feel this is worse than Episode I (annoying Jar Jar Binks and the bad actor kid "Annie") or Episode II with flatlining Hayden Christensen?

Those movies had there flaws but were a least trying to be part of the Star Wars lore. They showed what it was like to be a Jedi/Sith. Although I agree with Jar Jar. He was a wasted character with no growth. But episode 9 goes out of its way to kill any thoughts of those religions. Luke even says that that old religion needs to die and the Sith aren't ever even mentioned.

I respect your opinion and others as passionate Star Wars fans. I guess there are those that put higher value on keeping "true" to the storylines and plots and others (like me) that just want to be entertained after spending money to gain entry. Neither is wrong. Maybe that's the point of the latest movie - to get people talking and bringing in new fans to the franchise.

(12-23-2017 01:41 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Heh. Saw a great tweet the other day, imagining JJ Abrams' pitch for Episode IX: "It was all a dream!"

No offense intended, but lots of these criticisms are nit picks. Nit picks I agree with but certainly didn't spoil the movie for me. And it feels like most of the significant criticisms come from the idea that the Expanded Universe and "canon" are so terribly precious. I just don't feel that way, and in fact am growing to like the movie the more I think about it. Just a couple of examples/rebuttals:
Snoke - How much did you know about the Emperor when he died in VI? Almost nothing from IV, and some from V. No background, very little development. Didn't take away from the story of the original trilogy at all.
Rey - Holy crap, the Jedi are an Order of celibates! Why are people demanding that Jedi be descended from other Jedi? They pretty much HAVE to be able to come from "anywhere". I thought that scene with Kylo and Rey was easily one of the best in the film.

It isn't nit picking. With this film Rian Johnson has taken a dump on the entire known Star Wars Universe. The concept of the good Jedi battling the evil Sith for the freedom of the galaxy is the backbone of the entire franchise. By taking that premise away, Johnson and Disney have turned this into a completely different thing. They may as well call their next installment by some other name, because under this new premise it will fail to be Star Wars. I guess the liberal think-tank at Disney could go more PC and name it "Star Capitulations: The Whinny Retreat Continues".

Because of the power Rey demonstrated in the Force Awakens, she needed to be a Skywalker. Johnson messed that up too. Of Course Jedi don't have to be the offspring of other Jedi, but Rey did. Anakin (Darth Vader), was the most powerful Jedi ever; created by the Force itself. He had no father. A Jedi with comparable power to his and more power then Vader's grandson (Kylo), just can't emerge from no where. The Force created the ultimate Force user. To have a random person born with powers that appear to be as strong or stronger then Anakin, without even providing a reason, is just stupid. I don't think anyone is arguing that Jedi can come from anywhere, just that Rey should have, because of her level of strength with the Force.

I knew immediately after TFA that the majority of this new canon ("Disney-era canon") wouldn't be my cup of tea, but there are certain things that just bother me. The treatment of supporting characters, new and old, has been one of those things. There was potential for meaningful character development for Chewbacca and Phasma, and both have been downgraded (in Phasma's case, flatly hurled down and away from the plot). Han's death in TFA was an opportunity for Disney to cherrypick the Wookie life-debt concept from the Legends-era canon and give Chewbacca something meaningful to do with his screentime. (ie. go after Kylo to avenge Solo and fulfill the debt) As of now Chewie has been relegated to comic relief, which is sad.

Phasma is even worse. Talented actress, unique costume, potential for mystery and intrigue similar to Fett, and...nothing. She gets a few Nurse Ratched-type lines, a brief fight with one of the secondary protagonists, and then she gets offed via disappearing into explosion. Why create a unique character that stands out if you're just going to off them in a conventional way

(12-22-2017 11:52 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Wow. I can understand some criticisms but you feel this is worse than Episode I (annoying Jar Jar Binks and the bad actor kid "Annie") or Episode II with flatlining Hayden Christensen?

Here's the difference between the prequel and the sequel trilogies. The prequel trilogies, at the very least, and a central plot line throughout the three movies that pushed the story through. Sure, you can argue that the prequel movies are poorly executed (and I would agree with that), but at least the central plot is there to carry you through.

The sequel trilogy (up to this point) have no tangible central plot that you can follow, IMO. It seems to be a series of movies made up of subplots, some of which carry over to the next movie, but no central plot. This stems from the fact that these writers and creators did not map out the entire trilogy for all three movies before they started making the first movie. It really seems like they are patching the movies together as they go along.

(12-23-2017 11:16 AM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 01:41 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Heh. Saw a great tweet the other day, imagining JJ Abrams' pitch for Episode IX: "It was all a dream!"

No offense intended, but lots of these criticisms are nit picks. Nit picks I agree with but certainly didn't spoil the movie for me. And it feels like most of the significant criticisms come from the idea that the Expanded Universe and "canon" are so terribly precious. I just don't feel that way, and in fact am growing to like the movie the more I think about it. Just a couple of examples/rebuttals:
Snoke - How much did you know about the Emperor when he died in VI? Almost nothing from IV, and some from V. No background, very little development. Didn't take away from the story of the original trilogy at all.
Rey - Holy crap, the Jedi are an Order of celibates! Why are people demanding that Jedi be descended from other Jedi? They pretty much HAVE to be able to come from "anywhere". I thought that scene with Kylo and Rey was easily one of the best in the film.

It isn't nit picking. With this film Rian Johnson has taken a dump on the entire known Star Wars Universe. The concept of the good Jedi battling the evil Sith for the freedom of the galaxy is the backbone of the entire franchise. By taking that premise away, Johnson and Disney have turned this into a completely different thing. They may as well call their next installment by some other name, because under this new premise it will fail to be Star Wars. I guess the liberal think-tank at Disney could go more PC and name it "Star Capitulations: The Whinny Retreat Continues".

Because of the power Rey demonstrated in the Force Awakens, she needed to be a Skywalker. Johnson messed that up too. Of Course Jedi don't have to be the offspring of other Jedi, but Rey did. Anakin (Darth Vader), was the most powerful Jedi ever; created by the Force itself. He had no father. A Jedi with comparable power to his and more power then Vader's grandson (Kylo), just can't emerge from no where. The Force created the ultimate Force user. To have a random person born with powers that appear to be as strong or stronger then Anakin, without even providing a reason, is just stupid. I don't think anyone is arguing that Jedi can come from anywhere, just that Rey should have, because of her level of strength with the Force.

Rey's ability to use the force with no training kinda irks me a bit. Anakin, the most power force user known, still had years of training to hone his power. Prior to training he just had very good intuition and skills, but could not manipulate the force to bring him objects, lightsaber wielding, etc.... If they want Rey to be the most powerful force user (or even the Chosen One x3) then fine, but they are going to have to sell me on the reasoning behind it, which they have failed to do it.

Saw this last night and agree it isnt the best Star Wars movie. IMO, the Rose character was added to help sell tickets in Asia. I didnt mind the character but agree the whole Casino sequence was useless. Pricness Leia floating in space was a definite WTF moment.

I saw it yesterday and I enjoyed it, but there was a lot of stuff in it that was totally unnecessary.

Leia in space...
Casino....
Benicio Del Toro's character in general...
The whole rejection of religion, history, etc....

Jedi Skywalker is very disappointed in some of you.

(12-26-2017 06:41 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Jedi Skywalker is very disappointed in some of you.

Jedi Skywalker had kind of turned into a homeless bag of massengill.

(12-26-2017 07:26 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(12-26-2017 06:41 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Jedi Skywalker is very disappointed in some of you.

Jedi Skywalker had kind of turned into a homeless bag of massengill.

(12-26-2017 06:41 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Jedi Skywalker is very disappointed in some of you.

Jedi Skywalker milked a sea-cow then turned around and drank it while giving Rey a very creepy stare. Truth is, this film had killed Jedi Skywalker before he faded away at the end of the movie.