(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  ...And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him...

Why didn't he walk-on at Wright St or Dayton?

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him. And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

Please don’t equate performance in an exhibition game to that in a regular season game. As I’ve posted ad nauseum, Findlay beat OSU the year they were a Final Four Team.

(12-17-2017 04:07 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him. And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

Please don’t equate performance in an exhibition game to that in a regular season game. As I’ve posted ad nauseum, Findlay beat OSU the year they were a Final Four Team.

Facts don't matter to UTF.

(12-17-2017 04:05 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  ...And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

(12-17-2017 04:07 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him...

Why didn't he walk-on at Wright St or Dayton?

He probably didnt want to play. That doesnt mean an offer from a local d1 wouldnt have changed his mind??? I dont know his story at all. He scored a ton of points his juinior and senior year and played the best competition in the State. Final 4 his junior year. Quarter finals loss to state champ his senior year.

(12-17-2017 04:11 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:05 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  ...And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:11 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:05 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  ...And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. 3.5 assist/ turnover ratio. He also is in his 5th year after 2acl tears and doesnt play like he did his freshman year showed he could. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state if you literally mean D1. Glover from SJJ went there and was probably their best player, but he ended up transfering to Lake Erie college so he could win there. So now is he NAIA talent?

D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. For us right now itd be Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us. Give a kid 5 years at a MAC school with better competition and oh YEAH he could contribute. What is rogers for us doing on the bench??? Hes a true pg at least.

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:11 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:05 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  ...And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

(12-17-2017 04:22 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:11 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:05 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  1) What don't you understand about EXHIBITION games?

2) Again, if he was good enough to play D1, he would be playing D1. But he is not. In his career at Findlay, he has started 39 of 74 games played. Averages 19.2 mins/gm. Averages 3.2 pts/gm. Yea, that's D1 talent right there!

The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

Okay.
If we are so good at predicting talent, who have we brought in that Ohio and Akron hasnt to get us over the hump? Why was the Brown from WMU better than our Brown in crunch time?
What exactly is it that you like about coach K? We have established he has developed nice humans that do their part hitting the books. What about his on court philosophy makes you want him to return next year? Why coach K and not someone else?

My first question to K before he even coached a game was if there was a possibility he would retain 6-9 Zac Taylor out of Clay HS... K got very defensive, bristled, responding “ we don’t take damaged goods “. That comment stuck with me over the years... And at the game Saturday, I heard he got backed into a corner by a question off the air at the Rocket coaches show(Frickers). He does not like to be questioned or (second guessed).

(12-17-2017 05:05 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:22 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:11 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The top 25% of all college basketball players are not 100% D1. Lots of non D1 caliber guys play D1, and some of the top 25% guys in college basketball play in the D2 or D3 level. Youd never have an NBA player ever from a D2 school then. By that logic the 330th D1 team would beat the #1 D2 team. Some of the best players in the country arent d1. Just like there are midmajor players as good as ACC players.

I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

Okay.
If we are so good at predicting talent, who have we brought in that Ohio and Akron hasnt to get us over the hump? Why was the Brown from WMU better than our Brown in crunch time?
What exactly is it that you like about coach K? We have established he has developed nice humans that do their part hitting the books. What about his on court philosophy makes you want him to return next year? Why coach K and not someone else?

I didn't say I like him. I didn't say I don't like him. He's seems like a decent guy and decent coach. I don't like his substitution patterns (Adway looks like he should get more PT, same with Rose; I don't like how he pulls the young guys out after they make 1 mistake). They need to preach defense more, and there is no need for the coaches to have to yell "GET BACK!" everytime down the court.

But to call him garbage? That's garbage.

And I love how people on this board like to criticize his recruiting, yet some want him to recruit guys that weren't even recruited by D1 schools! See: Brett Lauf. And the guys you named above. Not recruited to be D1 players, yet people here like to criticize him for not recruiting them. Completely hypocritical.

But I would put money down that he will be here next year. His contract is through 2020-21 season, so I don't see them firing him with 3 years left on his contract. And there is only 1 scholarship senior this year (Fletcher), so next year there is a chance to be pretty good.

(12-17-2017 05:29 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:05 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:22 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

Okay.
If we are so good at predicting talent, who have we brought in that Ohio and Akron hasnt to get us over the hump? Why was the Brown from WMU better than our Brown in crunch time?
What exactly is it that you like about coach K? We have established he has developed nice humans that do their part hitting the books. What about his on court philosophy makes you want him to return next year? Why coach K and not someone else?

I didn't say I like him. I didn't say I don't like him. He's seems like a decent guy and decent coach. I don't like his substitution patterns (Adway looks like he should get more PT, same with Rose; I don't like how he pulls the young guys out after they make 1 mistake). They need to preach defense more, and there is no need for the coaches to have to yell "GET BACK!" everytime down the court.

But to call him garbage? That's garbage.

And I love how people on this board like to criticize his recruiting, yet some want him to recruit guys that weren't even recruited by D1 schools! See: Brett Lauf. And the guys you named above. Not recruited to be D1 players, yet people here like to criticize him for not recruiting them. Completely hypocritical.

But I would put money down that he will be here next year. His contract is through 2020-21 season, so I don't see them firing him with 3 years left on his contract. And there is only 1 scholarship senior this year (Fletcher), so next year there is a chance to be pretty good.

Talent level is there... Most of us agree. But then we lose to Wright State and Marshall and are a repeated 6 thru 9 seed in the MAC tourney. So then we QUESTION the talent. We ask ourselves after every painful loss... Is it talent or coaching?? We go through a tailspin of mind boggling questions. IMO PG play is bad right now... And I LOVE sanford. I think he is a top 5 players in the league. But when he is the pg, we lose his scoring ability... When he doesnt score WE LOSE.

So me...as a critical fan asks, "who else from this area could have been a solid pg, not turn it over...and get our scorers the ball?" My answer was posted above.

Us as fans are getting driven crazy! To a point people arent buying tickets. Our game thread was 5 pages!!! We missed like 30 layups against Wright State. I dont think its talent??? But COACHING is for sure sloppy this season. And it has been in years past. Who gives a crap about his contract if we are the 9 seed again and 15-19 overall. If MOB sees no progress, he will be gone. We can disagree on this if you want. We may get to find out.

I think the team has the possibility to gel??? We could win the MAC? But nothing I have seen makes me think we are trending that way. Navigato hits 3 threes in the first half and looks basically on fire. He has 13 first half points if i remember correctly. Why did he get 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the 2nd half??? You dont have to be a genius to GET YOUR HOT SHOOTER THE BALL.

(12-17-2017 05:29 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:05 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:22 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:14 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  I see what you're saying. But Gardner is NOT D1. Look at his stats. There is no argument.

Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

Okay.
If we are so good at predicting talent, who have we brought in that Ohio and Akron hasnt to get us over the hump? Why was the Brown from WMU better than our Brown in crunch time?
What exactly is it that you like about coach K? We have established he has developed nice humans that do their part hitting the books. What about his on court philosophy makes you want him to return next year? Why coach K and not someone else?

I didn't say I like him. I didn't say I don't like him. He's seems like a decent guy and decent coach. I don't like his substitution patterns (Adway looks like he should get more PT, same with Rose; I don't like how he pulls the young guys out after they make 1 mistake). They need to preach defense more, and there is no need for the coaches to have to yell "GET BACK!" everytime down the court.

But to call him garbage? That's garbage.

And I love how people on this board like to criticize his recruiting, yet some want him to recruit guys that weren't even recruited by D1 schools! See: Brett Lauf. And the guys you named above. Not recruited to be D1 players, yet people here like to criticize him for not recruiting them. Completely hypocritical.

But I would put money down that he will be here next year. His contract is through 2020-21 season, so I don't see them firing him with 3 years left on his contract. And there is only 1 scholarship senior this year (Fletcher), so next year there is a chance to be pretty good.

Yep... JUST wait until NEXT year!!! Not with this coach. Just not gonna happen.

(12-17-2017 05:51 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:29 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:05 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:22 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:19 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Facilitator 100%. He distributes and doesnt turn it over. He could very well be a D1 player. Especially at a Chicago state. D1 caliber is hard to descript because there are some BAD D1 teams. Better than having a shooting guard bring the ball up for us.

Ok, a guy who starts just over 50% of games and averages under 20 minutes could be play for UT. Sure thing. Got it.

Okay.
If we are so good at predicting talent, who have we brought in that Ohio and Akron hasnt to get us over the hump? Why was the Brown from WMU better than our Brown in crunch time?
What exactly is it that you like about coach K? We have established he has developed nice humans that do their part hitting the books. What about his on court philosophy makes you want him to return next year? Why coach K and not someone else?

I didn't say I like him. I didn't say I don't like him. He's seems like a decent guy and decent coach. I don't like his substitution patterns (Adway looks like he should get more PT, same with Rose; I don't like how he pulls the young guys out after they make 1 mistake). They need to preach defense more, and there is no need for the coaches to have to yell "GET BACK!" everytime down the court.

But to call him garbage? That's garbage.

And I love how people on this board like to criticize his recruiting, yet some want him to recruit guys that weren't even recruited by D1 schools! See: Brett Lauf. And the guys you named above. Not recruited to be D1 players, yet people here like to criticize him for not recruiting them. Completely hypocritical.

But I would put money down that he will be here next year. His contract is through 2020-21 season, so I don't see them firing him with 3 years left on his contract. And there is only 1 scholarship senior this year (Fletcher), so next year there is a chance to be pretty good.

Talent level is there... Most of us agree. But then we lose to Wright State and Marshall and are a repeated 6 thru 9 seed in the MAC tourney. So then we QUESTION the talent. We ask ourselves after every painful loss... Is it talent or coaching?? We go through a tailspin of mind boggling questions. IMO PG play is bad right now... And I LOVE sanford. I think he is a top 5 players in the league. But when he is the pg, we lose his scoring ability... When he doesnt score WE LOSE.

So me...as a critical fan asks, "who else from this area could have been a solid pg, not turn it over...and get our scorers the ball?" My answer was posted above.

Us as fans are getting driven crazy! To a point people arent buying tickets. Our game thread was 5 pages!!! We missed like 30 layups against Wright State. I dont think its talent??? But COACHING is for sure sloppy this season. And it has been in years past. Who gives a crap about his contract if we are the 9 seed again and 15-19 overall. If MOB sees no progress, he will be gone. We can disagree on this if you want. We may get to find out.

I think the team has the possibility to gel??? We could win the MAC? But nothing I have seen makes me think we are trending that way. Navigato hits 3 threes in the first half and looks basically on fire. He has 13 first half points if i remember correctly. Why did he get 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the 2nd half??? You dont have to be a genius to GET YOUR HOT SHOOTER THE BALL.

Really? O'Brien's the one who gave him a contract extension. O'Brien needs to go too.

(12-17-2017 05:27 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  My first question to K before he even coached a game was if there was a possibility he would retain 6-9 Zac Taylor out of Clay HS... K got very defensive, bristled, responding “ we don’t take damaged goods “. That comment stuck with me over the years...

as it would with me, if I'd heard it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure my verbal response would have stuck with him. But I'm betting the crowd that heard it pretty much swallowed their response?

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him. And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

They beat us in a scrimmage, doesn't count. Gardner is not good enough to play DI, or he would be playing DI and not DII Findlay.

(12-17-2017 10:03 PM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Springs was one of the best players in Ohio. He chose to go to Wright State (i believe?) to be close to his girlfriend because local teams didnt offer him. And Gardner to Findlay? Thats a top tier D2 program that BEAT TOLEDO. He is as pure of a 1 guard you will see. Absolutely good enough to play that position here.

They beat us in a scrimmage, doesn't count. Gardner is not good enough to play DI, or he would be playing DI and not DII Findlay.

I have no opinion on Gardner, but it definitely is not the case that everyone who is good enough to play D1 is playing D1. The top players in DII would do just fine at a lot of D1 schools. Judging the potential of a high school player is not an exact science.

(12-17-2017 08:59 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:27 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  My first question to K before he even coached a game was if there was a possibility he would retain 6-9 Zac Taylor out of Clay HS... K got very defensive, bristled, responding “ we don’t take damaged goods “. That comment stuck with me over the years...

as it would with me, if I'd heard it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure my verbal response would have stuck with him. But I'm betting the crowd that heard it pretty much swallowed their response?

My nephew grew up with and was close friends with Zac. He did not have career ending injuries as many were led to believe. I had not heard those comments made by Kowalczyk until just now. Joplin started recruiting him hard during his sophomore year in HS and was his AAU coach for a couple of summers. I talked to him briefly a couple of times about UT and basketball - and he didn't bash anyone. He was just disillusioned with his time there without Joplin there - and what he felt was a lack of support from the team while he worked to recover from his injuries. It wasn't real clear why he ultimately left the team - or they left him out. I didn't ask him for specifics and it was clear he didn't want to talk about it either.

(12-18-2017 09:22 AM)MotoRocket Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 08:59 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 05:27 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  My first question to K before he even coached a game was if there was a possibility he would retain 6-9 Zac Taylor out of Clay HS... K got very defensive, bristled, responding “ we don’t take damaged goods “. That comment stuck with me over the years...

as it would with me, if I'd heard it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure my verbal response would have stuck with him. But I'm betting the crowd that heard it pretty much swallowed their response?

My nephew grew up with and was close friends with Zac. He did not have career ending injuries as many were led to believe. I had not heard those comments made by Kowalczyk until just now. Joplin started recruiting him hard during his sophomore year in HS and was his AAU coach for a couple of summers. I talked to him briefly a couple of times about UT and basketball - and he didn't bash anyone. He was just disillusioned with his time there without Joplin there - and what he felt was a lack of support from the team while he worked to recover from his injuries. It wasn't real clear why he ultimately left the team - or they left him out. I didn't ask him for specifics and it was clear he didn't want to talk about it either.

Zac(when healthy) and his 6-7 brother Wes, would have been a decent front line for the Rockets...