Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #1
To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
http://three-man-weave.com/3mw/2016/12/2...t-to-press

UNC Greensboro - If you look closely at the bottom of Figure 1 above, you'll see a big red block that jumps out at your face in far left column for 2016-17. That's because until this year, Wes Miller and the Spartans rarely, if ever, showed extended full-court pressure. Now 13 games in to Wes Miller's 5th season at the helm, only West Virginia's full-court pressure has forced more turnovers on a per possession basis. In fact, the Spartans 22nd nationally ranked defensive TO rate is far and away the best Miller has posted since arriving in Greensboro. The Spartans' effective full-court disruption has translated into a dramatic improvement in their overall defensive efficiency, a figure that ranked in the nation's bottom-100 in 5 of the past 6 seasons.


Read and digest the last sentence as Wes is a Carolina guy along with Buzz, Lebo, McGrath etc. Carolina ball works at Carolina. Wes abandoned Carolina ball and look at the change.
12-16-2017 03:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

CG_Hawk06 Online
CWO of the Board
*

Posts: 8,386
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 258
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Virginia
Post: #2
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 03:28 PM)82hawk Wrote:  http://three-man-weave.com/3mw/2016/12/2...t-to-press

UNC Greensboro - If you look closely at the bottom of Figure 1 above, you'll see a big red block that jumps out at your face in far left column for 2016-17. That's because until this year, Wes Miller and the Spartans rarely, if ever, showed extended full-court pressure. Now 13 games in to Wes Miller's 5th season at the helm, only West Virginia's full-court pressure has forced more turnovers on a per possession basis. In fact, the Spartans 22nd nationally ranked defensive TO rate is far and away the best Miller has posted since arriving in Greensboro. The Spartans' effective full-court disruption has translated into a dramatic improvement in their overall defensive efficiency, a figure that ranked in the nation's bottom-100 in 5 of the past 6 seasons.


Read and digest the last sentence as Wes is a Carolina guy along with Buzz, Lebo, McGrath etc. Carolina ball works at Carolina. Wes abandoned Carolina ball and look at the change.

I agree with the statement I put in bold from you there. I think that's the problem that a lot of the Carolina tree coaches either never "get" or it takes them a bit to realize. Miller must have taken a hard look at where his coaching career was heading if he didn't try something different and made a change. So far it's working for him. In order to play and succeed with Carolina ball (IMO), is to recruit Carolina caliber players. Going back to Shaka Smart's VCU team, playing a full-court defense has been a successful blueprint for success across several teams at the Mid-Major level. We had it. We went away from it. Time will tell if it was the right decision or not.
12-16-2017 03:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #3
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 03:48 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 03:28 PM)82hawk Wrote:  http://three-man-weave.com/3mw/2016/12/2...t-to-press

UNC Greensboro - If you look closely at the bottom of Figure 1 above, you'll see a big red block that jumps out at your face in far left column for 2016-17. That's because until this year, Wes Miller and the Spartans rarely, if ever, showed extended full-court pressure. Now 13 games in to Wes Miller's 5th season at the helm, only West Virginia's full-court pressure has forced more turnovers on a per possession basis. In fact, the Spartans 22nd nationally ranked defensive TO rate is far and away the best Miller has posted since arriving in Greensboro. The Spartans' effective full-court disruption has translated into a dramatic improvement in their overall defensive efficiency, a figure that ranked in the nation's bottom-100 in 5 of the past 6 seasons.


Read and digest the last sentence as Wes is a Carolina guy along with Buzz, Lebo, McGrath etc. Carolina ball works at Carolina. Wes abandoned Carolina ball and look at the change.

I agree with the statement I put in bold from you there. I think that's the problem that a lot of the Carolina tree coaches either never "get" or it takes them a bit to realize. Miller must have taken a hard look at where his coaching career was heading if he didn't try something different and made a change. So far it's working for him. In order to play and succeed with Carolina ball (IMO), is to recruit Carolina caliber players. Going back to Shaka Smart's VCU team, playing a full-court defense has been a successful blueprint for success across several teams at the Mid-Major level. We had it. We went away from it. Time will tell if it was the right decision or not.


Wes had an up close and personal look at the difference a press could make in just one year at UNCW. They are a mid major in the UNC system and played UNCW. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think "gee, that Keatts guy took the same roster Buzz(a Carolina guy) had and failed with, and turned them into contenders immediately.". Not surprisingly, Wes Miller had an immediate positive change as well.

Fortunately for us, Wes was at UNC while McGrath was coaching there. Hopefully they have a good enough relationship that McGrath, as a first year HC, could humble himself enough to ask Wes about the change and how it has helped.
12-16-2017 03:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
billthebighawksfan Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,492
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 13
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #4
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
UNCG looked to me like they played a 1-2-2 type of press and not the kind of all out type that UNCW did last year. They are efficient defensively and also on offense. They're rolling right now.
12-16-2017 05:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CG_Hawk06 Online
CWO of the Board
*

Posts: 8,386
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 258
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Virginia
Post: #5
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 05:55 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  UNCG looked to me like they played a 1-2-2 type of press and not the kind of all out type that UNCW did last year. They are efficient defensively and also on offense. They're rolling right now.

Same team that beat UNC in the "scrimmage" invitational UNC put on to benefit hurricane victims just before the season started. I have a funny feeling they're going to be putting their fair share of opponents on notice this year.
12-16-2017 06:36 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #6
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 05:55 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  UNCG looked to me like they played a 1-2-2 type of press and not the kind of all out type that UNCW did last year. They are efficient defensively and also on offense. They're rolling right now.

That's what it looked like to me. And if you look at the charts in the link, they actually pressed more often than UNCW. I have to admit, i'm envious of UNCG at this point. I really liked the "swagger" UNCW had when playing a press. You could see it in the players body language at UNCG against us and then NCSU. They may be the 3rd. best team in the state this year...<sigh>.
12-16-2017 07:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

Fletch 8 Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 112
Joined: Feb 2015
Reputation: 3
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #7
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
UNCG just beat NC State. Wow
12-16-2017 07:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CG_Hawk06 Online
CWO of the Board
*

Posts: 8,386
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 258
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Virginia
Post: #8
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 07:08 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 05:55 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  UNCG looked to me like they played a 1-2-2 type of press and not the kind of all out type that UNCW did last year. They are efficient defensively and also on offense. They're rolling right now.

That's what it looked like to me. And if you look at the charts in the link, they actually pressed more often than UNCW. I have to admit, i'm envious of UNCG at this point. I really liked the "swagger" UNCW had when playing a press. You could see it in the players body language at UNCG against us and then NCSU. They may be the 3rd. best team in the state this year...<sigh>.

They're currently 4-1 against in-state competition so far this year. Their only in-state loss so far was to Wake Forest. They're 3-0 vs the CAA with wins over us, Elon, and Delaware.
12-16-2017 07:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Seahawk2010 Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 277
Joined: Dec 2017
Reputation: 2
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #9
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Our press under Keatts was usually a token press. We guarded the inbounder and put some pressure on the first ball handler. We played absolutely no defense. Last year especially, we just simply had great offensive fire power to overcome our defensive deficiencies.
12-16-2017 08:44 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #10
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 08:44 PM)Seahawk2010 Wrote:  Our press under Keatts was usually a token press. We guarded the inbounder and put some pressure on the first ball handler. We played absolutely no defense. Last year especially, we just simply had great offensive fire power to overcome our defensive deficiencies.

Regardless of the type of press, take a peek at the article I linked. UNCW had the #9 most disruptive press in the country. one behind Louisville. I wouldn't call that "token". We caused a TO on 27% of opponents possessions. Now, we had a hard time in a half court defense, but that isn't news. I acknowledge that the press and creating TO's masked a weak man to man defense. I wish Keatts played some zone as well.
12-16-2017 08:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Seahawk2010 Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 277
Joined: Dec 2017
Reputation: 2
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #11
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Everyone always mentions VCU as the Mid Major model program with the “Havoc” style defense that fans want UNCW to become. It kinda worked, we won the CAA tourney back to back years and then fell short against ACC opponents. That style never got us past where we had been before.
12-16-2017 08:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

solohawks Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,541
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 239
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Wilmington, NC
Post: #12
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 08:50 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 08:44 PM)Seahawk2010 Wrote:  Our press under Keatts was usually a token press. We guarded the inbounder and put some pressure on the first ball handler. We played absolutely no defense. Last year especially, we just simply had great offensive fire power to overcome our defensive deficiencies.

Regardless of the type of press, take a peek at the article I linked. UNCW had the #9 most disruptive press in the country. one behind Louisville. I wouldn't call that "token". We caused a TO on 27% of opponents possessions. Now, we had a hard time in a half court defense, but that isn't news. I acknowledge that the press and creating TO's masked a weak man to man defense. I wish Keatts played some zone as well.

If Keatts would have thrown in some zone every now.and then we would have been even more formidable
12-16-2017 09:03 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CG_Hawk06 Online
CWO of the Board
*

Posts: 8,386
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 258
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Virginia
Post: #13
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 08:50 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 08:44 PM)Seahawk2010 Wrote:  Our press under Keatts was usually a token press. We guarded the inbounder and put some pressure on the first ball handler. We played absolutely no defense. Last year especially, we just simply had great offensive fire power to overcome our defensive deficiencies.

Regardless of the type of press, take a peek at the article I linked. UNCW had the #9 most disruptive press in the country. one behind Louisville. I wouldn't call that "token". We caused a TO on 27% of opponents possessions. Now, we had a hard time in a half court defense, but that isn't news. I acknowledge that the press and creating TO's masked a weak man to man defense. I wish Keatts played some zone as well.

That’s something I’ve found comical. People act like we haven’t had this “why can’t we try a little zone?” And “how about a mid-game adjustment?” even during the Keatts era.
12-16-2017 09:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
solohawks Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,541
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 239
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Wilmington, NC
Post: #14
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 09:39 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 08:50 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 08:44 PM)Seahawk2010 Wrote:  Our press under Keatts was usually a token press. We guarded the inbounder and put some pressure on the first ball handler. We played absolutely no defense. Last year especially, we just simply had great offensive fire power to overcome our defensive deficiencies.

Regardless of the type of press, take a peek at the article I linked. UNCW had the #9 most disruptive press in the country. one behind Louisville. I wouldn't call that "token". We caused a TO on 27% of opponents possessions. Now, we had a hard time in a half court defense, but that isn't news. I acknowledge that the press and creating TO's masked a weak man to man defense. I wish Keatts played some zone as well.

That’s something I’ve found comical. People act like we haven’t had this “why can’t we try a little zone?” And “how about a mid-game adjustment?” even during the Keatts era.
If you're going to be stubborn and not make adjustments you better win. Keatts did that McGrath not so much
12-16-2017 09:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
billthebighawksfan Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,492
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 13
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #15
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Experienced players make a difference. State didn't have their PG so they lost. When Talley went out the other day, we dropped off. Our freshman wasn't quite ready yet, he will learn. Taking care of the ball is the key at any level. When you go through it some, like Gary, he's going to get better. And, UNCW needed to have another guard helping out.

I don't see UNCW pressing this year. They don't have the numbers right now anyways. They will get better and the freshmen will get more PT too for the future.
12-16-2017 10:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CG_Hawk06 Online
CWO of the Board
*

Posts: 8,386
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 258
I Root For: UNCW
Location: Virginia
Post: #16
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
You’re right Bill. We don’t have the numbers to press as much anymore. And we lost a lot of athleticism in our lineup. I would like to see zone though.
12-17-2017 07:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #17
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Lol,

Keatts was only here three years. To hear anyone complain we didn't get back to "where we were" is comical. He threw together a hodge podge of players to provide quick success and it worked. Take a look at the incoming players that walked away when he left. We had a lot of size and athleticism on the way.
Havoc isn't built in a day(although he did pretty well), it's a commitment over time to certain types of players and coaches who will continue that style. UNCW took once small step in that direction over three years, had great success, then walked away. The best was yet to come but we abandoned ship for some unknown reason.

And before anyone presumes winning the CAA and even participating in the NCAA tournament is a given, take a look at William and Mary specifically and the CAA as a whole. We had more NCAA presence in the short span of Keatts than most of the teams in the CAA. Once you add in our prior success, our NCAA appearances blow away everyone else in the CAA. And, IMO, the sentiment expressed was the problem...AGAIN. We weren't happy with Brownell just GETTING to the NCAA, he needed to win. We weren't happy with Keatts just GETTING to the NCAA, he needed to win. And in both cases, we switched direction from a successful model hoping for next level success. The Brownell switch resulted in a decade of failure. We'll see where the Keatts switch winds up. I'm not optimistic at the moment.
12-17-2017 07:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #18
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-16-2017 10:52 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Experienced players make a difference. State didn't have their PG so they lost. When Talley went out the other day, we dropped off. Our freshman wasn't quite ready yet, he will learn. Taking care of the ball is the key at any level. When you go through it some, like Gary, he's going to get better. And, UNCW needed to have another guard helping out.

I don't see UNCW pressing this year. They don't have the numbers right now anyways. They will get better and the freshmen will get more PT too for the future.

We could still institute full court pressure to run clock and disrupt the flow of an opponent, even if it wasn't all out Havoc style pressure. The 1-2-2 UNCG played was more of a way to start defending after a made basket. And, the 1-2-2 flowed nicely into zone once the opponent passed half court. I would argue we need it even more because our numbers are low to even have a shot of winning. Even if you're not defending full court, you have to get back fast to prevent fast breaks which takes just as much effort. And, it gets your bigs in position to defend and prevents drives to the basket which draws fouls. A LOT of the drives on us are because we are waiting to defend at half court. Guards are surveying the landscape and can see a path to the bucket by simply making a good move on our guards. Once they beat one guard, we're in a bad spot and either give up the bucket or foul.

I would also argue that NCSU lost because UNCG had a better roster to press and run than NCSU. They also had a full year and a half of experience running their press successfully. NCSU has a bunch of big slow men who play in the post. Cacok would have been devastating on the NCSU squad against UNCG.
12-17-2017 07:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bricksnivy Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,630
Joined: Jan 2015
Reputation: 14
I Root For: UNCW
Location:
Post: #19
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
Did anyone watch the halftime show during the NCSU/UNCG game? They had an ACC coaches panel with Pastner, Padgett, Brey, Larranaga, Buzz Williams and Brownell, and they asked each of them about their first year as a head coach. Brey had some great insight for Padgett, talked about discovering yourself and your own style and how difficult it is to delegate your first season. It was a good discussion, and I couldn't help but think of those that have already written off McGrath as one term HC failure. Buzz also talked about defining success and validation differently than the fans.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2017 09:04 AM by bricksnivy.)
12-17-2017 08:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
82hawk Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,431
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 39
I Root For: UN CW
Location:
Post: #20
RE: To press or not to press- good article which discusses UNCG and their recent change
(12-17-2017 08:56 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  Did anyone watch the halftime show during the NCSU/UNCG game? They had an ACC coaches panel with Pastner, Padgett, Brey, Larranaga, Buzz Williams and Brownell, and they asked each of them about their first year as a head coach. Brey had some great insight for Padgett, talked about discovering yourself and your own style and how difficult it is to delegate your first season. It was a good discussion, and I couldn't help but think of those that have already written off McGrath as one term HC failure. Buzz also talked about defining success and validation differently than the fans.


Not writing off McGrath at all. I am facing reality though. McGrath is almost starting from scratch as a first time head coach, at a school without the resources of a UNC, and implementing a system he doesn't have the players for. That's a tough row to hoe. I have a greater issue with the decision by UNCW to switch gears than I do with McGrath. He may succeed, but he wasn't set up to succeed. Climbing out of a hole in your first year, following three years of record breaking success is not easy.
12-17-2017 09:29 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2018 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2018 MyBB Group.