(12-13-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

Christianity is not trying to kill me. Nor is it the topic of this thread. There is enough outrage to go around to be able to concentrate talking about one at the exclusion of the other.

How can we tell what a True Muslim looks like, versus an Islamist terrorist? One quotes the Koran, the other quotes the Koran. One prays, the other pray. Their women cover their heads, and their women cover their heads. So on and so forth.

From this angle, everyone who claims to be a True Muslim looks and acts the same right up until the day the terrorists break cover and slaughter everyone at the Christmas party, or everyone at the dance club, or set off bombs at the marathon.

At that point, it does no good to say: “Oh, well, they weren’t TRUE Muslims” if we can’t tell them apart before the killing starts.

(12-13-2017 01:49 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

Christianity is not trying to kill me. Nor is it the topic of this thread. There is enough outrage to go around to be able to concentrate talking about one at the exclusion of the other.

How can we tell what a True Muslim looks like, versus an Islamist terrorist? One quotes the Koran, the other quotes the Koran. One prays, the other pray. Their women cover their heads, and their women cover their heads. So on and so forth.

From this angle, everyone who claims to be a True Muslim looks and acts the same right up until the day the terrorists break cover and slaughter everyone at the Christmas party, or everyone at the dance club, or set off bombs at the marathon.

At that point, it does no good to say: “Oh, well, they weren’t TRUE Muslims” if we can’t tell them apart before the killing starts.

While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

They are just like every other religion in that they preach a way to live that isn't always followed even by their most "loyal" followers.

(12-13-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:11 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That being said, since then, BOTH have been frequently very concerned with political matters and BOTH have been frequently invoked by their adherents to justify violence and naked political grabs.

Can you point out some of these 'frequent' justifications of violence by Christians? That's not really a challenge because I suspect you know what I'm getting at.

We're talking about the 21st century... not the 17th or earlier. Comparing what happened last week to what happened 30 or 75 or 300 years ago isn't equal.

Even at the height of the abortion protests, comparing the violence there to what we've seen every year for the past 20+ is not remotely close.

It's this continued false equivalency that keeps being repeated, especially by 'anti-religion' people that deflects from the message.

I'm perfectly fine with applying the same rules to all religions... but the CURRENT issue that needs to be addressed GLOBALLY is radical Islam. Deflecting from this fact only diffuses the issue and thus it's strength.

Northern Ireland, Lords Resistance Army, Samuel Doe and the others in Liberia, Eric Rudolph, the Klan uses Christianity to justify its actions, the National Liberation Group of Tripura/India, Maronite militias in Lebanon, Charles Barbee, Robert Berry, Jay Merelle, Paul Hill, Michael Griffin, Scott Roeder, James Kopp.....I could go on for days.

For me, the CURRENT issue is the violence and the advocacy of it, regardless of who does it. Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

That is a lot of whataboutism. None of those groups are a threat to the USA. Islamic terrorism is a threat and it is very real.

(12-13-2017 01:49 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

Christianity is not trying to kill me. Nor is it the topic of this thread. There is enough outrage to go around to be able to concentrate talking about one at the exclusion of the other.

How can we tell what a True Muslim looks like, versus an Islamist terrorist? One quotes the Koran, the other quotes the Koran. One prays, the other pray. Their women cover their heads, and their women cover their heads. So on and so forth.

From this angle, everyone who claims to be a True Muslim looks and acts the same right up until the day the terrorists break cover and slaughter everyone at the Christmas party, or everyone at the dance club, or set off bombs at the marathon.

At that point, it does no good to say: “Oh, well, they weren’t TRUE Muslims” if we can’t tell them apart before the killing starts.

Religion in general appears to be the topic in the thread title.

He asked about a specific religion. So I gave some examples about two specific religions.

Islam is more violent than any other major religion and has historically killed more people than the nazis or stalin. And it's not even close. Period.

Once they get to a certain % of the population not good. Some of these Euro countries are on course to be 20% Muslim not too far from now.

(12-13-2017 02:11 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Islam is more violent than any other major religion and has historically killed more people than the nazis or stalin. And it's not even close. Period.

How are you counting the deaths?

Are you including all the deaths from the European drives to 'convert' the masses in the Americas and Asia?

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

(12-13-2017 02:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:11 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Islam is more violent than any other major religion and has historically killed more people than the nazis or stalin. And it's not even close. Period.

How are you counting the deaths?

Are you including all the deaths from the European drives to 'convert' the masses in the Americas and Asia?

Can we keep the topic aligned with the here and now, not 1507 or 1682.

(12-13-2017 01:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  See, by throwing the violence of Abdul out of the group, your are arbitrarily limiting the pool of True Muslims to “people who don’t do such a thing” which makes your conclusion self-fulfilling.

This... see below

(12-13-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Northern Ireland, Lords Resistance Army, Samuel Doe and the others in Liberia, Eric Rudolph, the Klan uses Christianity to justify its actions, the National Liberation Group of Tripura/India, Maronite militias in Lebanon, Charles Barbee, Robert Berry, Jay Merelle, Paul Hill, Michael Griffin, Scott Roeder, James Kopp.....I could go on for days.

For me, the CURRENT issue is the violence and the advocacy of it, regardless of who does it. Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

When was the last Northers Ireland attack and what civilians did it target and kill? Heck, when was the last mass Klan killing?

How many people have those groups killed in say the last 20 years? What was their largest attack?

Samuel Doe died in 1990.
There are Islamic leaders like those today.
Barbee Barry and Merelle was 1996. How many did they kill?
Kopp was 1998
So was Eric Rudolph....
and I don't recall any group publicly taking credit for those attacks, do you?

Yes, you can go on for days, but the number of those who have taken place in the 21st century pales by comparison. I can name more than that for Islam from December 11, 2017 alone. Not 2017.... Not Dec 2017.... Dec. 11, 2017.

You're actually proving my point.

YES there are 'crazy's' who invoke/hijack a religion.... but the degree and frequency and violence is completely incomparable.

Unibomber (an anti-religious nut) built 16 bombs, and if more hadn't failed, he would have killed vastly more than the 3 he killed... which was STILL more than Eric Rudolph killed.

So can we now say that 'anti-religious' people are a threat that can't be ignored?

There are more Christians that Muslims in the world still, but not by many.... so if the religions were comparable, the numbers should be comparable.

They're not.



If it's the CURRENT issue you want to talk about, then why do you bring up events that are 20+ years old?

A deflection from your viewpoint? It's a CORRECTION of your viewpoint.

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

(12-13-2017 03:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

No we aren't the title of the thread just says "specific religion"

(12-13-2017 03:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

No we aren't the title of the thread just says "specific religion"

Post a link that verifies christian perp monthly mass shootings.

(12-13-2017 03:39 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

No we aren't the title of the thread just says "specific religion"

Post a link that verifies christian perp monthly mass shootings.

You honestly need a link for that? Haven't you been watching the news?

(12-13-2017 03:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:39 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

No we aren't the title of the thread just says "specific religion"

Post a link that verifies christian perp monthly mass shootings.

You honestly need a link for that? Haven't you been watching the news?

You can't link up the claim? If it is in the news should be easy to do?

(12-13-2017 03:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:39 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Almost none. Moot point, we are talking muslim immigration/terrorism.

No we aren't the title of the thread just says "specific religion"

Post a link that verifies christian perp monthly mass shootings.

You honestly need a link for that? Haven't you been watching the news?

I can think of many more by non - religious folks or atheists than Christians. And I'm agnostic.

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Whataboutism on display again...even though your monthly shooting claim is bogus.

(12-13-2017 09:35 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Whataboutism on display again...even though your monthly shooting claim is bogus.

Actually, the thread title doesn't specify Islam only...so I'm not sure you can call it whataboutism.

(12-13-2017 11:01 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:35 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 03:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 02:20 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  While what you say may be true, that still is no reason to believe that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

The”religion of peace” has been a little bit hard on a lot of people. Dead people.

For 90-odd percent of its adherents, it may well be a "religion of peace." But they seem to have other attitudes that bear some examination.

People within the religion may not be peaceful but that can be said ever everyone within any religion.

How many people in this country claim to be Christian, which is to say they believe Jesus is our savior, and yet commit mass shootings almost monthly.

Whataboutism on display again...even though your monthly shooting claim is bogus.

Actually, the thread title doesn't specify Islam only...so I'm not sure you can call it whataboutism.

The context of this exchange was specifically about Islam. Fit clearly used whataboutism within the context of this exchange.