(12-12-2017 11:16 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 07:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 01:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Alabama will elect somebody bad tomorrow.

Exactly.


Either way, somebody bad wins.

Do you guys not recognize the tone-deafness of describing a guy who has said America was last great during slavery, among many other racist and bigoted things and the guy who prosecuted the klansmen who murdered four children in a church as both "bad"? Or a man accused of molesting children vs. the prosecutor of an abortion clinic bomber?

To illiniowl's point, I have no problem with doing what Shelby did - writing in a different Republican - as opposed to actively voting for or supporting Jones.

I *do* have an issue with the implication that Jones is just as bad as a racist child molester simply because he's a Democrat.

Exactly. As I said, this is not the case of the lesser evil, this is the case of evil vs a Democrat.

I had a bunch of comments, but I'll just leave it at this: Some pretty jaw dropping defenses of Roy Moore in this Frank Luntz focus group...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLMAoejW-A

I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.

Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.

I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

(12-12-2017 12:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.

Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.

I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

I guess they see a difference between being "accused" (YOUR WORD) and somebody that they KNOW will support the killing of babies (as they see it).

The whole shebang of people being accused and then being forced to resign/quit/go away just on the basis of the accusation bothers me. We have a legal system in place, but we seem to gone directly from accusation to punishment.

Not saying Moore is innocent, but in a court he might well be "not guilty". really, all we have is a he said, she said 38 years old and a yearbook signature that has been tampered with.

In the meantime, Jones is a Democrat and seems to be run of the mill. For people for whom the litmus test is abortion (not me), that's damming.

(12-12-2017 12:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.
Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.
I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

I think Auburn fans would be happy to see him go.

(12-12-2017 12:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.

Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.

I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

I guess they see a difference between being "accused" (YOUR WORD) and somebody that they KNOW will support the killing of babies (as they see it).

The whole shebang of people being accused and then being forced to resign/quit/go away just on the basis of the accusation bothers me. We have a legal system in place, but we seem to gone directly from accusation to punishment.

Not saying Moore is innocent, but in a court he might well be "not guilty". really, all we have is a he said, she said 38 years old and a yearbook signature that has been tampered with.

In the meantime, Jones is a Democrat and seems to be run of the mill. For people for whom the litmus test is abortion (not me), that's damming.

I haven't seen anything about his signature having been tampered. I have seen that she added information to the note that was written.

I guess everyone who accused Moore of bigotry has to recant now that his wife has informed us that "one of our attorneys is a Jew"...

(12-12-2017 01:47 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  I guess everyone who accused Moore of bigotry has to recant now that his wife has informed us that "one of our attorneys is a Jew"...

Someone on Twitter commented that it was just like watching a Mel Brooks sketch.

(12-12-2017 11:16 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Do you guys not recognize the tone-deafness of describing a guy who has said America was last great during slavery, among many other racist and bigoted things and the guy who prosecuted the klansmen who murdered four children in a church as both "bad"? Or a man accused of molesting children vs. the prosecutor of an abortion clinic bomber?
To illiniowl's point, I have no problem with doing what Shelby did - writing in a different Republican - as opposed to actively voting for or supporting Jones.

Who has said he was bad because he prosecuted klansmen? Exactly nobody, right.

That's not why people think he's bad. The majority of Alabamians are very much opposed to the Klan. I grew up there, and the only person that I ever heard say anything even halfway positive about the Klan was my Jewish (seriously) uncle. Prosecuting the Klan is not going to strike many Alabamians as bad. Supporting full-term abortions is going to strike 65% of them as bad. And Jones has been very equivocal in his comments about abortion. I'm pro-choice, but with limits. I could not vote for someone who favors abortion all the way to full term. Period.

That's the real problem that I see, from afar at any rate, about Jones. He's pretty much the stealth candidate. His whole campaign has revolved around portraying Moore as the devil reincarnated (which he may be). Aside from non-specific platitudes, he hasn't offered much about where he stands. As I've said, it's not my circus, not my monkeys, but if it were the Jones people have convinced me not to vote for Moore, and the Moore people have convinced me not to vote for Jones. So I'd be more inclined to do something like what Shelby did, although in my case it would be the libertarian. I would guess that Shelby has chosen to take the high road after some private polling data showed that Moore had it won. With 65% of the population opposed to abortion, I think it would be hard for a pro-choice candidate to beat Moore if we have videos of him having sex with a 12 year old.

The Alabama republican party has been skating on very thin ice, legally and otherwise, for quite some time. If you don't know the details, they are pretty easily available on the Web. This looks like where it finally caught up with them. They pretty much win elections on the abortion issue, but they haven't really done much worthwhile beyond that. There are many things that they could do, consistent with their philosophy, to help the poor and minorities. Jack Kemp wrote a book or two about that. If they could make any meaningful inroads into the black vote, they would be unbeatable. But for now, that is not their MO. Maybe if they lose this one, they will wise up going forward. Then again, maybe not.

Quote:I *do* have an issue with the implication that Jones is just as bad as a racist child molester simply because he's a Democrat.

"Just as bad" is not the same as "too bad to get my vote." I'm not going to vote for anyone unless I believe that he or she would represent me in a way that I could approve. I don't feel that way about Moore or Jones. Thankfully, not my circus, not my monkeys.

(12-12-2017 02:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 01:47 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  I guess everyone who accused Moore of bigotry has to recant now that his wife has informed us that "one of our attorneys is a Jew"...

Someone on Twitter commented that it was just like watching a Mel Brooks sketch.

The entire Alabama republican party has been like watching Monty Python for about a decade.

They win elections because 65% of the population opposes abortion (per one poll, 53% believe the world was created in 7 days of 24 hours each) and they beat that one issue to death. But they don't really accomplish much else. They certainly are nowhere near as pro-business as would be best for the economic health of the state. And the corruption almost makes Chicago look clean. Almost, don't get carried away there.

(12-12-2017 01:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.

Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.

I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

I guess they see a difference between being "accused" (YOUR WORD) and somebody that they KNOW will support the killing of babies (as they see it).

The whole shebang of people being accused and then being forced to resign/quit/go away just on the basis of the accusation bothers me. We have a legal system in place, but we seem to gone directly from accusation to punishment.

Not saying Moore is innocent, but in a court he might well be "not guilty". really, all we have is a he said, she said 38 years old and a yearbook signature that has been tampered with.

In the meantime, Jones is a Democrat and seems to be run of the mill. For people for whom the litmus test is abortion (not me), that's damming.

I haven't seen anything about his signature having been tampered. I have seen that she added information to the note that was written.

Which would not be a problem if they had disclosed that in the first place.

So other than a 38 year old "he said, she said", what is the evidence going to be to lead a jury to say unanimously "guilty"? Tried in the press is one thing, tried in a court another.

Are you good with eliminating all the middle steps between accusation and punishment? I am not. That applies to the whole current storm of sexual allegations, not just Moore.

To quote a famous Alabamian, this is going to be "like a box of chocolates." Who knows what we are going to get?

(12-12-2017 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 01:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't understand how people that purport to be religious can vote for someone who has been accused of preying on underage girls. But whatever they have to do to continue the cognitive dissonance in their heads that was formed last fall.

Doug Jones doesn't really seem qualified to hold the position of senator, but then again, most of the US Senators have few meaningful qualifications other than their ability to kiss the as$es of rich people.

I think the solution that *most* Alabamans (other than Auburn fans) can rally behind is none other than...

I guess they see a difference between being "accused" (YOUR WORD) and somebody that they KNOW will support the killing of babies (as they see it).

The whole shebang of people being accused and then being forced to resign/quit/go away just on the basis of the accusation bothers me. We have a legal system in place, but we seem to gone directly from accusation to punishment.

Not saying Moore is innocent, but in a court he might well be "not guilty". really, all we have is a he said, she said 38 years old and a yearbook signature that has been tampered with.

In the meantime, Jones is a Democrat and seems to be run of the mill. For people for whom the litmus test is abortion (not me), that's damming.

I haven't seen anything about his signature having been tampered. I have seen that she added information to the note that was written.

Which would not be a problem if they had disclosed that in the first place.

So other than a 38 year old "he said, she said", what is the evidence going to be to lead a jury to say unanimously "guilty"? Tried in the press is one thing, tried in a court another.

Are you good with eliminating all the middle steps between accusation and punishment? I am not. That applies to the whole current storm of sexual allegations, not just Moore.

Not in a court of law, but in the court of public opinion and in our elected officials, I am more willing. If there are enough credible accusations about our elected officials, they should step down, a la Franken, Conyers, Weinstein, etc.

Society in the past few years has decided to evolve and no longer let things slide that we previously did (see: Clinton, Bill). With Moore the WashPo reporting should have been more than enough to cause him to step down. It was heavily researched, backed up, and withstood the intentionally false attack of Project Veritus.

I do not look to politicians to be our morale saviors (I could care less if they have an affair with an off-age, consenting adult), but I expect for them to not be sexual predators. By keeping or electing these people to office, we are implicitly condoning said activities. The only way I think that someone should be spared the flame is if they actively acknowledge their misdeeds, atone for their sins, potentially suffer legal consequences, and attempt to do something positive in that area.

And to your first comment about the note - your misstatement about the yearbook signature being tampered is still false. The signature is Moore's, and that distinction is important. All that was done was a few notes were added at some point. That is exactly why Fox News had to alter their headline saying that the note had been forged to saying that she wrote part of the note. There is absolutely no problem - she added a note to the yearbook when she was giving an interview to ABC. If evidence comes out that the other portion of the note appears altered, then call it problem. Until then, it's only a problem because Fox News has an agenda and tried to overplay their hand.

(12-12-2017 05:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  To quote a famous Alabamian, this is going to be "like a box of chocolates." Who knows what we are going to get?

Nothing good.

Moore spokesman left literally speechless when told you don't have to swear on a Christian bible to hold office.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/t...709PMStory

(12-12-2017 07:42 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Moore spokesman left literally speechless when told you don't have to swear on a Christian bible to hold office.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/t...709PMStory

I am SHOCKED, shocked, I tell you, that Roy Moore's spokesman is not well versed on these kind of legal matters.

After all, he is representing someone who believes Muslim's can't serve in Congress (see video) and ordered judges to defy Supreme Court decisions.

Pretty close race it appears. Could be a late night. It's pretty remarkable the race is even this close but the black turnout was even higher today than for Obama's two presidential races I believe.

Jones wins (again?).

Doug Jones has a tremendous opportunity to accomplish something worthwhile by being the kind of moderate centrist he promised to be during the campaign. If he does, he will represent the people of Alabama well. But I'm quite certain that Chucky Schumer will be doing everything he can to prevent that. Who will win? Time will tell.

(12-12-2017 11:29 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Doug Jones has a tremendous opportunity to accomplish something worthwhile by being the kind of moderate centrist he promised to be during the campaign. If he does, he will represent the people of Alabama well. But I'm quite certain that Chucky Schumer will be doing everything he can to prevent that. Who will win? Time will tell.

I’m confused - Jones pledged to be a centrist? Weren’t we just earlier saying he was anti-choice everything and he was a foregone puppet of Schumer?

If he was openly pledging to be a centrist, I don’t understand how anyone on here could have really felt they couldn’t have voted for him because of his views, b/c a centrist Dem will align with a centrist Rep on a lot of issues.