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It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #61
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 08:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Umm, the unknowns are what make March Madness what it is, you just don't want too many of them or at least want them gone by the Elite 8, if not by the Sweet 16. No one is tuning in to watch Clemson versus Arizona State in the 7-10 or in a 12-13 surprise.

I think you are giving the "unknowns" way too much credit for the success of the NCAAT. When there is a choice between #1 Duke vs #16 Unknown U in the first round or Clemson vs Arizona State in the 7-10, most people are watching the latter. When, occasionally, a high seed isn't blowing out their unknown opponent, fans will use their remote to check in on that game from time to time.

The "real" NCAAT starts at the round of 32. And no school is moving up to FBS because of what it may or may not do for its NCAAT chances.

You really can't be serious. People obviously tune in to watch the bigger schools more, the ratings bear that out but they'll watch a 1/16 matchup if 16 is pushing 1.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 09:08 AM by _C2_.)
12-12-2017 09:08 AM
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TheOriginalBigApp Offline
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Post: #62
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
according to davidst, Lyme Academy College of Fine Arts and Platt College of San Diego have already decided they're moving up. So JMU and NDSU will have to wait.
12-12-2017 09:28 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #63
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 09:08 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 08:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Umm, the unknowns are what make March Madness what it is, you just don't want too many of them or at least want them gone by the Elite 8, if not by the Sweet 16. No one is tuning in to watch Clemson versus Arizona State in the 7-10 or in a 12-13 surprise.

I think you are giving the "unknowns" way too much credit for the success of the NCAAT. When there is a choice between #1 Duke vs #16 Unknown U in the first round or Clemson vs Arizona State in the 7-10, most people are watching the latter. When, occasionally, a high seed isn't blowing out their unknown opponent, fans will use their remote to check in on that game from time to time.

The "real" NCAAT starts at the round of 32. And no school is moving up to FBS because of what it may or may not do for its NCAAT chances.

You really can't be serious. People obviously tune in to watch the bigger schools more, the ratings bear that out but they'll watch a 1/16 matchup if 16 is pushing 1.

Of course I'm being serious. And I said exactly what you said: people will watch #16 if they are pushing #1. But only for as long as that is the case, and sometimes only for short periods. When #1 pulls away, fans will go back to watching Clemson-Arizona State.

The NCAAT would still be just as interesting if those schools weren't in it.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 12:21 PM by ken d.)
12-12-2017 09:53 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.

(12-11-2017 07:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:41 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:17 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  This may be the dumbest thread of all time. ...

There is no benefit, financially for any of the four schools mentioned to move up. Costs will increase dramatically while revenues stagnate. All for a shot at playing in the Potato Bowl?

All four administrations will sit back and wait things out. None are going to sign up for an FBS move right now, there are just too many question marks as to the future of G5.

Tell me why then have 10 schools moved up in ten years but only one has tentatively moved down?

FCS is expensive for what one gets out of it. FBS is the less costly choice if facilities are available and a coherent conference for the school is available. There are innumerable studies that show FBS is a better choice, just for national advertising and awareness, but the same posters choose to stick their heads in the sand.

And most of those move ups have talked about how they are struggling financially, and, all are located in populated areas. South Dakota and North Dakota are both pretty isolated.

JMU could move, so could Sam Houston. Both are in populated areas and both could have moved years ago. But not under current circumstances. TV money is drying up. National advertising/exposure? Seriously? 1.1 million watched the Potato Bowl last year. Almost 2 million watched the NDSU v SDSU playoff QUARTERFINAL last year. If NDSU v SDSU happens in Frisco this year expect close to 3 million to watch the game. Very much on par with mid-level bowls.

I'll take the exposure NDSU, SDSU get over the exposure the MAC, CUSA or SBC get playing weeknights. Unless you are at the top of the AAC or MWC, you are not getting a lot of exposure playing G5 football.

Get used to UND playing FCS for a while. Maybe, if UND builds stronger program you can begin to compete with the other Dakota schools. The day may come when NDSU and SDSU move up to another level, as of right now, neither are going anywhere. And neither is UND.

You said my thread is dumb then suggest that Sam could move up. With rare exception, like Lamar, the Southland schools could not be FBS and a few are barely D-I.

Sam is not in a highly populated area, it's close to a highly populated area but they get little run around here. The Southland gets coverage and fanfare collectively. If Houston isn't spoken for by the Big 12 or A&M, it's spoken for by Houston or even the SWAC at least as much as the Southland/Sam. Even Rice would garner more attention if they ever put a team together worth watching.

Sam would never be higher than a Sun Belt level school, which means they would only rarely be nationally ranked and grab minimal headlines. It would not be wise for them to move up unless the Southland as a whole moved up. The Dakotas and DSU's would fare better because they command attention in their entire state and NDSU has an added bonus of almost being in Minnesota. They don't have to fight major schools for headlines nearly as much as JMU, Southland schools or even Houston.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 09:58 AM by jacksfan29.)
12-12-2017 09:57 AM
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #65
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 07:03 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:57 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 05:24 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 03:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  This may be the dumbest thread of all time. NDSU has had a great run of success and it will likely continue though there were knocked off last year and, both South Dakota State (who have already beaten them this year) and JMU have shots at beating the Bison in the championship game.

JMU have only been solid the last two years and almost got knocked out of this years playoffs by Weber State. South Dakota State have had a good run the past 7 years, but prior to moving up SDSU were a basketball school with average FB.

There is no benefit, financially for any of the four schools mentioned to move up. Costs will increase dramatically while revenues stagnate. All for a shot at playing in the Potato Bowl?

All four administrations will sit back and wait things out. None are going to sign up for an FBS move right now, there are just too many question marks as to the future of G5.


Summit League is just a one bid league for men's basketball. When both NDSU and SDSU have a winning record? They both deserve to be in the 68 field team. They should look at going to the MWC that have a multi bid conference. Both schools will get their RPIs up, and they would earn more money that way. Both schools could actually get a deal with ESPN to hold home games like Boise State. They are hot schools on the rise, and they get more exposure than they do right now.

NCAA men's tourney bids for the MW in the last 5 years:

2013 - 5
2014 - 2
2015 - 3
2016 - 1
2017 - 1

The MW lost in the first round in both of the last 2 years. At-large bids are drying up outside of the P5 + Big East. Last year a grand total of 4 teams not from those 6 conferences got at-large bids and they were seeded 6, 7, 7, and 10. This is why I don't watch the tourney anymore. Changing conferences will not help get tourney bids.

Yup. P5+BE are flexing their financial muscles here...of course CBS & Turner didn't shell $10.8B for a bunch of unknowns to eat up air time either. Need to maximize those ad dollars.


MWC are not unknown. You have UNLV, New Mexico and Colorado State that have gone to the tournaments before. Boise State is on the rise and San Diego State are flexing their muscles lately. It did hurt losing BYU, but hey did gain with Boise State. As for the P5 and Big East? Some of those teams do not deserve to be in the 68 field as they usually go out in the first 2 rounds. (cough, oklahoma lost to North dakota State, cough)

The MW has known schools but it's a FACT that it has become a 1-bid league (look above). Last year the 4 at-large not from the P5+BE were from The American, A10 (2), and WCC. What teams deserve to make the tourney is not the same as what teams the committee selects to the tourney.
12-12-2017 11:58 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #66
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 09:57 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.
What exactly are those priorities? Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 12:50 PM by NoDak.)
12-12-2017 12:46 PM
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AppManDG Offline
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Post: #67
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
The only way JMU moves up is IF there is a restructuring of the Sunbelt & CUSA and they can jump into a eastern conference.

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12-12-2017 12:53 PM
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Post: #68
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 12:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
What exactly are those priorities?
Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.

Not going broke chasing an FBS pipe dream?
12-12-2017 12:57 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #69
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 12:57 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
What exactly are those priorities?
Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.

Not going broke chasing an FBS pipe dream?

As said before, FCS is more costly for some because it doesn't have the revenue potential with big payout games and CFP payments. But some here still keep posting crap.
12-12-2017 01:04 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #70
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 01:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:57 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
What exactly are those priorities?
Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.

Not going broke chasing an FBS pipe dream?

As said before, FCS is more costly for some because it doesn't have the revenue potential with big payout games and CFP payments. But some here still keep posting crap.

FCS is a worse proposition on an annual basis. But the FBS upgrade process has large capital expenditures, with no assurance that you're getting a slice of the CFP pie at the end of the day. You're spending a lot of money up front (stadium upgrades/replacement, adding new sports) that may or may not pay off at the end of the day.
12-12-2017 01:47 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 12:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 09:57 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.
What exactly are those priorities? Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.

Why the hell would we add a niche sport so few care about? We already have wrestling and it isn't going away. Our "barn", which is still nicer then that HS gym UND plays in, needs updating. We built a big fancy IPF, maybe you have heard? Frost still contains an indoor track and workout area. When done, it will be a fantastic venue. SDSU have spent a lot of money updating our facilities. We are not going to spend a fortune moving up only to have the money pulled out from under us when the P5 take a larger share of CFP money.

Your FBS pipe dream is not going to happen right now. It may in the future, it will not happen in the next 5, likely 10 years. UND need to get its house in order. Your athletic department is a joke and at the bottom of the four "Dakota" schools. Even USD have surpassed UND. Your dream is dying off. No announcement is coming after SDSU and NDSU are done playing FB. No announcement is coming on 4/20/18. It is not going to happen.
12-12-2017 03:07 PM
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Post: #72
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 08:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Umm, the unknowns are what make March Madness what it is, you just don't want too many of them or at least want them gone by the Elite 8, if not by the Sweet 16. No one is tuning in to watch Clemson versus Arizona State in the 7-10 or in a 12-13 surprise.

I think you are giving the "unknowns" way too much credit for the success of the NCAAT. When there is a choice between #1 Duke vs #16 Unknown U in the first round or Clemson vs Arizona State in the 7-10, most people are watching the latter. When, occasionally, a high seed isn't blowing out their unknown opponent, fans will use their remote to check in on that game from time to time..

Everyone remembers George Mason, Butler, Wichita, and Virginia Commonwealth’s runs. Or the monster 1st round upsets replayed in commercials every year. Few remember Syracuse or South Carolina’s runs as a low seed.
12-12-2017 03:51 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #73
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 03:07 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 12:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 09:57 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.
What exactly are those priorities? Adding hockey so XDSU fans can ***** and moan more.

SDSU has said they are remodeling their basketball barn. NDSU has done that, but there is still complaining. NDSU needs more Title IX sports now. Those arent major in my book.

Why the hell would we add a niche sport so few care about? We already have wrestling and it isn't going away. Our "barn", which is still nicer then that HS gym UND plays in, needs updating. We built a big fancy IPF, maybe you have heard? Frost still contains an indoor track and workout area. When done, it will be a fantastic venue. SDSU have spent a lot of money updating our facilities. We are not going to spend a fortune moving up only to have the money pulled out from under us when the P5 take a larger share of CFP money.

Your FBS pipe dream is not going to happen right now. It may in the future, it will not happen in the next 5, likely 10 years. UND need to get its house in order. Your athletic department is a joke and at the bottom of the four "Dakota" schools. Even USD have surpassed UND. Your dream is dying off. No announcement is coming after SDSU and NDSU are done playing FB. No announcement is coming on 4/20/18. It is not going to happen.

Yeah, the USHL team in Sioux Falls draws much better than the Rabbit teams, and USHL teams in Fargo and Sioux Falls are feeder systems for our nationally ranked "niche" sport that draws 250 k a year. You can't comprehend how big something is as you always think small. And your opinion reveals that.
12-12-2017 05:09 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #74
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
The NCAA and the P5 and G5 needs to avoid any anti-trust cases that can be brought against them from lawmakers in states that do not have a school in FBS.
12-12-2017 05:22 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #75
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 09:57 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.

I'm an hour away from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. Sam has a following but no bigger following than TSU or Prairie View. And they're probably smaller because SWAC fanbases tend to be rabid. If they moved up, they'd probably still struggle to get headlines and fans, there'should only so many to go around. Houston's a city of 2.3 million, yet UH can't regularly sell out games and Rice doesn't exist to the average Houston sports fan.

They're just a random Texas schools that if not for the word "state," people wouldn't know they were public. Maybe if they were called Texas State it may work but not as is. They fit the Southland just fine.

And again on the Dakota schools, their states may be small but they are close to other states, especially Minnesota for NDSU.
12-12-2017 05:27 PM
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Post: #76
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
For the record, Houston has a metro of over 5M. There is projected to be 5M in the I-45 corridor from Spring up through Huntsville by 2050. The growth is coming that led SWT's growth into Texas State over the past two decades.

But I live near Sam and there is practically zero interest in the program outside of Huntsville city limits. They need to be better positioning for the growth they are about to experience. They are by no means prepared for stepping up any time soon from a facilities or fanbase perspective. That should be their focus today but I'm not seeing it. FCS football is a pretty big notch below HS football on the collective minds of most Texans.

Back to JMU and NDSU. The folks in Fargo have made their case but there isn't a place to land. JMU is strapped with small-minded leadership that seems to believe that the CAA is a step above any FBS leagues for which they are suitable to aspire. I feel bad for the Dukes fans. That's a terrible predicament.
12-13-2017 11:49 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #77
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-13-2017 11:49 AM)SlyFox Wrote:  For the record, Houston has a metro of over 5M. There is projected to be 5M in the I-45 corridor from Spring up through Huntsville by 2050. The growth is coming that led SWT's growth into Texas State over the past two decades.

But I live near Sam and there is practically zero interest in the program outside of Huntsville city limits. They need to be better positioning for the growth they are about to experience. They are by no means prepared for stepping up any time soon from a facilities or fanbase perspective. That should be their focus today but I'm not seeing it. FCS football is a pretty big notch below HS football on the collective minds of most Texans.

Back to JMU and NDSU. The folks in Fargo have made their case but there isn't a place to land. JMU is strapped with small-minded leadership that seems to believe that the CAA is a step above any FBS leagues for which they are suitable to aspire. I feel bad for the Dukes fans. That's a terrible predicament.

This laid out rather well why Sam Houston St needs to be FBS to have its football and school taken seriously.

NDSU has little chance of a newer stadium. Fargo built the FargoDome with sales tax revenue, and with Fargo building a billion dollar diversion system around the city, there are in absolutely no mood to finance a NDSU plaything again. Any new stadium or arena in North Dakota has to be by donors, not taxpayers.
12-13-2017 11:57 AM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #78
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
Actually, just under 7 million live around here. And unless something changes, which it may, Huntsville is a country town that just happens to be close to the urban sprawl of Houston.
12-13-2017 01:40 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-12-2017 05:27 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 09:57 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  Sam Houston is an hour from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. They have 20,000 students and are in an area where getting into the Sun Belt would be a good option based on being in the footprint.

NDSU and SDSU have no G5 league close, Kalamazoo is 800 miles from Fargo, Laramie is also 800 miles. The combined population of the two states (South Dakota and North Dakota) is around 1.5 million. Again, neither will be moving up anytime soon and neither should.

I have heard interviews with the ADs from both schools discussing the finances of moving up. They are not good. In 10 years that could change. As of now, both schools have bigger priorities.

I'm an hour away from Houston, a city of 2.3 million. Sam has a following but no bigger following than TSU or Prairie View. And they're probably smaller because SWAC fanbases tend to be rabid. If they moved up, they'd probably still struggle to get headlines and fans, there'should only so many to go around. Houston's a city of 2.3 million, yet UH can't regularly sell out games and Rice doesn't exist to the average Houston sports fan.

They're just a random Texas schools that if not for the word "state," people wouldn't know they were public. Maybe if they were called Texas State it may work but not as is. They fit the Southland just fine.

And again on the Dakota schools, their states may be small but they are close to other states, especially Minnesota for NDSU.

We are both close to Minnesota, but not really populated Minnesota. Especially SDSU who claim southwest Minnesota as their fan territory. SW Minnesota is farm land with small towns. It is the the smallest population base in the state.

NDSU has the I94 corridor and is 3 hours from the western suburbs of Minneapolis. NDSU is very different then SDSU. The Fargo-Moorhead area has a population of 250,000 with very little competition for fans. One D2 school (Moorhead State) and UND up north.

SDSU sits in Brookings with a population of 30,000. The school is an hour away from the Sioux Falls area with 250,000, but the competition for fans out of Sioux Falls is tough. The University of South Dakota is an hour south of Sioux Falls and both Augustana and Sioux Falls College (D2) have solid fan bases. In addition, there is a lot of Sioux Falls sports fans who live and die Big Red NU football. A large number of people in the area have season tickets to games in Lincoln.

I really do not see SDSU moving up to FBS until they can regularly draw over 15,000 to all home FB games no matter what time of year. That is only going to happen if the fan base gets built up with extended years of success. Basketball is still king at SDSU as witnessed by the huge crowds of SDSU fans at the Summit League tournament in Sioux Falls. A national championship in football would help, a national championship plus multiple years of getting to the semi-finals in the playoffs and a second title would likely build the excitement level up enough to draw 15,000 after Thanksgiving.
12-13-2017 01:55 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #80
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
UND just scheduled fb games at Nebraska in 2022 and 2026. Nebraska didnt do it for our demographics.
12-13-2017 04:20 PM
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