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NMSU & GCU in Big West?
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #1
NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Just curious what Aggie and Lopes posters would think about NMSU and GCU joining the Big West together as travel partners? Would make way more sense than the Horizon or any other conference, don't you think?
12-07-2017 12:50 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Is NMSU prepared to pay $750,000 a year in travel subsidies to play CSUB, CSUN, Cal State Fullerton, Hawaii (no travel refund) UC Riverside and UC Davis in Basketball? This is a worse RPI conference, and you will have to raise the better part of an additional $1m to fund the schools in the Big West (adding the costs of sending not just Basketball and Baseball, but also women's volleyball, soccer, tennis teams and softball to the Islands annually). The only comparably bad move in terms of RPI hit would be the Southland, but it would likely not come with a travel fee requirement.

As it is NMSU seems to be less prepared for NCAA bids when they get them. They need a more competitive conference, not a less competitive one. It makes more sense if you are going to travel to head to a Great Lakes conference with better Olympics like the MVC or Horizon, and that is where GCU makes sense as a partner.

They same desire to move up and not sideways or down will compell GCU to look elsewhere than the Big West
12-07-2017 02:06 PM
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RunnerBall Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
A 13 school conference....if....

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(This post was last modified: 12-07-2017 02:26 PM by RunnerBall.)
12-07-2017 02:23 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 02:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Is NMSU prepared to pay $750,000 a year in travel subsidies to play CSUB, CSUN, Cal State Fullerton, Hawaii (no travel refund) UC Riverside and UC Davis in Basketball? This is a worse RPI conference, and you will have to raise the better part of an additional $1m to fund the schools in the Big West (adding the costs of sending not just Basketball and Baseball, but also women's volleyball, soccer, tennis teams and softball to the Islands annually). The only comparably bad move in terms of RPI hit would be the Southland, but it would likely not come with a travel fee requirement.

As it is NMSU seems to be less prepared for NCAA bids when they get them. They need a more competitive conference, not a less competitive one. It makes more sense if you are going to travel to head to a Great Lakes conference with better Olympics like the MVC or Horizon, and that is where GCU makes sense as a partner.

They same desire to move up and not sideways or down will compell GCU to look elsewhere than the Big West

Stu, the Horizon has a current conference RPI ranking of #30 out of 32 conferences. Last season, the WAC had a better basketball RPI and better basketball attendance than the Horizon.

The Horizon has never recovered from losing Butler. Losing Valpo was a kick to the gut. They are a one bid league. NMSU would pay the same travel stipend for the privilege of playing in a one bid, Midwest bus league that is not better than the WAC.

The same can be said for GCU. I will say that the Horizon is more stable than the WAC because they can always find a Midwest school to replace a school that leaves. That does not make them a good fit for GCU and NMSU, just means they do not have the same difficulty replacing a school that the WAC has.
12-07-2017 03:03 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 03:03 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 02:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Is NMSU prepared to pay $750,000 a year in travel subsidies to play CSUB, CSUN, Cal State Fullerton, Hawaii (no travel refund) UC Riverside and UC Davis in Basketball? This is a worse RPI conference, and you will have to raise the better part of an additional $1m to fund the schools in the Big West (adding the costs of sending not just Basketball and Baseball, but also women's volleyball, soccer, tennis teams and softball to the Islands annually). The only comparably bad move in terms of RPI hit would be the Southland, but it would likely not come with a travel fee requirement.

As it is NMSU seems to be less prepared for NCAA bids when they get them. They need a more competitive conference, not a less competitive one. It makes more sense if you are going to travel to head to a Great Lakes conference with better Olympics like the MVC or Horizon, and that is where GCU makes sense as a partner.

They same desire to move up and not sideways or down will compell GCU to look elsewhere than the Big West

Stu, the Horizon has a current conference RPI ranking of #30 out of 32 conferences. Last season, the WAC had a better basketball RPI and better basketball attendance than the Horizon.

The Horizon has never recovered from losing Butler. Losing Valpo was a kick to the gut. They are a one bid league. NMSU would pay the same travel stipend for the privilege of playing in a one bid, Midwest bus league that is not better than the WAC.

The same can be said for GCU. I will say that the Horizon is more stable than the WAC because they can always find a Midwest school to replace a school that leaves. That does not make them a good fit for GCU and NMSU, just means they do not have the same difficulty replacing a school that the WAC has.

That is why I said MVC first (IMO the better fit if they are interested).

The advantage for NMSU in the Horizon would be a sideways move from the WAC, but would bring them in better recruiting territory.

It should be noted much of the WAC current RPI is a couple decent preseason games for the conference. But most of the RPI is carried by NMSU, GCU and CSUB. With the Roadrunners moving in a couple years, NMSU and GCU would elevate any conference they moved too. Put another way compare the rest of the WAC without NMSU and GCU to the Horizon (which is the way it will be evaluated by ADs). It's not very favorable.
12-07-2017 03:17 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 03:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 03:03 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 02:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Is NMSU prepared to pay $750,000 a year in travel subsidies to play CSUB, CSUN, Cal State Fullerton, Hawaii (no travel refund) UC Riverside and UC Davis in Basketball? This is a worse RPI conference, and you will have to raise the better part of an additional $1m to fund the schools in the Big West (adding the costs of sending not just Basketball and Baseball, but also women's volleyball, soccer, tennis teams and softball to the Islands annually). The only comparably bad move in terms of RPI hit would be the Southland, but it would likely not come with a travel fee requirement.

As it is NMSU seems to be less prepared for NCAA bids when they get them. They need a more competitive conference, not a less competitive one. It makes more sense if you are going to travel to head to a Great Lakes conference with better Olympics like the MVC or Horizon, and that is where GCU makes sense as a partner.

They same desire to move up and not sideways or down will compell GCU to look elsewhere than the Big West

Stu, the Horizon has a current conference RPI ranking of #30 out of 32 conferences. Last season, the WAC had a better basketball RPI and better basketball attendance than the Horizon.

The Horizon has never recovered from losing Butler. Losing Valpo was a kick to the gut. They are a one bid league. NMSU would pay the same travel stipend for the privilege of playing in a one bid, Midwest bus league that is not better than the WAC.

The same can be said for GCU. I will say that the Horizon is more stable than the WAC because they can always find a Midwest school to replace a school that leaves. That does not make them a good fit for GCU and NMSU, just means they do not have the same difficulty replacing a school that the WAC has.

That is why I said MVC first (IMO the better fit if they are interested).

The advantage for NMSU in the Horizon would be a sideways move from the WAC, but would bring them in better recruiting territory.

It should be noted much of the WAC current RPI is a couple decent preseason games for the conference. But most of the RPI is carried by NMSU, GCU and CSUB. With the Roadrunners moving in a couple years, NMSU and GCU would elevate any conference they moved too. Put another way compare the rest of the WAC without NMSU and GCU to the Horizon (which is the way it will be evaluated by ADs). It's not very favorable.

I just don't see the MVC wanting to expand at this time and there is a bit of the bus league mentality in that conference. But that would be a better conference.

I don't see the recruiting advantage in the Midwest. I think both NMSU and GCU do well recruiting without being in the Horizon. The top RPI currently in the conference is UVU at 45. They are 6-3 and coming off an impressive 27 point win over Weber State at home last night. They are averaging 3,756 per game in attendance as well.

I think Seattle long term will be good with new head coach Jim Hayford and a healthy basketball budget. I love the market and there is just one other D1 school in the city and no NBA basketball. They are currently 6-4 with a slew of home games coming up.

CBU will bring everything. A good market, a desire to win and a brand new arena with very good attendance. They will spend money and those guys are innovative. I don't see anyone in the Horizon like CBU.

Sure, NMSU and GCU make the Horizon conference better. But they could go to the Big Sky and make that conference better. Or the Summit. The idea should be to join a league like the MWC for NMSU or WCC for GCU. Those leagues make more sense.
12-07-2017 04:31 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
I agree with on the MVC. But that means NMSU choices on a WAC meltdown are the Horizon and Big Sky. It' not a great set of choices. Ask NMSU fans and they say SBC for everything "please please please take us back," or when not pleading with the SBC then pleading with the MWC or CUSA.

The reality is the MWC, SBC and CUSA are not expanding anytime soon, and there is almost zero likelihood they have a membership change before 2025 shakeup (if OU actually even leaves the B12 triggering a realignment). The MWC requires football membership and UNM blocks NMSU, as if anyone is interested in any schools not in Texas for MWC expansion (and the money is not there for even that, so it's shelved). CUSA is already bloated, and the SBC has said no very loudly. So it's stay in the WAC and watch their stature erode (ongoing), join the Big Sky and effectively throw in the towel for FBS Football, or look for another conference in the Midwest. A public school on a tight budget like NMSU is not going to pay travel fee subsidy the Big West demands. A rock and a hard place. Who will take them?

CBU, UVU, SU, UTRGV, and if they are still around Chicago State, are not schools NMSU feels much affinity for or who do anything positive for their athletics (e.g., recruiting, profile). The longer they are with this group, the more they resemble them in the minds of recruits.

GCU wants to move up but where? The WCC wont take them -regardless of the opinion of a basketball coach or even AD - as this is not a school those Jesuit and other "old school" high prestige institutions want to be associated with (at least 6 hard "no" votes). And you are well aware of this. GCU is in a tough spot. But they are the most likely to take a Horizon invite, which some have reported they were actually given but passed for the moment, unready to make the jump last year. It would not be a step up, but it would change the brand location and put them on the path for something in the future. When Coangelo talked about a new conference he did not mean working with the scraps of the WAC, and you know that too.

I don't buy any of the CBU stuff you just spouted. Company propaganda. They will be fine, and likely about the same level as CSUB. They are not as deep pockets as GCU, but they have sufficient to be decent. What they do is fit the profile for WAC expansion, private "low church" Christian leaning schools that lack the pedigree a WCC type league would accept, but which represent the only growth segment in less than uber-elite liberal arts colleges (e.g., lower middle class targeted schools). It's not a growing constituency (it's not, it's shrinking -- low church affiliation peaked in the late 1980s, high church in the 1950s) but it is one that is becoming highly focused on cultural choices, which means more are picking Christian liberal arts schools. For this generation or so it's where growth is. UIW, HBU, GCU and CBU are examples of D-II move ups from this category. Liberty is the big name of the bunch. In MBB only GCU has made any real splash, and so far no NCAA bids (could change this year, which is also a reflection how far NMSU has fallen).

But is CBU what would keep GCU in the WAC? Hardly.

Socal, overall I think you are arguing against me mostly to argue. You really don't disagree that NMSU is between a rock and a hard place and their options are limited. And you are not of the opinion GCU will sit tight and just ride the WAC like NMSU -- they have Coangelo and friends pushing them.

Whatever. You argue. We will see what happens. UMKC bolting is the first thing to watch for, then GCU. NMSU is aways more passive and thus more likely to be left in the lurch.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2017 05:28 PM by Stugray2.)
12-07-2017 05:24 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Stu, I got better things to do than just argue with you. I get that NMSU wants into an FBS conference. There is no reason given current revenue that a conference would add them for all sports. Down the road, maybe the SBC take's them back for "football only" if they have an eastern addition for "football only" that is appealing.

We are all aware of the ambition that GCU has. They are now able to go to a post-season tournament and prove themselves worthy of a conference like the WCC. You can keep beating that drum for the Horizon, but it is just not that appealing and the Horizon chose IUPUI. They are a Midwest bus league. The Horizon is not a move up.

CBU has the facilities and the leadership. They already bring a better market and facilities than CSUB. Being private, they don't have to deal with the same issues that CSUB deals with in regards to state funding. They have donors with deep pockets and they have ambition. They have increased their marketing and advertising to compete with GCU.

I don't agree that NMSU "is between a rock and a hard place." Their situation is not ideal because they don't have a home for football. But they have a home for Olympic sports. If the WAC did not exist tomorrow, they would find a home for their Olympic sports. The issue is football. Being an independent is not easy, but we will see how it works out for them.

Like you said, we will see what happens. We will see how accurate your predictions are.
12-07-2017 06:17 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.

Olympic Sports? In 2017 the Big West had two bids in baseball and women's volleyball, with Long Beach State advancing to a Super Regional and Cal State Fullerton to the College World Series. Men's soccer is also traditionally a multi-bid sport. Softball? The Big West had five top-100 teams. Women's hoops and women's soccer, tennis, etc. are all a wash.

That $750k travel subsidy you allude to was meant for Boise because no one really wanted them, nor were they expected to stay long term. Hawaii pays much less ($250k?) and I believe that would also be true for NMSU. Maybe Bakersfield can chip in a few bucks with their travel savings.

The Big West has a tradition of being strong in multiple sports and NMSU would thrive in a reunion with their former conference mates.
12-07-2017 07:15 PM
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RunnerBall Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Ok, I'm standing here waiting for the Bako Christmas Parade to begin, so I'll play along.
Assuming the BW wants to go to an even 12, and assuming travel subs are no issue (to either party) and assuming both NMSU and GCU would be considered. Here's my question. Would one have a leg up over the other, considering the UC/CSU bloc politics? Who does Hawaii TEND to vote with on most matters; with UC, CSU, or are they REALLY unaligned on the issues to a large extent?

In other words, does Hawaii tend to sway issues one way and would the BW want a school that would tend to even things out?

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(This post was last modified: 12-07-2017 09:23 PM by RunnerBall.)
12-07-2017 09:13 PM
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
BW would demand travel subs from NMSU...and considering they will have a tough road ahead of them in Indy FBS they probably have better things to spend money on that travel subs to be in a Cali bus league.

GCU? You think the UC's will tolerate being in the same conference as a for-profit private Christian university? LOL.
12-07-2017 11:45 PM
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RunnerBall Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 11:45 PM)SDHornet Wrote:  BW would demand travel subs from NMSU...and considering they will have a tough road ahead of them in Indy FBS they probably have better things to spend money on that travel subs to be in a Cali bus league.

GCU? You think the UC's will tolerate being in the same conference as a for-profit private Christian university? LOL.
No, I know all that and do agree.

Just as purely hypothetical political preference (without those issues factored in), NMSU or GCU?

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(This post was last modified: 12-07-2017 11:55 PM by RunnerBall.)
12-07-2017 11:54 PM
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 11:45 PM)SDHornet Wrote:  BW would demand travel subs from NMSU...and considering they will have a tough road ahead of them in Indy FBS they probably have better things to spend money on that travel subs to be in a Cali bus league.

GCU? You think the UC's will tolerate being in the same conference as a for-profit private Christian university? LOL.

GCU ends current effort to convert to nonprofit
https://news.gcu.edu/2016/03/gcu-ends-cu...nonprofit/

GCU tried going non-profit in 2016 but was denied. They'd need to do a lot groundwork to satisfy the regional accrediting body the Higher Learning Commission (HLC) requirements for non-profit status. GCU will probably regroup and try again when they're closer to the mark.

Pacific is non-profit Private United Methodist Church university that was in the BWC from 1971-2013. So there is a precedent for a christian school in the BWC. GCU just has to get their sh*t together as far as switching to the non-profit status.

GCU will probably build out then go for non-profit status later...
12-08-2017 12:02 AM
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SDHornet Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 11:54 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 11:45 PM)SDHornet Wrote:  BW would demand travel subs from NMSU...and considering they will have a tough road ahead of them in Indy FBS they probably have better things to spend money on that travel subs to be in a Cali bus league.

GCU? You think the UC's will tolerate being in the same conference as a for-profit private Christian university? LOL.
No, I know all that and do agree.

Just as purely hypothetical political preference (without those issues factored in), NMSU or GCU?

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Sorry my post was meant to be a general post on the OP, not a specific reply to your post. Hope that clears things up.
12-08-2017 12:04 AM
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RunnerBall Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:04 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 11:54 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 11:45 PM)SDHornet Wrote:  BW would demand travel subs from NMSU...and considering they will have a tough road ahead of them in Indy FBS they probably have better things to spend money on that travel subs to be in a Cali bus league.

GCU? You think the UC's will tolerate being in the same conference as a for-profit private Christian university? LOL.
No, I know all that and do agree.

Just as purely hypothetical political preference (without those issues factored in), NMSU or GCU?

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Sorry my post was meant to be a general post on the OP, not a specific reply to your post. Hope that clears things up.
No biggie, no worries.

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12-08-2017 02:14 AM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  Ok, I'm standing here waiting for the Bako Christmas Parade to begin, so I'll play along.
Assuming the BW wants to go to an even 12, and assuming travel subs are no issue (to either party) and assuming both NMSU and GCU would be considered. Here's my question. Would one have a leg up over the other, considering the UC/CSU bloc politics? Who does Hawaii TEND to vote with on most matters; with UC, CSU, or are they REALLY unaligned on the issues to a large extent?

In other words, does Hawaii tend to sway issues one way and would the BW want a school that would tend to even things out?

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I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
12-08-2017 02:34 AM
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ProfScott Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-07-2017 07:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.
May I ask where you got this information? KenPom has the WAC as the 19th best conference and the BW at 25th (out of 32). Did you perhaps confuse the BW with the WCC?
12-08-2017 12:13 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:13 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 07:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.
May I ask where you got this information? KenPom has the WAC as the 19th best conference and the BW at 25th (out of 32). Did you perhaps confuse the BW with the WCC?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
12-08-2017 12:30 PM
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ProfScott Offline
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2017 12:42 PM by ProfScott.)
12-08-2017 12:37 PM
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:30 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:13 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 07:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.
May I ask where you got this information? KenPom has the WAC as the 19th best conference and the BW at 25th (out of 32). Did you perhaps confuse the BW with the WCC?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
Thanks. I did not know you were referring to "live RPI" which fluctuates so much. Using live RPI then we can also say that UC Davis is currently the 18th best team in the nation (even though they lost to Utah Valley). I do not think college administrators would decide the quality of a basketball program on "live RPI" when discussing realignment possibilities.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-rpi.html
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2017 12:55 PM by ProfScott.)
12-08-2017 12:54 PM
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