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NMSU & GCU in Big West?
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #21
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:54 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:30 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:13 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 07:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.
May I ask where you got this information? KenPom has the WAC as the 19th best conference and the BW at 25th (out of 32). Did you perhaps confuse the BW with the WCC?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
Thanks. I did not know you were referring to "live RPI" which fluctuates so much. Using live RPI then we can also say that UC Davis is currently the 18th best team in the nation (even though they lost to Utah Valley). I do not think college administrators would decide the quality of a basketball program on "live RPI" when discussing realignment possibilities.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-rpi.html

Perhaps, but it's nowhere near as bad as stu makes it out to be. The WAC is projected to finish 16th, the BW 17th. So much for a vast difference.
12-08-2017 02:07 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
JDGaucho,

The issue for NMSU is finances, and the Big West requires paying travel money. That kills it for them. They are already budget constrained. They don't have a big time football program like Boise State which was supposed to bring in an extra $10m a year (Big East promises not kept) to pay for Big West Olympics. This has always been the issue, and always will be. The RPI is very much secondary. And again look at a 5 or 6 year average rather than a single data point.

Yeah, I also don't see a hill of beans difference for the conference one is in if not the top 12 (6 majors, plus WCC, A10, AAC, with MWC and MVC on the verge of slipping out of the "upper mid-majors" category). They are all single bid.

But the WAC is weak, and you can see that by having some fun and moving GCU and NMSU to say the MVC or Horizon and then computing the changed Sagarin ratings. Those conferences move up a spot or two and the WAC falls several spots, almost to the bottom.

Jerry Coangelo has a vision of the best mid-major programs (we are talking those ranging from 60 to 120 in budget size but not in one of the six major conferences ... the AAC has almost all it's members in there ditto most of the A10 and WCC schools though a bit further down the scale, plus the likes of NMSU, GCU) forming conferences where they would be competing for more than one bid. The problem of course is these programs are scattered across different conferences. So I don't know how that ever happens beyond fan dreams.

JD, you are more a die-hard advocate for Big West expansion beyond California than an fair minded analyst of the reality. This thread is more about advocacy than reality.

The Big West is not an option for NMSU. Budget (travel fees) are the reason.

The Big West is not an option for GCU because of UC politics and for-profit schools, and frankly for faith based schools of any kind.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2017 06:26 PM by Stugray2.)
12-08-2017 04:09 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #23
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Well Stugray,
The Big West two years ago, 16th in RPI. Three years ago, 15th. It'll probably finish 16th or 17th this year. It's more than just a one year blip. Hawaii joining, Pacific leaving and Boise and SDSU's combined $3 million exit fees didn't come about until 2013.

NMSU would save some coin moving into the Big West with 10 California members and Hawaii. They'd certainly find it easier bribing their way back in than they did with the Sun Belt. In 2015 NMSU offered $2.4 million in travel subsidies over seven years to join the Sun Belt as a full member. Coastal Carolina was added instead. I know, the Belt is an FBS conference that gets a piece of the CFP pie, but it's telling nonetheless.

https://www.underdogdynasty.com/2015/9/1...sation-for

$2.4 million to the Big West could probably be spread out over a decade plus. $240k annually. Which might be what they pay right now with all those trips every year to Chicago, Kansas City, Edinburg, Seattle, Orem, Phoenix and Bakersfield.
12-08-2017 04:51 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 04:51 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Well Stugray,
The Big West two years ago, 16th in RPI. Three years ago, 15th. It'll probably finish 16th or 17th this year. It's more than just a one year blip. Hawaii joining, Pacific leaving and Boise and SDSU's combined $3 million exit fees didn't come about until 2013.

NMSU would save some coin moving into the Big West with 10 California members and Hawaii. They'd certainly find it easier bribing their way back in than they did with the Sun Belt. In 2015 NMSU offered $2.4 million in travel subsidies over seven years to join the Sun Belt as a full member. Coastal Carolina was added instead. I know, the Belt is an FBS conference that gets a piece of the CFP pie, but it's telling nonetheless.

https://www.underdogdynasty.com/2015/9/1...sation-for

$2.4 million to the Big West could probably be spread out over a decade plus. $240k annually. Which might be what they pay right now with all those trips every year to Chicago, Kansas City, Edinburg, Seattle, Orem, Phoenix and Bakersfield.

New Mexico State offered cash to take their FB. The Big West doesn't do that. So money to the Big West would be independent of that. And the fee the Big West would ask for is considerably higher, they asked for twice that from Boise State, plus an extra entry and exit fee (which they settled for $1m). When you calculate inflation, the figure today would be closer to $700,000 a year, and likely in perpetuity, not expiring.

Again for a sideways move and not solving football, and still adding travel costs to Hawai'i (while paying Hawai'i's expense to come to Las Cruces; so you are paying for a team trip to Honolulu and back whether you are hosting or visiting for every sport) is a back breaker.

Again you are advocating something that is not happening. And yes I understand you really really really truly want it to happen. I get that.

But it's not going to happen, and you know it. It's a non-starter.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 03:23 PM by Stugray2.)
12-08-2017 06:35 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #25
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 01:56 PM by HawaiiMongoose.)
12-09-2017 01:34 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
The research is the key thing with the UCs. And as with BYU being opposed to a point of rabid insanity by P12 public schools, including Cal and UCLA, says that the politics of the UCs will not accept a religious school. They would have to be like UOP or TCU, where the affiliation is barely coincidental and historical (as it is for say Rutgers, Princeton and Harvard), which is to say something in the past.

So GCU is facing 5 hard no votes from the UC schools, before even speculating about the Cal State's (one or two surely have attitudes similar to the UC Chancellors, but I suspect most are indifferent) or Hawai'i (probably indifferent given their long standing association with BYU). In short there is no way GCU could get an invite off the ground.

The Big Sky presents many fewer problems because those are mostly "Red State" schools, and otherwise regional schools who like the Cal States (CSUB was fine with GCU and CBU, and supposedly Sac State pitched GCU to the Big Sky) are not philosophically opposed to GCU. So a Big Sky invite is possible if GCU were interested. There is no stigma like the UCs would feel, so nothing like the same level of opposition.

For what it's worth the Big Sky would likely consider either GCU or NMSU. But I have seen nothing to indicate even the faintest interest in Seattle or anyone beyond those two.
12-09-2017 03:33 PM
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ProfScott Offline
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Post: #27
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-09-2017 01:34 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php
Thanks! Your information here is helpful since it defines what the UC schools determine as academically sound institutions, namely the US News and World Report. I 100% agree that GCU is not yet one of those institutions since we are in the infant stages of our doctoral programs and in doing major research. We are also predominantly a teaching institution and not a research institution. However, I would also 100% disagree that the measurements used by US News and World Report are what defines a quality education, especially at the undergraduate level.
12-09-2017 05:45 PM
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RunnerBall Offline
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Post: #28
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-09-2017 01:34 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php

Slight correction. CSUB is actually 455.
12-09-2017 09:13 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #29
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Oops, my bad, I reported the ranking for CSUSB instead of CSUB. 05-footinmouth

I do know the difference. Sorry about that.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 11:29 PM by HawaiiMongoose.)
12-09-2017 09:35 PM
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SDHornet Offline
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Post: #30
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...
12-10-2017 12:09 AM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #31
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-10-2017 12:09 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...

The table shows Sac State growing its research spending from $183,000 in 2007 to $20.7 million in 2016. Most of that growth was during the recession when California public universities were taking big budget cuts. I'm guessing quite a few faculty members had to go out and find research grants to preserve their jobs.
12-10-2017 01:58 AM
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Post: #32
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-10-2017 01:58 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 12:09 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...

The table shows Sac State growing its research spending from $183,000 in 2007 to $20.7 million in 2016. Most of that growth was during the recession when California public universities were taking big budget cuts. I'm guessing quite a few faculty members had to go out and find research grants to preserve their jobs.

That's crazy growth, of course most of that time corresponds to our last President (Gonzales) that also did a lot to get new/upgraded infrastructure on campus. Our current President (Nelsen) has also begun some significant capital improvements as well.

With a new $90M science building slated to open fall 2019 (ground broke this past Sept) those research dollars will only continue to increase.
12-11-2017 01:31 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #33
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-11-2017 01:31 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 01:58 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 12:09 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...

The table shows Sac State growing its research spending from $183,000 in 2007 to $20.7 million in 2016. Most of that growth was during the recession when California public universities were taking big budget cuts. I'm guessing quite a few faculty members had to go out and find research grants to preserve their jobs.

That's crazy growth, of course most of that time corresponds to our last President (Gonzales) that also did a lot to get new/upgraded infrastructure on campus. Our current President (Nelsen) has also begun some significant capital improvements as well.

With a new $90M science building slated to open fall 2019 (ground broke this past Sept) those research dollars will only continue to increase.

Good for Sac St. Hope the momentum continues and some of that starts to trickle in for athletics. They need at least a 5k arena for basketball and it wouldn't hurt to revamp Hornet stadium but I think with the US T&F meets that are held there, it would be hard to get the track moved from that location.
12-12-2017 09:24 AM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #34
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Reading more and more about the Big West and I'm convinced NMSU and GCU could do much better. I would like to see NMSU and GCU in the Mountain West together but until GCU gets rid of that for profit thing, the MWC will never take them. If NMSU can sustain a good football program it's going to happen. We have 3 MWC teams on football schedule for next year and the chatter among MWC fan bases is to add NMSU. Unfortunately they want to see Utep and ask a package. GCU would get the MWC into Arizona, but again, for profit, no bueno.
12-12-2017 10:28 AM
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SDHornet Offline
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Post: #35
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-12-2017 09:24 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:31 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 01:58 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 12:09 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...

The table shows Sac State growing its research spending from $183,000 in 2007 to $20.7 million in 2016. Most of that growth was during the recession when California public universities were taking big budget cuts. I'm guessing quite a few faculty members had to go out and find research grants to preserve their jobs.

That's crazy growth, of course most of that time corresponds to our last President (Gonzales) that also did a lot to get new/upgraded infrastructure on campus. Our current President (Nelsen) has also begun some significant capital improvements as well.

With a new $90M science building slated to open fall 2019 (ground broke this past Sept) those research dollars will only continue to increase.

Good for Sac St. Hope the momentum continues and some of that starts to trickle in for athletics. They need at least a 5k arena for basketball and it wouldn't hurt to revamp Hornet stadium but I think with the US T&F meets that are held there, it would be hard to get the track moved from that location.

Athletics budget has been steadily increasing over the last 10 years and is now pushing $27M. When Nelsen arrived on campus a few years ago 2 of his main infrastructure projects he highlighted in his first campus address were the science building and events center. With the science building in construction he can fully focus on the events center.

The events center feasibility study is in progress. The study will identify the capacity and campus location for the venue. The rumor I heard last spring was possibly teaming up with a minor league team, not sure how far those talks went of if that is even on the table (Kings want to move their G League team from Reno to Sac and need at least a 5k capacity secondary venue to host an all star game, Sharks want to relocate their minor league to Sac). Personally I'd like to see the venue closer to 8k but anything 5k and over will do.

The other big part is of course funding. A good chunk will need to be raised (say $10-$20M depending on the final price tag for construction) up front but ultimately a student fee will be needed to cover the bulk of the costs (and operations once it's built). Nelsen will have to forcibly enact this following a failed student vote (students likely won't pass a new referendum even though one was passed in 2004, a newer one failed just before Nelsen showed up). However Sac State has the 2nd lowest campus-wide fees of all the football sponsoring CSU's so the question will be how large of a fee does Nelsen deem palatable.

Either way if this thing doesn't get built while Nelsen is here, I don't think it ever will.
12-13-2017 12:18 AM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the WAC is weak, and you can see that by having some fun and moving GCU and NMSU to say the MVC or Horizon and then computing the changed Sagarin ratings. Those conferences move up a spot or two and the WAC falls several spots, almost to the bottom.

Stu, while I agreed with much of your post, this is just not accurate.
The current WAC RPI ranking is at #16. The WCC is at #15 and the Horizon is at #29. Sure, if the WAC lost NMSU and GCU, they would drop down to near the bottom.

But if the WCC lost Gonzaga and St. Mary's, they become a one bid league like the WAC and they drop down to near the bottom. Six of the ten WCC schools have an RPI of over 200.

The Horizon already knows the feeling of dropping to the bottom. They lost Butler and Valpo and replaced them with Oakland and IUPUI. Butler has a current RPI ranking of #32. Valpo is at #78. Oakland has an RPI of #156 and IUPUI is at #323.

The Horizon is a one bid league, just like the WAC. Same NCAA Tournament revenue. They were a one bid league with Butler and Valpo. Now they are just a bad one bid league without them.

So yes, the Horizon RPI would improve with the addition of NMSU and GCU. It is near the bottom. Losing two good teams will also effect conference RPI. That does not make the current conference weak.
12-13-2017 01:39 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
SoCal, look at RPI at the end of the year not now.

And a 5 year average.
12-13-2017 01:52 PM
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Post: #38
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
SoCal Texas State fan,

The fundamental problem for NMSU is that their expectations and image, much like that of UTEP is as a major basketball program. The WAC is not likely to ever give that to them. Their NCAA flops are testament to this. They have not been competitive against Tourney teams for a good long while.

This year Sagarin shows them 95. The ideal conference for them is probably the MVC (which is the one I advocate). I see the Horizon as a step to get in the MVC if they cannot go there directly.

#26 Northern Iowa
#57 Loyola Chicago
#60 Missouri State
#73 Valparaiso
(#95 New Mexico State)
#101 Evansville
#103 Bradley

The bottom schools are 186, 200, 208

The WCC would be nice too

#17 Gonzaga
#58 San Diego
#63 Brigham Young
#82 St. Mary's
(#95 New Mexico State)

The WCC like the WAC has a very bad bottom

The Horizon is really hurting without Valpo, looks similar to the WAC at the top

#94 Northern Kentucky
(#95 New Mexico State)

then like the WAC (2 Horizon 3 WAC) of 125-160 range schools or 72-73 rating (the difference between 110 and 170 is very little, one game can vault or drop a school 25 spots). But yes the Horizon is really fallen off.

The MWC seems to have recovered from two years of poor showing (multi-bid seems likely this year). In a perfect world for Las Cruces, NMSU would be a MWC school.

#20 Nevada
#24 San Diego State
#33 Boise State
#44 UNLV
#54 Fresno State
#92 Utah State
(#95 New Mexico State)

If NMSU left the WAC then the leader would be outside the top 125 schools. If New Mexico State joined a conference with more schools in the top 100, it would boost their RPI and recruiting, and profile. They have the potential to be a top 50 program again. But they can't get there in the WAC.

The Big West would be a small step up. Or rather UCSB (#59) has recovered, and UC Davis (#72) pulled off a big upset, so the RPI looks good. But the depth of the league is still the same, and they will likely revert to that next year.

Again SoCal, if you were reading closely rather than trying to make contrarian arguments you'd see I think the MVC is the end game for NMSU. I do not think their Football will survive to the 2025 realignment. That is a long time to be an independent. So their fans should enjoy this bowl game.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2017 02:26 PM by Stugray2.)
12-13-2017 02:25 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-13-2017 01:52 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  SoCal, look at RPI at the end of the year not now.

And a 5 year average.

WAC RPI last season was #17. This season at this point it is #16. There is a RPI pattern developing in the WAC.

Many of the schools in the WAC are in their first D1 autobid conference and are just beginning to develop their basketball programs. A five year average is not a true reflection of where they are at or where they are going.

The Horizon has averaged #18 over the past three years and replaced Valpo with IUPUI. Right now, five of the ten Horizon schools have an RPI of 317 or worse. Seven of the ten Horizon schools have an RPI of over 200. The Horizon is trending in the wrong direction.
12-13-2017 02:40 PM
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RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
I don't believe in one or two year trends. You seem to. If you believed that then the the MWC on the way out of upper mid-majors. Funny thing happened.

I don't think the WAC has done much of anything. This year has a lot of mid-major upsets of Majors. Fluke IMO.

Again you are looking at the Horizon as a terminal conference. Which is why you I think you are being deliberately stupid in your response. The end game is the MVC or MWC.

Heck I have long been for the MWC taking NMSU in Olympics. I'd rather we not have Hawaii in anything, but we're stuck with them in football. It was part of the effort to keep BYU and destroy the WAC. But it was a bad move long term. Barbara Coulture made it easy to accept keeping NMSU out.
12-13-2017 03:36 PM
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