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Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2017 04:27 PM by JRsec.)
12-03-2017 04:24 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
So, we still don't know what it is exactly that leads the committee to do whatever it does.

It's great for creating drama around the sport, but little else.

We ought to just get rid of the committee and go back to the computers.
12-03-2017 05:49 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 04:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.

Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.
12-03-2017 05:52 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 05:52 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 04:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.

Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.

If you check the annual revenue listings as I do there is a pretty clear break around the 71st position in revenue every year. 4 conferences of 18 each is not far fetched. And getting there by 2023 is possible if all of the Big 10 schools have homes. And in a 72 team P scenario there is ample room to make it happen. So we'll see. If we wind up having to play 12 P games for the regular season you better believe these conferences will take a look at adding a few more of the present G5.
12-03-2017 06:49 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
I think if you are not in the ACc and SEC or Texas? You do not get the top 4 spots. I do think if you are Notre Dame? You do not have any control, and could be left out if you are not under contract with ESPN.
12-03-2017 07:18 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 06:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 05:52 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 04:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.

Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.

If you check the annual revenue listings as I do there is a pretty clear break around the 71st position in revenue every year. 4 conferences of 18 each is not far fetched. And getting there by 2023 is possible if all of the Big 10 schools have homes. And in a 72 team P scenario there is ample room to make it happen. So we'll see. If we wind up having to play 12 P games for the regular season you better believe these conferences will take a look at adding a few more of the present G5.

How about 3 groups each with 2 12 team leagues.
12-03-2017 07:37 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 07:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I think if you are not in the ACc and SEC or Texas? You do not get the top 4 spots. I do think if you are Notre Dame? You do not have any control, and could be left out if you are not under contract with ESPN.

I'm not usually much for this kind of thing, but it WAS striking last night how the FOX studio crew was unanimous that Ohio State should get in over Alabama, whereas the ESPN crew tilted much moreso towards the Tide, though not unanimously so, which figures as they have a piece of the B1G as well.

Basically, if we were predicting how the TV crews would lean based on media deals with conferences, we'd expect (a) FOX to be all in for the B1G rep, because they have a big slice of the B1G but nothing with the SEC, and (b) ESPN to lean towards Alabama, because they own the SECN but have a bit of the B1G too.

And basically, that's the way it was.

One big advantage Alabama had was whereas FOX's pro-OSU gab ended around midnight, ESPN, because they had the morning lead-in to the Selection Show, could prop up Bama all morning long.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2017 07:49 PM by quo vadis.)
12-03-2017 07:49 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 07:37 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 06:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 05:52 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 04:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.

Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.

If you check the annual revenue listings as I do there is a pretty clear break around the 71st position in revenue every year. 4 conferences of 18 each is not far fetched. And getting there by 2023 is possible if all of the Big 10 schools have homes. And in a 72 team P scenario there is ample room to make it happen. So we'll see. If we wind up having to play 12 P games for the regular season you better believe these conferences will take a look at adding a few more of the present G5.

How about 3 groups each with 2 12 team leagues.

It's possible until you take a serious look at the mix. I think if we move to 3 groups they will consist of 2 10 team leagues and consist of 60 schools.

In such an alignment you might see Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas and Texas Tech and Nebraska head West.

7 from the ACC to the Big 10 and 6 from the ACC to the SEC.

Maybe another conference is formed for the leftovers and best of the G5.

As the market model dies and content (both national and strong regional) pays the bills and further additions become unlikely, or impossible, I think collections of schools within regions will form a kind of bargaining consortium for selling their rights. In other words strength in numbers for making new contracts. So I think when Mike Slive said two years ago that future realignment could well see very very large conferences he already saw the demise of market models and realized that controlling product exclusively in a region would be the safest way to maintain leverage in negotiating contracts.

In 2024 we could well see this.

If I had to guess Virginia, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Notre Dame to the Big 10. This would permit the original Big 10 to form the West and Maryland, Rutgers, and Penn State to form the East. That's 2 concentrated geographically specific groupings.

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, and Miami to the SEC. Add Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Auburn to those and you have your 10 team East. Put Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt and Missouri in the West and you have it.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2017 08:05 PM by JRsec.)
12-03-2017 07:51 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 05:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So, we still don't know what it is exactly that leads the committee to do whatever it does.

It's great for creating drama around the sport, but little else.

We ought to just get rid of the committee and go back to the computers.

Agree 100%, at least then you know what you have to do to get in. The Pairwise in college hockey is transparent and leaves no room for monkey business like we have now.
12-03-2017 08:01 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 07:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I think if you are not in the ACc and SEC or Texas? You do not get the top 4 spots. I do think if you are Notre Dame? You do not have any control, and could be left out if you are not under contract with ESPN.

Teams other than ACC/SEC and Texas that have made the playoff

Ohio St (2x)
Oklahoma (2x) including this year
Washington
Michigan St
Oregon

Any other black helicopter theories?
12-03-2017 08:10 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 08:01 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 05:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So, we still don't know what it is exactly that leads the committee to do whatever it does.

It's great for creating drama around the sport, but little else.

We ought to just get rid of the committee and go back to the computers.

Agree 100%, at least then you know what you have to do to get in. The Pairwise in college hockey is transparent and leaves no room for monkey business like we have now.

I think the BCS system for rankings was actually the optimum--the polls reflect the human element, popular opinion about the best teams, the computers made an attempt at an objective evaluation. And the formula made a mixture of the two. I don't think there were any big "mistakes" in the last few years of the BCS--where the majority opinion was that the BCS got it seriously wrong. There was a lot of controversy about the Auburn-Alabama rematch, but Auburn winning justified their inclusion, and that was probably a major factor in going to 4 teams.

The biggest problem with the committee, in my opinion, is that it's such a small group that it's easy to argue almost any kind of bias or motivation--big-name-school bias, doing-ESPNs-bidding, SEC bias, personal animosities.
12-03-2017 09:15 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 12:46 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  This just shows what a joke the playoff system as it's not really a playoff it's just a beauty contest

You have two conference champions left out while the third-place team in the SEC gets in

And the idiot talking heads keep saying Alabama is willing to play anybody anywhere that's ******* bull**** Alabama will not play a road game a true road game

And then they fill up with three Patsys Alabama has the worst scheduling practice the CFP committee has just set the signal that your schedule does not matter

how the hell can you say that when you have teams like Washington not even scheduling a P5 team some seasons. Alabama last year played USC who- where did they go? That's right, the ROSE BOWL. A top 10 team. They had Florida St this year who would have been a top 25 team for sure had Alabama not knocked out the QB. Go cry me a river.

To me, getting Washington in last year was FAR more egregious than Alabama this year. Washington had NO business in the playoff last year. NONE.

Oh and for those that would like the computers. Know that the BCS results gave Alabama the #4 slot. It would have been EXACTLY the same. Oops.
12-03-2017 10:09 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 05:52 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 04:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 03:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think this puts to an end the "conventional wisdom" that Notre Dame has to join a conference because of the existence of the Playoff Committee.

This makes two years in a row that a non-conference champ or conference championship game participant made the playoffs.

It seems to me that the committee has taken the slightly more controversial path in each of the last three years and yes in the last two they seemed to contraindicate the need of that 13th data point.

One might think that perhaps they were intentionally giving the finger to the CCG's. If so the motive might be the networks desire to horn in on the profits that the conferences make off of the CCG's. Get to 4 conferences of 2 divisions of 8 schools and then the CFP can essentially take the 8 division winners and play it off. Each conference gets 2 shots at a title and there is no need for a conference to beat up their champions.

I think there will be great resistance to this, and I think Delaney in his remarks today dug in his heels a bit on going to 8. I think Sankey would do the same.

But it could be a propaganda war the networks will continue to wage to try to pressure for 3 weekends that they control. We'll see.

Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.

More "conventional wisdom", perhaps?
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2017 10:31 PM by TerryD.)
12-03-2017 10:30 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 10:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 12:46 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  This just shows what a joke the playoff system as it's not really a playoff it's just a beauty contest

You have two conference champions left out while the third-place team in the SEC gets in

And the idiot talking heads keep saying Alabama is willing to play anybody anywhere that's ******* bull**** Alabama will not play a road game a true road game

And then they fill up with three Patsys Alabama has the worst scheduling practice the CFP committee has just set the signal that your schedule does not matter

how the hell can you say that when you have teams like Washington not even scheduling a P5 team some seasons. Alabama last year played USC who- where did they go? That's right, the ROSE BOWL. A top 10 team. They had Florida St this year who would have been a top 25 team for sure had Alabama not knocked out the QB. Go cry me a river.

To me, getting Washington in last year was FAR more egregious than Alabama this year. Washington had NO business in the playoff last year. NONE.

Oh and for those that would like the computers. Know that the BCS results gave Alabama the #4 slot. It would have been EXACTLY the same. Oops.

S20, I am one for the Computers but I am a data guy. I figured Bama would be ahead in computer rankings but would not have been upset if OSU came out as four. It was really splitting hairs between these two. Personally, I agreed with the CFP that OSU losses were more important than better wins than Bama and barely beating Wisc for the Big 10 title. However, if OSU got in, I would have understood that logic as well. Again, this is why I like four, it means more assuring one P5 is left out instead of trying to get 8 teams in. Odds are G5 would get left out, which would have happened with UCF.
12-03-2017 10:32 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
That asswhooping by Iowa did them in. They also lost bad at home to Oklahoma. I would have had
USC
Wisconsin
Alabama
Auburn
OSU

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12-03-2017 10:34 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 05:52 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Many believe this is where it is headed in 2024 when B12 expires and hopefully ND joins the ACC to help create 72 team power four conferences. I think this will be the last shot for some G5 teams to become power schools.

But the G5 is also becoming a more coveted place to be.

The 14 million CUSA received as part of the G5 agreement dwarfs the money any FCS conference received for anything.

In the future instead of splitting the money 12-14 ways the G5 will be splitting it 10-12 ways against a bigger total value.

Coastal Carolina's move from the Big South to the SBC in their eyes is a big step up. Opens the door nationally on many fronts. They know they'll never be in the P5 but they don't care.
12-03-2017 11:58 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
Committee is soooooo stupid, it’s going to ruin college football as we know it,
The NBA, NFL do not bend over for their TV contracts like college football dose
When big TV money hit cfb is when everything started to change for worse or better, might be for the better in about 10 years when everybody just gets tired of the committee
ESPN has built this house of cards that is solely based on Alabama being a top 4 team
The big losers in all this are Alabama fans, it doesn’t matter how much lipstick ESPN puts on you, your still just not a pro football team .
12-04-2017 01:18 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
(12-03-2017 09:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 08:01 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(12-03-2017 05:49 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So, we still don't know what it is exactly that leads the committee to do whatever it does.

It's great for creating drama around the sport, but little else.

We ought to just get rid of the committee and go back to the computers.

Agree 100%, at least then you know what you have to do to get in. The Pairwise in college hockey is transparent and leaves no room for monkey business like we have now.

I think the BCS system for rankings was actually the optimum--the polls reflect the human element, popular opinion about the best teams, the computers made an attempt at an objective evaluation. And the formula made a mixture of the two. I don't think there were any big "mistakes" in the last few years of the BCS--where the majority opinion was that the BCS got it seriously wrong. There was a lot of controversy about the Auburn-Alabama rematch, but Auburn winning justified their inclusion, and that was probably a major factor in going to 4 teams.

The biggest problem with the committee, in my opinion, is that it's such a small group that it's easy to argue almost any kind of bias or motivation--big-name-school bias, doing-ESPNs-bidding, SEC bias, personal animosities.

So, I took six different rankings: The selection committee, AP and Coaches' polls, Sagarin, Massey and Colley Matrix. I threw out the highest and lowest ranking for each team, and averaged the rest. These are the results, compared with the committee rank alone:

......Team.......CFP....Composite

Clemson...........1........1
Oklahoma.........2........2
Georgia............3........3
Alabama..........4........4
Ohio State........5........5
Wisconsin.........6........6
Auburn............7........7
USC................8........9
Penn State.......9........8
Miami.............10......11
Washington.....11......13
UCF................12......10
Stanford.........13......15
Notre Dame....14......12
TCU................15.....14

The first seven are identical, and Penn State and USC take turns at #8 and #9. The only practical result that would be different from the selection committee's decisions would be that Notre Dame would get the last NY6 spot instead of Washington.

How much better could the committee have done?
12-04-2017 09:16 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
they did a mock BCS ratings based off of AP, Coaches, and the 6 BCS computers....

It produced 100% the same results for the top 4.
12-04-2017 09:20 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Alabama is IN, Ohio State is OUT !!!
Biggest controversies in the BCS usually lay with 2 vs 3.... very rarely did you have a 4 and 5 in the mix for the top 2 of which I can't even recall. That's why 4 is the perfect number for some controversy and debate as well as ensuring that a team isn't royally screwed like a 13-0 Auburn way back when or the 12-1 AP champ Trojans finishing under Saban's LSU and OU.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 09:28 AM by RUScarlets.)
12-04-2017 09:28 AM
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