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How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
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ken d Online
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Post: #1
How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?
11-26-2017 09:11 AM
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Post: #2
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
Simple. Start by eliminating all G5 schools.
11-26-2017 10:01 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #3
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 09:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?

Disagree, because IMO the operative principle is that within reason, the contract between a bowl and conference should be honored. Meaning that unless a contracted conference cannot produce enough eligible teams, the bowl should be filled by the contracted conference, not a team from another conference.

Given the presence of 40 bowls, IMO a 6-6 record makes sense for that purpose. Under the rules, a 6-6 team is "eligible", period. So if the New Orleans Bowl has a contract with C-USA, and C-USA has a 6-6 team, C-USA shouldn't lose that bowl to another conference based on APR.

Once you move to the extraordinary situation of having ineligible teams, 5-7 teams, to fill slots, then yes, let APR decide it because the contract is, for that year, already void because of the failure of the conference to produce enough eligible teams.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2017 10:04 AM by quo vadis.)
11-26-2017 10:01 AM
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
I thought the bowls were in charge of making selections, not the ncaa?
11-26-2017 10:56 AM
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Post: #5
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
Only way you can do that is by cutting enough bowls that only teams with seven wins can get in normally, basically where we are today with six and five win scenes.
11-26-2017 11:24 AM
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Post: #6
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 10:56 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  I thought the bowls were in charge of making selections, not the ncaa?

Correct.
11-26-2017 11:39 AM
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Post: #7
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
How many 6-6 teams did FBS finally end up with?
11-26-2017 11:51 AM
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Post: #8
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 09:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?

Eliminate all of those who have just lost their head coach. I suggest this for two reasons. 1. Any school who has just lost their head coach (regardless of record) seldom plays a great bowl game. 2. We need for the sake of the sport to eliminate coaches leaving before the bowls and playoffs are played. This method may eliminate both issues.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2017 01:29 PM by JRsec.)
11-26-2017 01:28 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #9
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 11:24 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Only way you can do that is by cutting enough bowls that only teams with seven wins can get in normally, basically where we are today with six and five win scenes.

I also agree with this. 5 wins should never translate into a bowl appearance and quite frankly 6-6 doesn't do it for me either.
11-26-2017 01:36 PM
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Post: #10
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 10:01 AM)Pensionplug Wrote:  Simple. Start by eliminating all G5 schools.

03-lmfao
11-26-2017 02:03 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 11:51 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  How many 6-6 teams did FBS finally end up with?

14 teams are currently at 6-6 (not including Ole Miss who is ineligible for other reasons). Three more can get to 6-6 next week.

While technically the bowls currently decide who goes, they must follow NCAA rules about who is eligible. So, if there aren't enough 6 win teams to fill all the bowls, they can't just take a 5-7 team because they have a contractual tie in with their conference. They must take them based on their most recent APR scores.

If the contactual tie in isn't sacred for 5-7 teams, I don't see why it should be more sacred for 6-6 teams. If the NCAA can mandate the use of APR scores in case there are too few teams, I don't see why they can't do the same if there are too many.

The alternative will usually mean that P5 schools will get preferential treatment over G5 teams, since they will almost always be able to command more and better tie-ins with the bowls. Why does the system need to be rigged even more in favor of the P5? It's not like they need the extra money more than the G5 conferences do.
11-26-2017 02:18 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #12
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 01:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 09:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?

Eliminate all of those who have just lost their head coach. I suggest this for two reasons. 1. Any school who has just lost their head coach (regardless of record) seldom plays a great bowl game. 2. We need for the sake of the sport to eliminate coaches leaving before the bowls and playoffs are played. This method may eliminate both issues.

Do you really want to punish the players because their coach bailed on them? I don't think this change would stop coaches from leaving early for a new job.
11-26-2017 02:21 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #13
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 10:01 AM)Pensionplug Wrote:  Simple. Start by eliminating all G5 schools.

If you're referring to G5 schools in bowls.....are there any P5 teams that are going to get left out? From a practical perspective any 6-6 P5 will usually be taken before any 6-6 G5 team.

So its probably not an issue.

-----

Now, if you're trying to figure out who gets left out among 6-6 G5 teams, which is most likely scenario.....it currently goes by bowl tie ins and then by bowl committee preference.

I'd rather there be a stated preference mechanism, but boy would the AAC howl over that one, because that would mean that a 6-6 Sun Belt team could bowl while a 6-6 AAC team stays at home.

Its not happening.
11-26-2017 02:31 PM
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 02:18 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 11:51 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  How many 6-6 teams did FBS finally end up with?

14 teams are currently at 6-6 (not including Ole Miss who is ineligible for other reasons). Three more can get to 6-6 next week.

While technically the bowls currently decide who goes, they must follow NCAA rules about who is eligible. So, if there aren't enough 6 win teams to fill all the bowls, they can't just take a 5-7 team because they have a contractual tie in with their conference. They must take them based on their most recent APR scores.

If the contactual tie in isn't sacred for 5-7 teams, I don't see why it should be more sacred for 6-6 teams. If the NCAA can mandate the use of APR scores in case there are too few teams, I don't see why they can't do the same if there are too many.

The alternative will usually mean that P5 schools will get preferential treatment over G5 teams, since they will almost always be able to command more and better tie-ins with the bowls. Why does the system need to be rigged even more in favor of the P5? It's not like they need the extra money more than the G5 conferences do.

Your argument makes no sense. 6-6 teams are straight up bowl eligible without qualification (unlike 5-7 teams), so of course contractual tie-ins take precedent. There is no “rigging” for the P5 - it’s called the free market where parties are free to enter into contracts with whoever that they want. Likewise, sponsors and TV networks pay more for P5 vs. P5 bowl games... and that’s just simply the market speaking. Frankly, I think even provisional 5-7 teams should be slotted by contract first (as such contracts are the only reasons why the bowls exist in the first place), but I understand the NCAA’s rationale and support at least throwing a bone in pretending to care about academics at a base level. Whether P5 conferences “need” more extra money has nothing to do with it (just as LeBron James doesn’t “need” more extra money than the 12th man on the Cavs). Conferences should be paid what they’re worth in the marketplace, and if that means that even the worst Big Ten or SEC bowl bid is worth more than the best G5 bowl bid, then so be it. That’s the bowl market reality.
11-26-2017 03:56 PM
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Post: #15
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 01:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 09:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?

Eliminate all of those who have just lost their head coach. I suggest this for two reasons. 1. Any school who has just lost their head coach (regardless of record) seldom plays a great bowl game. 2. We need for the sake of the sport to eliminate coaches leaving before the bowls and playoffs are played. This method may eliminate both issues.

My version has been fired their coach regardless of record. If you thought it was such a bad year you need to change coaches, you need to stay home.
11-26-2017 03:57 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 03:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 02:18 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 11:51 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  How many 6-6 teams did FBS finally end up with?

14 teams are currently at 6-6 (not including Ole Miss who is ineligible for other reasons). Three more can get to 6-6 next week.

While technically the bowls currently decide who goes, they must follow NCAA rules about who is eligible. So, if there aren't enough 6 win teams to fill all the bowls, they can't just take a 5-7 team because they have a contractual tie in with their conference. They must take them based on their most recent APR scores.

If the contactual tie in isn't sacred for 5-7 teams, I don't see why it should be more sacred for 6-6 teams. If the NCAA can mandate the use of APR scores in case there are too few teams, I don't see why they can't do the same if there are too many.

The alternative will usually mean that P5 schools will get preferential treatment over G5 teams, since they will almost always be able to command more and better tie-ins with the bowls. Why does the system need to be rigged even more in favor of the P5? It's not like they need the extra money more than the G5 conferences do.

Your argument makes no sense. 6-6 teams are straight up bowl eligible without qualification (unlike 5-7 teams), so of course contractual tie-ins take precedent. There is no “rigging” for the P5 - it’s called the free market where parties are free to enter into contracts with whoever that they want. Likewise, sponsors and TV networks pay more for P5 vs. P5 bowl games... and that’s just simply the market speaking. Frankly, I think even provisional 5-7 teams should be slotted by contract first (as such contracts are the only reasons why the bowls exist in the first place), but I understand the NCAA’s rationale and support at least throwing a bone in pretending to care about academics at a base level. Whether P5 conferences “need” more extra money has nothing to do with it (just as LeBron James doesn’t “need” more extra money than the 12th man on the Cavs). Conferences should be paid what they’re worth in the marketplace, and if that means that even the worst Big Ten or SEC bowl bid is worth more than the best G5 bowl bid, then so be it. That’s the bowl market reality.

My point is basically that they should treat eligibility the same whatever cutoff they choose. If you say that the contractual arrangements should prevail, then they should prevail the same way for 5-7 teams as 6-6 ones. 5-7 is no more or less arbitrary than 6-6 is. If you are pretending to care about academics at one level of wins, pretend to care at the other level.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2017 04:33 PM by ken d.)
11-26-2017 04:32 PM
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Post: #17
RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 09:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  My vote is to use the same criterion as is used to decide which 5-7 teams get in - APR score. What do you think?
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
I rather see a 7-5 G5 team gets a bowl slot over a 6-6 lousy P5 team.

We already have seen too many good G5 teams get left out of bowl games with the better records for schools that are P5 that went 6-6 and loses to an FCS team.
11-26-2017 05:26 PM
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 04:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  My point is basically that they should treat eligibility the same whatever cutoff they choose. If you say that the contractual arrangements should prevail, then they should prevail the same way for 5-7 teams as 6-6 ones. 5-7 is no more or less arbitrary than 6-6 is. If you are pretending to care about academics at one level of wins, pretend to care at the other level.

First, since your agenda is to violate contracts so as to benefit the G5, be careful what you wish for. You may be assuming that G5 tend to have higher APR than P5, and I don't see why that would be the case. E.g., I bet the PAC, B1G, and ACC have higher academic standards than all G5 conferences, even though occasionally you have a football mercenary school like FSU with a terrible APR. Your rule could involve G5 teams losing out on bowls their conferences are contracted to in favor of P5 with higher APR. E.g., I could easily envision a 6-6 LA-Tech losing out on the New Orleans bowl to a 6-6 Texas that has a higher APR with the Big 12 having filled all its slots already.

Second, if you think all cutoffs are "arbitrary", why stop at 6-6? Why not just carry your logic all the way through to 12-0, eliminating all conference contracts with bowls in favor of APR determining everything?

Of course, bowls would raise hell because they sign contracts for a reason, they have determined that a particular conference has schools that the bowl believes are attractive in terms of traveling fan base and publicity.

The line between 6-6 and 5-7 has a logical basis: It's the difference between a losing record and a non-losing record. Contracts should be honored to the extent possible, and that's a reasonable place to draw the line.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2017 06:44 PM by quo vadis.)
11-26-2017 06:42 PM
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RE: How should the NCAA decide which 6-6 teams get left out?
(11-26-2017 06:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-26-2017 04:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  My point is basically that they should treat eligibility the same whatever cutoff they choose. If you say that the contractual arrangements should prevail, then they should prevail the same way for 5-7 teams as 6-6 ones. 5-7 is no more or less arbitrary than 6-6 is. If you are pretending to care about academics at one level of wins, pretend to care at the other level.

First, since your agenda is to violate contracts so as to benefit the G5, be careful what you wish for. You may be assuming that G5 tend to have higher APR than P5, and I don't see why that would be the case. E.g., I bet the PAC, B1G, and ACC have higher academic standards than all G5 conferences, even though occasionally you have a football mercenary school like FSU with a terrible APR. Your rule could involve G5 teams losing out on bowls their conferences are contracted to in favor of P5 with higher APR. E.g., I could easily envision a 6-6 LA-Tech losing out on the New Orleans bowl to a 6-6 Texas that has a higher APR with the Big 12 having filled all its slots already.

Second, if you think all cutoffs are "arbitrary", why stop at 6-6? Why not just carry your logic all the way through to 12-0, eliminating all conference contracts with bowls in favor of APR determining everything?

Of course, bowls would raise hell because they sign contracts for a reason, they have determined that a particular conference has schools that the bowl believes are attractive in terms of traveling fan base and publicity.

The line between 6-6 and 5-7 has a logical basis: It's the difference between a losing record and a non-losing record. Contracts should be honored to the extent possible, and that's a reasonable place to draw the line.
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