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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Defense
What age group do you have Hoops?
12-10-2017 12:59 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Defense
(12-10-2017 12:59 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  What age group do you have Hoops?

11-12. Been with that age for 8 years now. You coach your son/sons right?
12-10-2017 01:09 PM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Defense
Yes, I coach my youngest son and he's 10 years old. Yea, trapping can get you some good points if you have the guys to do it like you're saying. He plays in your age group so I was just wondering. I'm thinking about running a double pick near the elbow and just start letting him read it. You can have one screener wait and cut to the hole, have the other go out a bit for a jumper/outlet and have your PG (my son) take a runner or get deeper to the hole, if he can. I'm telling you, that runner is $ for this age group and has to be part of your PG's game. It's critical!
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 02:03 PM by billthebighawksfan.)
12-10-2017 01:54 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #24
RE: Defense
Look, I get that I might be overly optimistic here, but I'm still going to preach patience. If Coach McGrath wants this team playing man-to-man in the long run, he needs to be able to have the latitude to do that. We can hope he mixes in some zone, but not at the expense of his long-term vision.

Even I didn't expect this season to be nearly this rough. We have offensive firepower, and knew we did heading into the season. We also knew our defensive efficiency in the half-court was rough under Keatts. But even knowing this, it would have been hard to imagine the "you have to get worse before you get better" concept would put us in the basement of the NCAA in points allowed.

And yes, I would hope Coach McGrath is willing to be flexible to a point, installing some traps and zones where possible. But again, Coach McGrath's vision extends beyond this season. We need to be able to run man-to-man, and perform well at it. You probably can't play great zone consistently if you're unable to play man-to-man. This is "gut check time" for the team, and perhaps the players themselves need to have some team meetings and decide if the defensive intensity will improve. Because McGrath just doesn't seem likely to scrap his plans and try to be Jim Boeheim just 2 months into his tenure. At least for this season, this is the kind of defense we're going to play; the offseason will be the time to make major changes to the scheme, if needed.

Let's give it some time. It cannot be overstated that McGrath, while walking into a potentially great situation in the long run, was always going to take his lumps this year. No Ingram, Flemmings, or Bryce. A rushed first recruiting class. Installing a brand new coaching staff with a brand new system. None of that is a recipe for success.

But you already have guys here grumbling about the hire. That's lunacy, in my mind. I get that some were against the hire from the start. But you're going to have to simply deal with it for at least a few years. And I imagine that if McGrath ends up having a successful tenure here, it'll make for some fun "thread bumps" down the road.
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2017 09:04 AM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-11-2017 09:01 AM
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70shawk Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Defense
UNCW is #349 out of #351 Division I teams is ppg allowed.

So because you want to eventually play man-to-man, you would rather lose games now than utilize a defense that you eventually don't want to rely upon? By definition, it's one of the worst defensive game plans in America.

Sigh. I've got a notion how that kind of thinking is going to work out....
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2017 02:31 PM by 70shawk.)
12-11-2017 02:22 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Defense
As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
12-11-2017 07:07 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #27
RE: Defense
(12-11-2017 02:22 PM)70shawk Wrote:  UNCW is #349 out of #351 Division I teams is ppg allowed.

So because you want to eventually play man-to-man, you would rather lose games now than utilize a defense that you eventually don't want to rely upon? By definition, it's one of the worst defensive game plans in America.

Sigh. I've got a notion how that kind of thinking is going to work out....

(12-11-2017 07:07 PM)82hawk Wrote:  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Yes, I would rather play man-to-man if it matches the long-term vision of the team, even at the expense of short-term gains.

Our W-L record matters less this season than it does in future seasons. We knew this was going to be a rough season without Flemmings, Ingram, Bryce, and a replacement recruiting class. Hell, Nick Powell is 9th on the team in minutes. That's not exactly a great sign. This year is about Coach McGrath establishing himself and trying to get the guys to buy in to the system.

If the team can't play man-to-man, they can't play zone much better either. Defense is impacted far more by intensity, effort and ability than scheme. How is it fair to put all of the blame on the "gameplan" and thus, the coach?

We need to learn to play tough halfcourt D one way or the other. Playing zone to try to mask our weaknesses won't work in the long-term.
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2017 11:26 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-11-2017 11:18 PM
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70shawk Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Defense
(12-11-2017 11:18 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:22 PM)70shawk Wrote:  UNCW is #349 out of #351 Division I teams is ppg allowed.

So because you want to eventually play man-to-man, you would rather lose games now than utilize a defense that you eventually don't want to rely upon? By definition, it's one of the worst defensive game plans in America.

Sigh. I've got a notion how that kind of thinking is going to work out....

(12-11-2017 07:07 PM)82hawk Wrote:  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Yes, I would rather play man-to-man if it matches the long-term vision of the team, even at the expense of short-term gains.

Our W-L record matters less this season than it does in future seasons. We knew this was going to be a rough season without Flemmings, Ingram, Bryce, and a replacement recruiting class. Hell, Nick Powell is 9th on the team in minutes. That's not exactly a great sign. This year is about Coach McGrath establishing himself and trying to get the guys to buy in to the system.

If the team can't play man-to-man, they can't play zone much better either. Defense is impacted far more by intensity, effort and ability than scheme. How is it fair to put all of the blame on the "gameplan" and thus, the coach?

We need to learn to play tough halfcourt D one way or the other. Playing zone to try to mask our weaknesses won't work in the long-term.

Holy smoke, we are the 3rd worst team defensive team in America.

In the crime fighting business , that's what we call a 'clue'.

Something is wrong with the "plan"....
12-12-2017 01:41 AM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Defense
(12-11-2017 11:18 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:22 PM)70shawk Wrote:  UNCW is #349 out of #351 Division I teams is ppg allowed.

So because you want to eventually play man-to-man, you would rather lose games now than utilize a defense that you eventually don't want to rely upon? By definition, it's one of the worst defensive game plans in America.

Sigh. I've got a notion how that kind of thinking is going to work out....

(12-11-2017 07:07 PM)82hawk Wrote:  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Yes, I would rather play man-to-man if it matches the long-term vision of the team, even at the expense of short-term gains.

Our W-L record matters less this season than it does in future seasons. We knew this was going to be a rough season without Flemmings, Ingram, Bryce, and a replacement recruiting class. Hell, Nick Powell is 9th on the team in minutes. That's not exactly a great sign. This year is about Coach McGrath establishing himself and trying to get the guys to buy in to the system.

If the team can't play man-to-man, they can't play zone much better either. Defense is impacted far more by intensity, effort and ability than scheme. How is it fair to put all of the blame on the "gameplan" and thus, the coach?

We need to learn to play tough halfcourt D one way or the other. Playing zone to try to mask our weaknesses won't work in the long-term.


Sorry, that makes no sense. If what you say is true, why does anyone play zone...or press...or do anything different than play man? Yes, zone masks weaknesses in a roster...and? That's what coaching literally IS. Adjusting and changing schemes on offense and defense to WIN GAMES. If the answer is always just "play harder", then it makes no difference who the coach is, which means it is NEVER the coaches responsibility if teams lose...or win...or improve...or get worse because the scheme implemented by the coach doesn't matter.

And, yes, our team COULD play man better than zone...but how could we know? Also, zone gives a lot of teams problems. It's a good defense that helps win games. Quite frankly, if this team ends up outside of the top 5 of the conference, the head coach will have failed. Our roster is simply too good for those results. And, if we go through the year with these defensive numbers and lose, it will be a direct result of a bad defensive scheme for this team.

I'm not saying we should go to a full time zone defense, just that we should mix up our defenses to help a struggling team get wins and gain confidence.

Winning games is more important than force feeding a losing formula.
12-12-2017 05:51 AM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Defense
(12-11-2017 11:18 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:22 PM)70shawk Wrote:  UNCW is #349 out of #351 Division I teams is ppg allowed.

So because you want to eventually play man-to-man, you would rather lose games now than utilize a defense that you eventually don't want to rely upon? By definition, it's one of the worst defensive game plans in America.

Sigh. I've got a notion how that kind of thinking is going to work out....

(12-11-2017 07:07 PM)82hawk Wrote:  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.


Yes, I would rather play man-to-man if it matches the long-term vision of the team, even at the expense of short-term gains.

Our W-L record matters less this season than it does in future seasons. We knew this was going to be a rough season without Flemmings, Ingram, Bryce, and a replacement recruiting class. Hell, Nick Powell is 9th on the team in minutes. That's not exactly a great sign. This year is about Coach McGrath establishing himself and trying to get the guys to buy in to the system.

If the team can't play man-to-man, they can't play zone much better either. Defense is impacted far more by intensity, effort and ability than scheme. How is it fair to put all of the blame on the "gameplan" and thus, the coach?

We need to learn to play tough halfcourt D one way or the other. Playing zone to try to mask our weaknesses won't work in the long-term.


Sorry, that makes no sense. If what you say is true, why does anyone play zone...or press...or do anything different than play man? Yes, zone masks weaknesses in a roster...and? That's what coaching literally IS. Adjusting and changing schemes on offense and defense to WIN GAMES. If the answer is always just "play harder", then it makes no difference who the coach is, which means it is NEVER the coaches responsibility if teams lose...or win...or improve...or get worse because the scheme implemented by the coach doesn't matter.

And, yes, our team COULD play man better than zone...but how could we know? Also, zone gives a lot of teams problems. It's a good defense that helps win games. Quite frankly, if this team ends up outside of the top 5 of the conference, the head coach will have failed. Our roster is simply too good for those results. And, if we go through the year with these defensive numbers and lose, it will be a direct result of a bad defensive scheme for this team.

I'm not saying we should go to a full time zone defense, just that we should mix up our defenses to help a struggling team get wins and gain confidence.

Winning games is more important than force feeding a losing formula.
12-12-2017 05:51 AM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Defense
He can mix in both. If you don't guard in games, it's hard to simulate things in practice.

It looks like they need to help better. That comes from being connected and seeing the ball.Some guys are better defenders than others. And some have more BB IQ than others. Bryan gets a hard time but defends pretty well. Cacok does well for the most part. Actually Gary looked good against LSU-Estime has had some good moments. Gary was right there denying that back-cut and it caused a TO plus I saw him steal it-he plays hard. There needs to be more effort like that collectively across the team. Richmond and Taylor could both be really good defenders, in theory, and are at times. Talley generally does a good job but even the "great one" took a poor angle on a close out and was part of the "parachuter's club" against that good guard and he simply shot faked and hit a floater. Fornes has gotten better than last year.

They will be okay. Give them some time. It's a good group of young men that will take a little time to gel on both ends.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 08:26 AM by billthebighawksfan.)
12-12-2017 08:22 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #32
RE: Defense
Again, why is this a scheme problem? We were a bad halfcourt defense under Keatts, and it bit us badly when we faced strong competition. We're still a bad halfcourt defense. And we simply don't have the horses this year on top of that. Coach McGrath can't scheme his way out of that. Even if he completely shifted the program back towards a Keatts defense tomorrow, it wouldn't help us take a significant step forward. Saying things like "we're a zone/press away from being a good team" just isn't accurate, in my eyes. We're a zone/press away from moving from the 6th-8th best CAA team to the 5th-7th. That's about it.

I've re-calibrated my expectations for this season. If we don't want this board to be completely depressing I recommend considering doing the same. Otherwise we'll just be beating that dead horse week after week. That doesn't sound like a very good use of our time, really.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 10:26 AM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-12-2017 10:18 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 10:18 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Again, why is this a scheme problem? We were a bad halfcourt defense under Keatts, and it bit us badly when we faced strong competition. We're still a bad halfcourt defense. And we simply don't have the horses this year on top of that. Coach McGrath can't scheme his way out of that. Even if he completely shifted the program back towards a Keatts defense tomorrow, it wouldn't help us take a significant step forward. Saying things like "we're a zone/press away from being a good team" just isn't accurate, in my eyes. We're a zone/press away from moving from the 6th-8th best CAA team to the 5th-7th. That's about it.

I've re-calibrated my expectations for this season. If we don't want this board to be completely depressing I recommend considering doing the same. Otherwise we'll just be beating that dead horse week after week. That doesn't sound like a very good use of our time, really.
Keatts Schemed his way out of us being a bad half court D team by pressing and causing turnovers. Scheme can Certainly play a large part in playing to your teams strengths. Good coaches adjust
12-12-2017 10:44 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #34
RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 10:44 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  Keatts Schemed his way out of us being a bad half court D team by pressing and causing turnovers. Scheme can Certainly play a large part in playing to your teams strengths. Good coaches adjust

Scheme masked our flaws, but the flaws were still there. How can we expect a team who never learned to play any semblance of halfcourt D to suddenly learn how to do it now?

And why does Coach McGrath have to feel the need to basically tell his team "Look, we're not a good defensive team and never will be, so let's mask our flaws with a scheme that will only take us so far." Because we the fans tell him he needs to do it?
These guys have to LEARN to become a strong defensive unit. The only way to do it is by DOING it.

I'd much rather McGrath be his own man. People who are already dismissing him and saying he has no vision for the future of the team are promoting a viewpoint they have no clue about. If McGrath has no plan, or has a bad plan, that's not something we can determine in December of his first season. That's absurd.

Keatts made us relevant again. But now we want to take our program to an even higher level. Sometimes, you have to get worse first and take your lumps before you can do that.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 11:32 AM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-12-2017 11:29 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Defense
All teams have flaws 08. Good coaches mask them, while working to improve what needs to be fixed in the background. Sorry boss, i think you are alone on an island on this topic on the board.
12-12-2017 11:32 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #36
RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 11:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  All teams have flaws 08. Good coaches mask them, while working to improve what needs to be fixed in the background. Sorry boss, i think you are alone on an island on this topic on the board.

No, the people who agree with me are keeping quiet or don't post here. I'm a vocal minority, but not alone.
12-12-2017 11:35 AM
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Seahawkhoops Online
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Post: #37
RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 11:35 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  All teams have flaws 08. Good coaches mask them, while working to improve what needs to be fixed in the background. Sorry boss, i think you are alone on an island on this topic on the board.

No, the people who agree with me are keeping quiet or don't post here. I'm a vocal minority, but not alone.
Haha. On the board, you are.

I can tell you one thing, if i try something with my boys this weekend and it doesn't work, if i determine it won't work with my squad, i'll try something else. That's how it works. Like many others here, i think if we played zone and/or pressed we'd be hanging more W's than we are posting the worst D numbers in the country.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results
12-12-2017 11:38 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #38
RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 11:38 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

Not accurate.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-...nsanity-is


What you call insanity by McGrath, I'll call perseverance.


Perseveration (a form of insanity): the pathological, persistent repetition of a word, gesture, or act.

Perseverance: steady persistence in a course of action in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 01:32 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-12-2017 01:30 PM
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Seahawkhoops Online
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Post: #39
RE: Defense
LOL you can post any definition you want, my statement is widely known
12-12-2017 01:38 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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RE: Defense
(12-12-2017 01:38 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  LOL you can post any definition you want, my statement is widely known

It's widely used. Doesn't mean it's accurate. No psychologist worth his/her salt agrees with the definition, and it can actually be dangerous to subscribe to it. Read the article.

This is a board with college-educated people so it's always worthwhile to learn something that challenges your perceptions. And in this case, it's applicable and relevant. I've heard it said by 2-3 different people on this very board in the last few days.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2017 01:42 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
12-12-2017 01:40 PM
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