Being down to eight members again, really seven full DI's for the next four years, what is the Atlantic Sun to do?

Another DII move up doesn't fill the need for five years.

Lipscomb wants the OVC just based on travel.

NJIT wants the NEC or the America East just based on travel expense.

Some have suggested Bethune-Cookman and FAMU just based on geography. That would work but there's no evidence that there is mutual interest.

I have suggested that the Atlantic Sun become an agglomeration of FBS wannabes.

First take Jax St and E Kentucky. The OVC almost has to respond by taking Lipscomb off the A Sun's hands

Get JMU and Delaware aboard. Then get Stony Brook and Albany aboard. NJIT would be gone to the America East instantly.

Invite Liberty next. Maybe Jacksonvile and Stetson can be lured into the Big South. Get FAMU if they are still interested in FBS.

With those six FCS schools and Kennesaw St, ask for a waiver as the FBS scheduling needs won't be nearly as $ intimidating.

Later invite UMass for FB only and you have an eastern seaboard FBS conference with almost the same footprint as the ACC.

Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

(11-17-2017 05:20 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

The reason the Atlantic Sun almost HAS to expand is the requirement to have seven full D-I schools. You want at least 8 so you have a cushion in case somebody moves. A D-II callup doesn't do you any good for five years. (I'm relying on NoDak's number, it might be a different number of years. Point is it's a long time to have your rear end exposed.)

Just to blow NoDak's mind--it would be much easier for the Powers That Be, who have demonstrated over time a strong preference against FBS and Division I expansion, to drop the requirement from seven to six for existing conferences. Then the WAC and Atlantic Sun have no incentive to offer upgrades.

That could even be coupled with a rule lengthening the FBS transition period in a minor way to completely prevent the sort of stair-step group moveup that is sometimes suggested, so that new FBS programs wouldn't count as full FBS opponents for say five years.

(11-17-2017 08:09 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 05:20 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

The reason the Atlantic Sun almost HAS to expand is the requirement to have seven full D-I schools. You want at least 8 so you have a cushion in case somebody moves. A D-II callup doesn't do you any good for five years. (I'm relying on NoDak's number, it might be a different number of years. Point is it's a long time to have your rear end exposed.)

Just to blow NoDak's mind--it would be much easier for the Powers That Be, who have demonstrated over time a strong preference against FBS and Division I expansion, to drop the requirement from seven to six for existing conferences. Then the WAC and Atlantic Sun have no incentive to offer upgrades.

That could even be coupled with a rule lengthening the FBS transition period in a minor way to completely prevent the sort of stair-step group moveup that is sometimes suggested, so that new FBS programs wouldn't count as full FBS opponents for say five years.

They don't want more conferences in basketball. They are more likely to increase the number of schools than decrease (not that that is likely). The Atlantic Sun, Summit, WAC and Ivy are the only 8 team leagues out there.

(11-17-2017 08:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 08:09 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 05:20 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

The reason the Atlantic Sun almost HAS to expand is the requirement to have seven full D-I schools. You want at least 8 so you have a cushion in case somebody moves. A D-II callup doesn't do you any good for five years. (I'm relying on NoDak's number, it might be a different number of years. Point is it's a long time to have your rear end exposed.)

Just to blow NoDak's mind--it would be much easier for the Powers That Be, who have demonstrated over time a strong preference against FBS and Division I expansion, to drop the requirement from seven to six for existing conferences. Then the WAC and Atlantic Sun have no incentive to offer upgrades.

That could even be coupled with a rule lengthening the FBS transition period in a minor way to completely prevent the sort of stair-step group moveup that is sometimes suggested, so that new FBS programs wouldn't count as full FBS opponents for say five years.

They don't want more conferences in basketball. They are more likely to increase the number of schools than decrease (not that that is likely). The Atlantic Sun, Summit, WAC and Ivy are the only 8 team leagues out there.

They don't want more conferences, this is true. But it's nearly impossible to start a new conference anyway. (Unless you're royalty fallen on hard luck like the Big East).

In the case of the WAC, they showed a strong reluctance to let rules kill an existing conference. So I suspect that they'd do the same for the Atlantic Sun, re-shuffling the requirements to let the A-Sun (or the WAC if they lose one or two) live, rather than create 5-6 homeless Division I Independents.

They could also tweak the NCAA tournament credits formula, on the lines of the CFP allocation, so that if you have fewer than 10 teams, you lose 10% for 9 and 20% for 8 and 30% for 7 and 40% for 6.

I would think power schools would want contraction, opens up more at-large berths

Autobid credits should go to every D1 school at a set amount. That would remove the incentive to stay small to split first round money fewer ways. Hopefully this would lead to fewer conferences.

There are a few things the A-Sun can do:

Florida A&M and Bethune Cookman--perks for them are a conference with 6 Florida teams and they could play football in the Big South and still play other HBCUs OOC. It also gets them away from MEAC schools who are poor financial shape.

Aspiring FBS schools--bring over Liberty who will already be an FBS Indy. Kennesaw St is already there and has aspirations. EKU and Jacksonville St would be other key grabs. Fill out the rest with affiliates. Note, that I think this has too many working parts for the A-Sun to pull off.

(11-17-2017 01:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  There are a few things the A-Sun can do:

Florida A&M and Bethune Cookman--perks for them are a conference with 6 Florida teams and they could play football in the Big South and still play other HBCUs OOC. It also gets them away from MEAC schools who are poor financial shape.

Aspiring FBS schools--bring over Liberty who will already be an FBS Indy. Kennesaw St is already there and has aspirations. EKU and Jacksonville St would be other key grabs. Fill out the rest with affiliates. Note, that I think this has too many working parts for the A-Sun to pull off.

Probably be best if the WAC, Summit and Atlantic Sun split up their existing 24 schools into two conferences. Right now, all 3 are unstable and at risk of dissolution with just a couple defections. Chicago St. is teetering in the WAC.

(11-17-2017 08:09 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 05:20 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

The reason the Atlantic Sun almost HAS to expand is the requirement to have seven full D-I schools. You want at least 8 so you have a cushion in case somebody moves. A D-II callup doesn't do you any good for five years. (I'm relying on NoDak's number, it might be a different number of years. Point is it's a long time to have your rear end exposed.)

Just to blow NoDak's mind--it would be much easier for the Powers That Be, who have demonstrated over time a strong preference against FBS and Division I expansion, to drop the requirement from seven to six for existing conferences. Then the WAC and Atlantic Sun have no incentive to offer upgrades.

That could even be coupled with a rule lengthening the FBS transition period in a minor way to completely prevent the sort of stair-step group moveup that is sometimes suggested, so that new FBS programs wouldn't count as full FBS opponents for say five years.

They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning. Augusta was a former D1 school. So was Tampa, Washburn, West Texas A&M, Cal. State-L.A., and so forth. So, Augusta could be a key to get that waiver right now. Bringing Washburn up to the Summit might lure UMKC back to the Summit. Cal. State-L.A. and West Texas A&M could help the WAC from not falling below the numbers when Chicago State leaves. Tampa could also help as a key as well.

(11-17-2017 01:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 01:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  There are a few things the A-Sun can do:

Florida A&M and Bethune Cookman--perks for them are a conference with 6 Florida teams and they could play football in the Big South and still play other HBCUs OOC. It also gets them away from MEAC schools who are poor financial shape.

Aspiring FBS schools--bring over Liberty who will already be an FBS Indy. Kennesaw St is already there and has aspirations. EKU and Jacksonville St would be other key grabs. Fill out the rest with affiliates. Note, that I think this has too many working parts for the A-Sun to pull off.

Probably be best if the WAC, Summit and Atlantic Sun split up their existing 24 schools into two conferences. Right now, all 3 are unstable and at risk of dissolution with just a couple defections. Chicago St. is teetering in the WAC.

Don't see that being viable because it basically means the Summit schools dividing themselves up between the WAC and ASun and all winding up with travels headaches much worse than what they previously had. I actually think the Summit's stabilized itself a bit by getting all four Dakotas under one roof and establishing some geographic gravity. Pure speculation on my part, but if I were them I'd be trying to get Minnesota St to move up, possibly with St Cloud State in tow, and just plant your flag in the upper plains enough that it becomes a viable long-term home for those six plus UNO.

(11-17-2017 02:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 08:09 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 05:20 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  Columbus St., GRU-Augusta, Nova Southeastern, W.Georgia were all D-II schools considering D-I over the last 10 years in the footprint.

The reason the Atlantic Sun almost HAS to expand is the requirement to have seven full D-I schools. You want at least 8 so you have a cushion in case somebody moves. A D-II callup doesn't do you any good for five years. (I'm relying on NoDak's number, it might be a different number of years. Point is it's a long time to have your rear end exposed.)

Just to blow NoDak's mind--it would be much easier for the Powers That Be, who have demonstrated over time a strong preference against FBS and Division I expansion, to drop the requirement from seven to six for existing conferences. Then the WAC and Atlantic Sun have no incentive to offer upgrades.

That could even be coupled with a rule lengthening the FBS transition period in a minor way to completely prevent the sort of stair-step group moveup that is sometimes suggested, so that new FBS programs wouldn't count as full FBS opponents for say five years.

They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning. Augusta was a former D1 school. So was Tampa, Washburn, West Texas A&M, Cal. State-L.A., and so forth. So, Augusta could be a key to get that waiver right now. Bringing Washburn up to the Summit might lure UMKC back to the Summit. Cal. State-L.A. and West Texas A&M could help the WAC from not falling below the numbers when Chicago State leaves. Tampa could also help as a key as well.

Stop. You want a waiver for everything, why should the NCAA have a rule book if you can just get a waiver to do anything you want. It's not going to happen.

(11-17-2017 02:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning.

They could, but why would they?

1. Why would the schools and conferences who have power and influence now make a decision to favor University of Tampa over St Petersburg University? Nobody cares that Tampa used to be Division I.

2. They keep making rules and decisions that make it HARDER to move up, not EASIER.

(11-17-2017 05:47 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 02:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning.

They could, but why would they?

1. Why would the schools and conferences who have power and influence now make a decision to favor University of Tampa over St Petersburg University? Nobody cares that Tampa used to be Division I.

2. They keep making rules and decisions that make it HARDER to move up, not EASIER.

Exactly correct. No one cares about past status. No one cares that West Texas A&M used to play at the highest level, in a conference with current P5 schools. It is a nice historical fact, but ZERO relevance today

(11-17-2017 05:47 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 02:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning.

They could, but why would they?

1. Why would the schools and conferences who have power and influence now make a decision to favor University of Tampa over St Petersburg University? Nobody cares that Tampa used to be Division I.

2. They keep making rules and decisions that make it HARDER to move up, not EASIER.

It depends. They could give a waiver to Augusta. Why? Easy access to the professional golf course there. D1 could hold the national championship tournament there.
West Texas A&M could be there for the WAC. It could help keep having many loose schools as Independents when conferences get raided.
Washburn could be a glue for Summit, and be a travel partner for UMKC.

I am not saying Tampa could get a call up since we already have USF in the area. Just saying that some of these former D1 schools can be a glue to help keep conferences stable. I rather have West Texas State in the WAc than I do for Chicago State who should move on.

Why can't D1 hold their national championship there now?

(11-17-2017 07:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 05:47 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-17-2017 02:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  They could do a waiver for schools who were formerly at D1 level for transitioning.

They could, but why would they?

1. Why would the schools and conferences who have power and influence now make a decision to favor University of Tampa over St Petersburg University? Nobody cares that Tampa used to be Division I.

2. They keep making rules and decisions that make it HARDER to move up, not EASIER.

It depends. They could give a waiver to Augusta. Why? Easy access to the professional golf course there. D1 could hold the national championship tournament there.

They could already do that. If the NCAA golf people and Augusta National wanted to make a deal, they would.

Quote:West Texas A&M could be there for the WAC. It could help keep having many loose schools as Independents when conferences get raided.

The WAC might bring in another D-II school to get to 10.

Quote:Washburn could be a glue for Summit, and be a travel partner for UMKC.

I am not saying Tampa could get a call up since we already have USF in the area. Just saying that some of these former D1 schools can be a glue to help keep conferences stable. I rather have West Texas State in the WAc than I do for Chicago State who should move on.

It's not a choice between West Texas State and Chicago State. Chicago State seems to have bottomed out at about 2500, and they haven't shut down the school yet. If there is a choice, it's between West Texas State and every other non-Division I school west of the Mississippi you've been pimping for Division I. And West Texas State being in the Border Conference in the 1950s (I may be wrong about this, I *just* *don't* *care*) doesn't give them any real advantage over Texas A&M--El Dorado or whoever.

If the WAC has a choice about it, I don’t see them adding anyone in the Central Time Zone ever again. Cal Baptist replaces Chicago State in 2018, Azusa Pacific replaces UMKC in 2022, and UTRGV gets replaced in 2026.

(11-17-2017 07:40 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  If the WAC has a choice about it, I don’t see them adding anyone in the Central Time Zone ever again. Cal Baptist replaces Chicago State in 2018, Azusa Pacific replaces UMKC in 2022, and UTRGV gets replaced in 2026.

Chicago State seems to have a five-year contract with the WAC, which they've not fulfilled their end of, so the WAC could probably boot Chicago State. But how exactly are they going to get rid of UMKC and UTRGV? Especially on the WAC's timetable?

(11-17-2017 07:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Chicago State seems to have a five-year contract with the WAC, which they've not fulfilled their end of, so the WAC could probably boot Chicago State. But how exactly are they going to get rid of UMKC and UTRGV? Especially on the WAC's timetable?

UMKC going back to the Summit isn't hard to imagine - that might happen regardless of how the WAC feels about it. UTRGV is trickier - obviously they'd prefer an invite to a Texas-based conference, but that seems unlikely. I wonder if the Atlantic Sun might give them a look and if UTRGV might actually consider it to avoid some of the headaches that west coast travel poses.