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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #21
RE: baseball hall of fame
Do a reverse order lookup of Hall of Fame ERA. Guess who's number 1? And by a large margin over anyone who's pitched in the last half a century.

03-lmfao
12-11-2017 01:56 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Do a reverse order lookup of Hall of Fame ERA. Guess who's number 1? And by a large margin over anyone who's pitched in the last half a century.

03-lmfao

but he was the best pitcher of a decade. Sorry but 100% understand why he's going to be in the Hall of Fame.
12-11-2017 02:14 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-11-2017 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Do a reverse order lookup of Hall of Fame ERA. Guess who's number 1? And by a large margin over anyone who's pitched in the last half a century.

03-lmfao

but he was the best pitcher of a decade. Sorry but 100% understand why he's going to be in the Hall of Fame.

That's FIP-dependent fWAR. By bWAR he's 12th. Not remotely close to best. Was he top 10 in anything besides starts in the 80s?
12-11-2017 03:14 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-11-2017 03:14 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Do a reverse order lookup of Hall of Fame ERA. Guess who's number 1? And by a large margin over anyone who's pitched in the last half a century.

03-lmfao

but he was the best pitcher of a decade. Sorry but 100% understand why he's going to be in the Hall of Fame.

That's FIP-dependent fWAR. By bWAR he's 12th. Not remotely close to best. Was he top 10 in anything besides starts in the 80s?
Innings, complete games, wins. Led AL in strikeouts.
12-11-2017 03:23 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-11-2017 03:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 03:14 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:56 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Do a reverse order lookup of Hall of Fame ERA. Guess who's number 1? And by a large margin over anyone who's pitched in the last half a century.

03-lmfao

but he was the best pitcher of a decade. Sorry but 100% understand why he's going to be in the Hall of Fame.

That's FIP-dependent fWAR. By bWAR he's 12th. Not remotely close to best. Was he top 10 in anything besides starts in the 80s?
Innings, complete games, wins. Led AL in strikeouts.

OK - I was being facetious but let's take a look at those stats. Innings? OK, durability, consistency but hardly a quality stat. Complete games? Same thing really. Possibly a measure of quality but not significantly so. Wins? Meh - team stat. Strikeouts! OK, there's something, but wait...it's total Ks, so again while somewhat a "quality" stat it's also a durability stat. His K/9 during the 80s? 5.8! Good enough for 51st best of the 80s (25th in AL). Woo hoo!

I'm just not seeing it. FIP gets him that high fWAR, and as far as I can tell it's because he had a lot of Ks (as much a function of durability as skill when looking at K/9). Very good pitcher and if I was a Tigers fan I'd be happy to have had him. Not the best pitcher of the 80s. Not worthy of Hall of Fame.
But he's certainly not the first guy in who didn't really deserve it.
12-11-2017 03:53 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: baseball hall of fame
he was the best AL pitcher of the 80's. bar none.

I just think it's so comical the absolute outrage that he got in. And the fact that you have advanced metrics folks using ERA as a reason. that's just LOL funny.
12-11-2017 04:06 PM
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Lush Offline
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Post: #27
RE: baseball hall of fame
he was the best pitcher in the 80's, so what. maybe that decade sucked for pitching. and then throw in alan trammell. it's getting pretty ridiculous
12-11-2017 04:07 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #28
RE: baseball hall of fame
Everyone gets a trophy...
12-11-2017 10:02 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #29
RE: baseball hall of fame
(11-16-2017 04:01 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  A guy who can churn out hundreds of quality innings is absolutely the kind of guy you want on your team, but does it really make him elite? Is there an endurance number where you go from "really good for a long time" to "elite volume of effort"? Is this where we discuss guys like Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry? (who also had multiple elite level seasons each)

Morris isn't close to those guys.

Phil Niekro's best was better than Morris' best. Niekro is already in the Hall, though, as is Perry.

I wouldn't have voted for Morris, but whatever. There are lesser pitchers already in the Hall.
12-12-2017 11:06 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-11-2017 04:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  he was the best AL pitcher of the 80's. bar none.

cuz fWAR? Come on...
12-12-2017 03:58 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-12-2017 03:58 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 04:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  he was the best AL pitcher of the 80's. bar none.

cuz fWAR? Come on...

What AL pitcher for the entire decade was better?
12-12-2017 04:04 PM
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #32
baseball hall of fame
Morris is so over rated, he was good not an all time elite pitcher, plus he was accused of sexual harassment and worst of all he went to BYU. Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddox, and Nolan Ryan were all time elite. Ryan primarily for the K’s and no hitters.


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12-13-2017 11:27 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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Post: #33
RE: baseball hall of fame
You're SERIOUSLY holding sexual harassment, and EVEN WORSE; his college against him?! We don't have to take anything you say seriously ever again!
(This post was last modified: 12-15-2017 10:05 PM by Erictelevision.)
12-13-2017 11:41 PM
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #34
baseball hall of fame
(12-13-2017 11:41 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  You're SERIOUSLY holding sexual harassment, and EVEN WORS ME; his college against him?! We don't have to take anything you say seriously ever again!


Hey Moron, that part about the harassment and BYU was a joke. Sheesh, you buy them books and all they do is look at the pictures.


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12-13-2017 11:46 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #35
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-12-2017 04:04 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 03:58 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 04:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  he was the best AL pitcher of the 80's. bar none.

cuz fWAR? Come on...

What AL pitcher for the entire decade was better?

First, we need to address your premise: That the best pitcher, from one league, for some arbitrary 10 year period necessarily belongs in the HoF. I reject that. It is perfectly plausible that NO AL pitcher from a given time period belongs. The reason baseball stats are so important is because they ARE generally comparable across eras, and it is ok to say that a given pitcher doesn't have HOF stats even though he may have been one of the best over some cherry-picked duration. But if you want to make an argument that the 80s AL was particularly hitter-friendly and therefore a higher ERA is ok, I'm ready to listen to your sales pitch.

That said, Morris certainly wasn't dominant. Successful? Absolutely! According to bWAR, here are the top 12 pitchers of the 80s:
Stieb 45.2
Welch 35.1
Valenzuela 34.8
Blyleven 34
Hershiser 32.8
Clemens 32.3
Ryan 30.8
Gooden 30.2
Tudor 29.7
Saberhagen 29.0
Hough 28.7
Morris 27.9

A lot of good pitchers on this list NOT in the HoF. (ETA: and several pitched only a portion of the 80s).

I get that fWAR says differently so let's head back to my first point. Morris's total fWAR is 55.8 (avg of 3.1) but his best 10: only 42.1. How is an average of 4.2, for his very best years, HOF material, unless you can argue that the 1980s AL was some kind of hitters' paradise (which we all know is untrue)?

Why is Morris in when Mussina, Reuschel, Gooden, and Kevin Brown (among others) aren't, with higher fWAR and fewer innings? Saberhagen another interesting example, with virtually same fWAR on 1000 fewer IP than Morris. Try making an argument without saying "cuz 80s".
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2017 02:40 PM by Brookes Owl.)
12-14-2017 01:40 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: baseball hall of fame
first off, I absolutely LOL at you hanging on bWAR when during seasons, you want to use fWAR 100%. that's absolutely rich. I'll remember that next summer when Sale gets off to his normal great start and folks say the Cy Young is locked up again because of bWAR.

The 80's AL had more HOF batters than most every decade. Think about all the 80's.
Eddie Murray and Cal Ripken for Orioles
Wade Boggs and Jim Rice for Red Sox
George Brett for Royals
Kirby Puckett for Twins
Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire 2nd half of decade for A's
Joe Carter for Indians/Blue Jays
Rickey Henderson for A's/Yankees/Blue Jays
Robin Yount, Paul Molitor for Brewers

It was a great decade for AL Batters..... You can't compare Morris with guys like Mussina and Brown because it was a different era.

Also, post season success means something. It's called the Hall of FAME. 10 shutout innings 1991.
12-14-2017 02:43 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: baseball hall of fame
what I think is so funny is folks act like it's the biggest crime ever that Morris got elected. I think someone being half way objective can see why a voter would put him in the hall.

And I would say when you look at the voters- you can kind of see why-George Brett, Rod Carew, Dennis Eckersley, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount as the 6 players...... so 4 of those guys would have faced Morris extensively as batters, and other 2(Eck, Sutton) as pitchers vs them. Also Bobby Cox was in Toronto in that period. Paul Beeston of Toronto as well(not sure of the period).
12-14-2017 04:07 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #38
RE: baseball hall of fame
I supposed you are making a good argument to SOMEONE, but it sure as **** isn't me.

(12-14-2017 02:43 PM)stever20 Wrote:  first off, I absolutely LOL at you hanging on bWAR when during seasons, you want to use fWAR 100%. that's absolutely rich. I'll remember that next summer when Sale gets off to his normal great start and folks say the Cy Young is locked up again because of bWAR.

Hey Sgt Strawman, I can give you multiple examples of me siting both fWAR AND bWAR from this season's thread. In at least one post I acknowledged the disparity! The reason I cite fWAR more often than bWAR is because, as I'm sure you know, fangraphs is just an easier database to manipulate. It's a pain to get data out of BR sometimes. So you get what you can and acknowledge there's some imprecision around calcs like WAR.

And speaking of argumentive fallacies, you get a two-fer on this one, since you really don't even address the bWAR issue - you just attack my cite. So +2 for what amounts to ad hominem!

Quote:The 80's AL had more HOF batters than most every decade. Think about all the 80's.

This is arm waving. You've got to show that offense was SO much more productive in the 80s that an ERA near 4 is HOF-eligible. Tough to do when there are guys with much better looking numbers in a much more offensive era (90s).

Quote:Also, post season success means something. It's called the Hall of FAME. 10 shutout innings 1991.

OK. Hall of Fame performance, but does that make his career?
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2017 06:52 PM by Brookes Owl.)
12-14-2017 06:38 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #39
RE: baseball hall of fame
(12-14-2017 04:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  what I think is so funny is folks act like it's the biggest crime ever that Morris got elected. I think someone being half way objective can see why a voter would put him in the hall.

I'm not one of those guys, but fair point. Maybe being one of the best pitchers of a given era ought to be good enough. I get that some guys still think wins have individual value and think that longevity counts. That career stats might be good enough (I'll bet Sutton is one of those guys - that's how he got in). As I alluded to in another post, maybe there's a point where quality and longevity merge and a player has HOF credentials because, while not dominant, he had good enough quality play for such a long time that you have to let him in. Not sure I'd agree Morris was at that level but I'd listen to the argument.

I completely get WHY Morris got in - I just don't agree. And as I pointed out in an earlier post: He's definitely not the least deserving guy in the Hall.

Can you see the Morris-doesn't-belong argument? Can you be "half way objective" about it?
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2017 06:50 PM by Brookes Owl.)
12-14-2017 06:49 PM
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #40
baseball hall of fame
Who are the least deserving guys in the HOF?

Mine are Don Sutton, Bill Mazeroski, Phil Niekro, and the aforementioned Jack Morris.


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(This post was last modified: 12-14-2017 11:09 PM by Jjoey52.)
12-14-2017 11:08 PM
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