The NFL's ratings were in decline long before the anthem controversy. I would guess that Papa John's pizza sales were also in decline long before this manufactured contrivance. You can only mask losses through pyramid....err, multi-level marketing schemes for so long.

I just thank god I live in a place where I don't have to buy chain pizza because chain pizza SUCKS! That goes for Papa John's Pizza Hut, Domino's - all of it. It's just garbage.

I predict that this whole exploitative faux controversy really sums up where we are as a country very well and it will be used by future historians to clearly illustrate just how badly we had deteriorated as a country.

(11-02-2017 09:47 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:36 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Saw game 6 had a huge audience- down only 5% from last year with 22.2 million viewers. Better audience then all but 4 NFL games so far this year. More viewers than any other non NFL event this calendar year than all but 3 things- Clemson/Alabama, Game 5 of the NBA finals, and Gonzaga/North Carolina.

If baseball continues this renascence will we start seeing more and more guys like Aaron Judge going to baseball instead of football?

I think you'll see it anyway.

Football has several real problems right now. One is Kaper-dick and the PR nightmare that situation has created. Many people (including myself) have gotten so sick of the BS we don't watch the NFL anymore. Packer football used to be must see TV. I stopped watching after game 1 this year and have no intention of going back until they straighten this out. I know others who feel the same way.

The NFL also is dealing with it's concussion/CTE issue. That's not going away anytime soon either.

If you're a premier athlete and have the choice to make more money playing a safer sport or playing in the NFL with non-guaranteed contracts and the chance you'll be drooling into a cup at 40, which way are you going to go?

I think in some ways the NFL has gotten lucky that baseball has been so good that it's taken some of the attention off of the protests. This weekend will be really interesting to watch now that the MLB is over.

I thought it was really interesting what the CEO I believe it was from Papa John's was saying about how much the protests have eaten in to their sales. This is interesting because Papa John's is probably the advertiser associated with the NFL the most of anyone.

I have "boycotted" Papa John's pizza for years. I have done so because I think that:

1) the pizza sucks;

2) the owner seems an ass who treats his employees poorly.


It has nothing at all to do with the NFL in my case.

Same here.

(11-02-2017 09:29 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  IMO, the NFL is being hurt by a couple of issues right now:

1.) Anthem Protests. This is not the main source of lowered ratings, but it certainly does not increase ratings. The continued stance by NFL leadership to "avoid" instituting an official policy regarding the Anthem limits teams and organizations on what they can/cannot do. As a result, we still have this as a hot-bottom issue well-over a year later. I still believe the NFL, unofficially, welcomed the kneeling last year because it was yet another front-page item for the NFL to be showcased for. Unfortunately, the owners and Goodell had no clue it would escalate to where we are now, and with Kaepernick pursuing a collusion case.

2.) No more Favre, no more Manning, Rodgers injury - lack of big name/elite QB's to watch. Obviously, Brady is still playing, but he is nowhere near his level of a few years ago. The Patriots are still winning, but it is much less on the skill of Brady. There are simply no elite QBs that fans need to tune into anymore (Wentz looks like he can be that guy, FWIW). Roethlisberger/Eli Manning/Flacco have all had some pretty awful performances this year.

3.) Lack of elite/dominant teams. This year is truly open for the Super Bowl. Forget about undefeated teams, there is only one team entering this week with just one loss (Eagles). Couple that with the absolutely atrocious Browns and 49ers (Giants and Colts aren't far behind), and there just aren't that many must-see games anymore.

4.) Too much NFL. With the NFL now pretty much going year-round, games on Thursdays, Sundays and Mondays, I think fans are being given too much exposure to the product. This directly ties into the London experiment, which adds a Sunday morning game to the docket, and guarantees that fans - could - be watching as much as 12+ consecutive hours of football on Sundays.

Collectively, I think these are the biggest reasons ratings are down. IMO, it cannot be blamed on any one item without mentioning the others.

Regarding #3, parity would seem to increase the interest in the NFL. More teams having playoff chances would seemingly keep fan interest alive. As far as too much football? Never. Spreading out the weekly schedule gives more workers a chance to watch a game. Everyone does not have the day off on Sunday.

TV ratings were not in decline before this....

look at this-
https://www.si.com/more-sports/2016/01/1...pn-nbc-cbs

As for baseball, their ratings were high because the series featured two large markets who played one of the great World Series of all-time. It's a shame Game 7 was so anti-climactic because most of the rest of the games were absolute classics.

(11-02-2017 12:00 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 09:29 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  IMO, the NFL is being hurt by a couple of issues right now:

1.) Anthem Protests. This is not the main source of lowered ratings, but it certainly does not increase ratings. The continued stance by NFL leadership to "avoid" instituting an official policy regarding the Anthem limits teams and organizations on what they can/cannot do. As a result, we still have this as a hot-bottom issue well-over a year later. I still believe the NFL, unofficially, welcomed the kneeling last year because it was yet another front-page item for the NFL to be showcased for. Unfortunately, the owners and Goodell had no clue it would escalate to where we are now, and with Kaepernick pursuing a collusion case.

2.) No more Favre, no more Manning, Rodgers injury - lack of big name/elite QB's to watch. Obviously, Brady is still playing, but he is nowhere near his level of a few years ago. The Patriots are still winning, but it is much less on the skill of Brady. There are simply no elite QBs that fans need to tune into anymore (Wentz looks like he can be that guy, FWIW). Roethlisberger/Eli Manning/Flacco have all had some pretty awful performances this year.

3.) Lack of elite/dominant teams. This year is truly open for the Super Bowl. Forget about undefeated teams, there is only one team entering this week with just one loss (Eagles). Couple that with the absolutely atrocious Browns and 49ers (Giants and Colts aren't far behind), and there just aren't that many must-see games anymore.

4.) Too much NFL. With the NFL now pretty much going year-round, games on Thursdays, Sundays and Mondays, I think fans are being given too much exposure to the product. This directly ties into the London experiment, which adds a Sunday morning game to the docket, and guarantees that fans - could - be watching as much as 12+ consecutive hours of football on Sundays.

Collectively, I think these are the biggest reasons ratings are down. IMO, it cannot be blamed on any one item without mentioning the others.

Regarding #3, parity would seem to increase the interest in the NFL. More teams having playoff chances would seemingly keep fan interest alive. As far as too much football? Never. Spreading out the weekly schedule gives more workers a chance to watch a game. Everyone does not have the day off on Sunday.

Overexposure is hurting the product.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/overexposur...1509615005

I also agree that the NFL's decision to pursue an entire season of Thursday night games was really greedy and short-sighted. Look, I absolutely LOVE pro football with all my heart. I write about it daily, talk about it daily, dream about it, the whole nine. I love college football too - which compounds the issue. I truly watch an unhealthy amount of it in a given year.

However, even I am like, "Okay that's too much football." My actual alma mater (Ohio) was playing on Tuesday and even I was like, "Really? Tuesday night football?" Nope. Pass. I think I watched, "Elena of Avalor" with my kids instead.

I feel the same way about these Thursday night NFL games. I have no idea what I'll be doing tonight but I am not watching the freaking Buffalo Bills and the New York Jets. It's just too much. The London games are the same - just too much of a good thing.

I think CFB should play on Saturdays and Thursdays and the NFL should play on Sundays and Mondays. Fridays are for the high schools and the other days are for being a good parent/spouse /child/sibling/community member, etc.

The NFL has forgotten the golden rule of always leave the crowd wanting more. If you have a fan base that could consistently fill 80,000 seats, build one that seats 70,000 fans. Create ticket scarcity. If you have five games people want to see, show them three. That's how growth works. The NFL has gotten greedy and I think they are killing the golden goose.

(11-02-2017 12:00 PM)stever20 Wrote:  TV ratings were not in decline before this....

look at this-
https://www.si.com/more-sports/2016/01/1...pn-nbc-cbs

I also think we have to look at NFL ratings (and all sports ratings, for that matter) in the context of the wider TV ratings landscape. To the extent that NFL ratings have decreased over the years, the thing is that ratings for everything else on TV have decreased MUCH MUCH MUCH more. As a result, the relative ratings power of the NFL to the TV networks has actually increased over the past several years compared to everything else. The old ABC Monday Night Football generally drew higher absolute ratings than today's NBC Sunday Night Football, but ABC MNF was usually around #10 to #20 on the rankings of TV shows every week. In contrast, NBC SNF is now usually the #1 or #2 rated show every single week. It's a totally different TV landscape today and the fact that the NFL still has such high ratings in this type of split viewership environment is actually a testament to its power. It would be foolish to dance on the grave of the NFL - its power on the *overall* media and entertainment landscape is honestly as high as ever.

(11-02-2017 09:47 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:36 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Saw game 6 had a huge audience- down only 5% from last year with 22.2 million viewers. Better audience then all but 4 NFL games so far this year. More viewers than any other non NFL event this calendar year than all but 3 things- Clemson/Alabama, Game 5 of the NBA finals, and Gonzaga/North Carolina.

If baseball continues this renascence will we start seeing more and more guys like Aaron Judge going to baseball instead of football?

I think you'll see it anyway.

Football has several real problems right now. One is Kaper-dick and the PR nightmare that situation has created. Many people (including myself) have gotten so sick of the BS we don't watch the NFL anymore. Packer football used to be must see TV. I stopped watching after game 1 this year and have no intention of going back until they straighten this out. I know others who feel the same way.

The NFL also is dealing with it's concussion/CTE issue. That's not going away anytime soon either.

If you're a premier athlete and have the choice to make more money playing a safer sport or playing in the NFL with non-guaranteed contracts and the chance you'll be drooling into a cup at 40, which way are you going to go?

I think in some ways the NFL has gotten lucky that baseball has been so good that it's taken some of the attention off of the protests. This weekend will be really interesting to watch now that the MLB is over.

I thought it was really interesting what the CEO I believe it was from Papa John's was saying about how much the protests have eaten in to their sales. This is interesting because Papa John's is probably the advertiser associated with the NFL the most of anyone.

I have "boycotted" Papa John's pizza for years. I have done so because I think that:

1) the pizza sucks;

2) the owner seems an ass who treats his employees poorly.


It has nothing at all to do with the NFL in my case.

And it has nothing at all to do with Papa John's sales being hurt. You already were avoiding them.

(11-02-2017 10:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I thought it was really interesting what the CEO I believe it was from Papa John's was saying about how much the protests have eaten in to their sales. This is interesting because Papa John's is probably the advertiser associated with the NFL the most of anyone.

Yeah, it was John Schnatter. That guy is a real piece. Cut his teeth in college towns and that market and has been isolating them ever since. He's yet again biting the hand that feeds him.

I feel bad for the local franchise owners (and I know one around here). He does what he can, and uses the Philly pro sports scene as best he can (Flyers and Phillies). He doesn't need his ****head CEO pissing off more customers. And, really, because we know the guy, it's the ONLY reason we still patronize Papa John's. How PJ's exists in this region, because we have flippin' AMAZING local pizza around here; it's a testament to local advertising and individual shop service (like hiring great drivers). John's the kind of guy who would take ownership of all of that...a true testament of the local franchisees around here surviving that narcissist.

Sure, John...take on the NFL. This isn't Pizza Hut you're fighting.

Its a guaranteed win for him. Nobody thinks the NFL has handled this well no matter how you feel about the kneeling.

Back when MNF was really killing it, cable wasn't nearly as deep. And networks and cable stations simply didn't compete. I mean, even to the extent that networks wouldn't even try to really fight for other audiences who didn't want to tune into MNF. However, how Nielsen captured audiences wasn't exactly as thick or extensive as their methods today, which are still everchanging.

With the amount of choice out there now, and the loosened grip of broadcast television, it's amazing anything can retain ratings that look good these days.

The marketplace evolved to finally compete against pro football. Then again, how we measure just what people watch and how many people watch it has been changing, too. If football can demand what it can from networks and sponsors...it's fine.

How college sports are shoved onto us, otoh...

(11-02-2017 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  Its a guaranteed win for him. Nobody thinks the NFL has handled this well no matter how you feel about the kneeling.

When you sling the mud, you should expect people to sling it back.

"Papa" should have stayed silent on this one, or kept the NFL's issues within some context. How he approached this topic, he takes a shot at his consumer base, be them current customers or not. And that is marketing suicide, insulting your partner like that. Especially when you aren't in a good position to speak on the matter. Or give anyone in the media to reflect the lens back onto him or his product.

John's no stranger to controversy. If anything, were I the NFL, I'd be shopping for some new sponsors. I actually don't care what's happening in the NFL. And, with Tivo/DVR...I can skip right by that jagweed. And Nielsen cared about that, because sponsors and programming did, too.

saw game 7 rating is in
Wednesday’s Astros-Dodgers World Series Game 7 scored an 18.8 overnight rating on FOX, down 25% from Cubs-Indians last year (25.2) but up 24% from Giants-Royals in 2014 (15.2). There was no Game 7 in 2015. The Astros’ anticlimactic win delivered the second-best Major League Baseball overnight since the clinching Red Sox-Cardinals Game 4 in 2004 (19.7). Last year’s Game 7 holds the top spot.

Overall, the 18.8 is the ninth-highest baseball overnight in the past 20 years, and the third-highest excluding Yankees and Cubs games.

The 18.8 is also the highest for any non-NFL sporting event this year, the second straight year baseball has taken top honors. Excluding both the NFL and the Olympic Games, it is the fourth-highest overnight for any sporting event in a decade — since the 2007 Florida-Ohio State college football national championship (19.1) — behind last year’s Game 7, Game 7 of the 2016 Cavaliers-Warriors NBA Finals (18.9) and the 2015 Ohio State-Oregon college football title game (18.9).

Not too bad for a 5-1 game.

(11-02-2017 01:48 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  Its a guaranteed win for him. Nobody thinks the NFL has handled this well no matter how you feel about the kneeling.

When you sling the mud, you should expect people to sling it back.

"Papa" should have stayed silent on this one, or kept the NFL's issues within some context.

Whether Papa's comments will help or hurt Papa John's sales is yet to be seen. I suspect people who oppose the anthem protests will respond positively, those who support the anthem protests will respond negatively (on that basis, i would bet that you are an anthem protest supporter).

But, it clearly isn't good news for the NFL, his comments have helped to keep the controversy alive in the media.

(11-02-2017 01:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 09:47 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:36 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Saw game 6 had a huge audience- down only 5% from last year with 22.2 million viewers. Better audience then all but 4 NFL games so far this year. More viewers than any other non NFL event this calendar year than all but 3 things- Clemson/Alabama, Game 5 of the NBA finals, and Gonzaga/North Carolina.

If baseball continues this renascence will we start seeing more and more guys like Aaron Judge going to baseball instead of football?

I think you'll see it anyway.

Football has several real problems right now. One is Kaper-dick and the PR nightmare that situation has created. Many people (including myself) have gotten so sick of the BS we don't watch the NFL anymore. Packer football used to be must see TV. I stopped watching after game 1 this year and have no intention of going back until they straighten this out. I know others who feel the same way.

The NFL also is dealing with it's concussion/CTE issue. That's not going away anytime soon either.

If you're a premier athlete and have the choice to make more money playing a safer sport or playing in the NFL with non-guaranteed contracts and the chance you'll be drooling into a cup at 40, which way are you going to go?

I think in some ways the NFL has gotten lucky that baseball has been so good that it's taken some of the attention off of the protests. This weekend will be really interesting to watch now that the MLB is over.

I thought it was really interesting what the CEO I believe it was from Papa John's was saying about how much the protests have eaten in to their sales. This is interesting because Papa John's is probably the advertiser associated with the NFL the most of anyone.

I have "boycotted" Papa John's pizza for years. I have done so because I think that:

1) the pizza sucks;

2) the owner seems an ass who treats his employees poorly.


It has nothing at all to do with the NFL in my case.

And it has nothing at all to do with Papa John's sales being hurt. You already were avoiding them.

Right. He is an idiot who complains all of the time, this time included.

He should try to make better pizza. I think he is an whiny excuse maker.

(11-02-2017 01:48 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  Its a guaranteed win for him. Nobody thinks the NFL has handled this well no matter how you feel about the kneeling.

When you sling the mud, you should expect people to sling it back.

"Papa" should have stayed silent on this one, or kept the NFL's issues within some context. How he approached this topic, he takes a shot at his consumer base, be them current customers or not. And that is marketing suicide, insulting your partner like that. Especially when you aren't in a good position to speak on the matter. Or give anyone in the media to reflect the lens back onto him or his product.

John's no stranger to controversy. If anything, were I the NFL, I'd be shopping for some new sponsors. I actually don't care what's happening in the NFL. And, with Tivo/DVR...I can skip right by that jagweed. And Nielsen cared about that, because sponsors and programming did, too.

He's insulting the NFL, not anyone else. They let it get out of hand. And actually encouraged it once Trump tweeted.

(11-02-2017 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:36 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 08:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Saw game 6 had a huge audience- down only 5% from last year with 22.2 million viewers. Better audience then all but 4 NFL games so far this year. More viewers than any other non NFL event this calendar year than all but 3 things- Clemson/Alabama, Game 5 of the NBA finals, and Gonzaga/North Carolina.

If baseball continues this renascence will we start seeing more and more guys like Aaron Judge going to baseball instead of football?

I think you'll see it anyway.

Football has several real problems right now. One is Kaper-dick and the PR nightmare that situation has created. Many people (including myself) have gotten so sick of the BS we don't watch the NFL anymore. Packer football used to be must see TV. I stopped watching after game 1 this year and have no intention of going back until they straighten this out. I know others who feel the same way.

The NFL also is dealing with it's concussion/CTE issue. That's not going away anytime soon either.

If you're a premier athlete and have the choice to make more money playing a safer sport or playing in the NFL with non-guaranteed contracts and the chance you'll be drooling into a cup at 40, which way are you going to go?

...how much the protests have eaten in to their sales. This is interesting because Papa John's is probably the advertiser associated with the NFL the most of anyone.

Pun intended?

(11-02-2017 03:06 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Right. He is an idiot who complains all of the time, this time included.

He should try to make better pizza. I think he is an whiny excuse maker.

I'd don't buy PJ pizza because I don't think it tastes good.

But to call a guy who started with nothing and built the PJ chain, and $800m of personal wealth, an 'idiot' seems to be stretching things a bit too far. Obviously, lots of people do like their food.

(11-02-2017 09:19 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(11-02-2017 09:12 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Am I alone in thinking a decrease in ratings for Game 6 compared to last year is a bad thing, given this Game 6 may have been the GOAT of Game 6's (to hear it from some)?

AND, the supposed impact of boycotting football didn't redirect any of that traffic to baseball?

I think a big part of that was for the Cubs. While Los Angeles is still a top market, my guess is that more of the east coast was tuning in for the Cubs/Indians than the Astros/Dodgers. Once again, the east coast gets hurt because the games are ending well past midnight.

It was only past midnight due to the length of the games themselves, the games started at 8:15 p.m. Eastern. Game 1 took only 2 and a half hours. The majority of the games were on the weekend, granted they were in Houston. Alternatively, the latest game in the series was Game 5, even after 9 innings.

(11-02-2017 02:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  saw game 7 rating is in
Wednesday’s Astros-Dodgers World Series Game 7 scored an 18.8 overnight rating on FOX, down 25% from Cubs-Indians last year (25.2) but up 24% from Giants-Royals in 2014 (15.2). There was no Game 7 in 2015. The Astros’ anticlimactic win delivered the second-best Major League Baseball overnight since the clinching Red Sox-Cardinals Game 4 in 2004 (19.7). Last year’s Game 7 holds the top spot.

Overall, the 18.8 is the ninth-highest baseball overnight in the past 20 years, and the third-highest excluding Yankees and Cubs games.

The 18.8 is also the highest for any non-NFL sporting event this year, the second straight year baseball has taken top honors. Excluding both the NFL and the Olympic Games, it is the fourth-highest overnight for any sporting event in a decade — since the 2007 Florida-Ohio State college football national championship (19.1) — behind last year’s Game 7, Game 7 of the 2016 Cavaliers-Warriors NBA Finals (18.9) and the 2015 Ohio State-Oregon college football title game (18.9).

Not too bad for a 5-1 game.

It may have been a dud but it wasn't anti-climatic. The 2004 World Series was anti-climatic.