(10-27-2017 08:22 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  Now MM was 7-5 in the playoffs. If you add regular season vs playoff teams over his 15 seasons, I'm sure he had a losing record, but nothing as bad as the 17% Withers had.

Not so fast my friend.

It would take a bit of research (your kind of effort), but MM beat plenty of teams that were ranked at the time JMU played them during the regular season, and I’m not at all convinced MM had a losing record against ranked teams (and the win over VT would count).

(10-29-2017 03:56 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 08:22 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  Now MM was 7-5 in the playoffs. If you add regular season vs playoff teams over his 15 seasons, I'm sure he had a losing record, but nothing as bad as the 17% Withers had.

Not so fast my friend.

It would take a bit of research (your kind of effort), but MM beat plenty of teams that were ranked at the time JMU played them during the regular season, and I’m not at all convinced MM had a losing record against ranked teams (and the win over VT would count).

I said playoff, not ranked at the time.

(10-29-2017 01:05 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 12:23 PM)jmu98 Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 10:43 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 10:09 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Mickey was in hburg Friday for the Alumni golf tournament.

Wait, what? I'd fire him in a heartbeat if I was the HC.

I am sure moglia knew about it.

Would you have fired dabo for going down to Alabama for a reunion earlier this year?

Turns out I was wrong - it was a Mickey impersonator. I mean literally looked just like him. I blame bourbon.

MM was in Hburg last Sunday - he spoke at Uncle Ron’s Memorial Service.

Playoff records are one of the worst stats ever. You can only lose once per year so if you have a bad playoff record, it's REALLY bad.

(10-27-2017 03:06 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:14 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 09:01 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I know one poster that I would love to hear their honest opinion on this...

Do we really want to go there?

I would love to see you & JMUNation discuss this!

We have previously. It ends up being, I know why you feel they way you do.......

(10-29-2017 12:23 PM)jmu98 Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 10:43 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 10:09 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Mickey was in hburg Friday for the Alumni golf tournament.

Wait, what? I'd fire him in a heartbeat if I was the HC.

I am sure moglia knew about it.

Would you have fired dabo for going down to Alabama for a reunion earlier this year?

Not that it really matters since it appears DirtyDukes was seeing double but....

(1) Dabo went down to Bama the day AFTER a game, not 24 hours BEFORE a game where his unit (being the CC defense) was torched for 500+ yards and 32 first downs while losing to a team that hadn't beat an FBS school since 9/3/2016
(2) Dabo was being recognized as part of a team from 20+ years ago and was not attending a booster fundraiser/outing.
(3) Dabo is leading a 6th ranked 7-1 team. MM is leading a unit giving up a 433 yards a game which would be 98th in FBS (yes, I know it is a transition year and all the hardships with that).
(4) Dabo has had nothing to do with Bama for 17 years, and for those 17 years, been at Clemson. MM has only been at CC for 1 year, and spent 14 of the last 17 years at JMU.

(10-29-2017 11:17 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 03:56 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 08:22 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  Now MM was 7-5 in the playoffs. If you add regular season vs playoff teams over his 15 seasons, I'm sure he had a losing record, but nothing as bad as the 17% Withers had.

Not so fast my friend.

It would take a bit of research (your kind of effort), but MM beat plenty of teams that were ranked at the time JMU played them during the regular season, and I’m not at all convinced MM had a losing record against ranked teams (and the win over VT would count).

I said playoff, not ranked at the time.

Then I’m missing your point all together. If MM was 7-5 overall in playoff games, where’s the beef? He lost in the first round? Seriously, that’s splitting hairs pretty fine for a HC that sports a NC and the most wins all-time at JMU.

I think a search would show MM had a competitive record in games against ranked teams, if not an outright winning record.

(10-30-2017 08:01 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:06 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:14 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 09:01 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I know one poster that I would love to hear their honest opinion on this...

Do we really want to go there?

I would love to see you & JMUNation discuss this!

We have previously. It ends up being, I know why you feel they way you do.......

MM was awesome to OJF. I sincerely appreciated how much he did for him during his fight with cancer. Coming out of the locker room to give OJF a jersey and have the band sing happy birthday to him. That was incredibly thoughtful.

No one loved JMU more than OJF. That is why days like Saturday still make me think of him. It was a picture perfect OJF kind of day.

(10-29-2017 03:56 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 08:22 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  Now MM was 7-5 in the playoffs. If you add regular season vs playoff teams over his 15 seasons, I'm sure he had a losing record, but nothing as bad as the 17% Withers had.

Not so fast my friend.

It would take a bit of research (your kind of effort), but MM beat plenty of teams that were ranked at the time JMU played them during the regular season, and I’m not at all convinced MM had a losing record against ranked teams (and the win over VT would count).

WRONG! I have already battled you with this and despite presenting the evidence, you refuse to accept the facts or even present counter evidence. The fact is MM was 14-31 against FCS playoff teams.

Let me save us the time...
Longhorn - "MM beat Tech!"

Doubledogdare - "Okay fine lets at them and say he was 15-31 versus good teams (and conveniently forget his other FBS losses) but he still has a 32% win percentage against good teams."

Longhorn - "He beat ranked teams that didn't end up making the playoffs!"

Doubledogdare - "Sure but in the same breath you discount rankings as inaccurate and completed by GAs instead of people in the know. But sure there are times we beat a ranked opponent and then they didn't make the playoffs for one reason or another. Let's just say he was 32% and the actual win/loss totals don't really matter."
Longhorn - "MM is the best"

Doubledogdare -"Actually MM just struck gold in two years. Those seasons cause statistical outliers over his 14 years at JMU. You see in 2004 MM was 5-1 against playoff teams and in 2008 he was 6-1. So take away his two best years, and to be fair, take away two of his worst too. Two years he was 0-3 against playoff team (and just cause I'm bashing his record and can present the facts, there were 8 other seasons he didn't beat a single FCS playoff team). Anyways, take away top two ('04 and '08) and worst two ('01 and '09) and MM WAS 3-23 AGAINST PLAYOFF TEAMS!! The guy couldn't win a big game unless he had an all american QB."

Longhorn - "I LOVE MM!! SCREW YOUR STATS THE GUY COULD WIN BIG GAMES!!!"

Doubledogdare - "Actually, maybe we should consider 'big games,' like not playoff games, but games were playoff berths were on the line. Cause like in 2013 we were 6-3 and had three games left to play. We lost to playoff bound UNH and Townson (included in the record above) BUT WE ALSO LOST to Stony Brook (4-6) at home. With playoffs on the line we couldn't beat a team with a losing record. What about in 2012 we were 7-2 and playoffs seemed like a near certain thing. Needing one more win to guarantee playoffs we lost the last two games (one home and one away) against playoff bound ODU and Nova. Sure they were playoff teams but I mean he lost both!"

AND ON AND ON AND ON

(10-30-2017 06:18 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  

(10-30-2017 08:01 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:06 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:14 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 09:01 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I know one poster that I would love to hear their honest opinion on this...

Do we really want to go there?

I would love to see you & JMUNation discuss this!

We have previously. It ends up being, I know why you feel they way you do.......

MM was awesome to OJF. I sincerely appreciated how much he did for him during his fight with cancer. Coming out of the locker room to give OJF a jersey and have the band sing happy birthday to him. That was incredibly thoughtful.

No one loved JMU more than OJF. That is why days like Saturday still make me think of him. It was a picture perfect OJF kind of day.

What a perfect way to remember a great man!

Even though some may not like the message, I love the research doubledogdare put into that post.

(10-30-2017 07:16 PM)Potomac Wrote:  Even though some may not like the message, I love the research doubledogdare put into that post.

To be fair, it was mostly a copy and paste. Don't know how to post directly to a post but it starts at #121 in this thread....

http://csnbbs.com/thread-775870-page-3.html

The sad part, I think that post was mostly a copy and paste from a previous post.

Also, I forgot this line of thinking...

Quote:Outside of those two years ['04 and '08] he had 3 wins against playoff teams in 13 years!

(10-30-2017 06:50 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 03:56 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 08:22 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  Now MM was 7-5 in the playoffs. If you add regular season vs playoff teams over his 15 seasons, I'm sure he had a losing record, but nothing as bad as the 17% Withers had.

Not so fast my friend.

It would take a bit of research (your kind of effort), but MM beat plenty of teams that were ranked at the time JMU played them during the regular season, and I’m not at all convinced MM had a losing record against ranked teams (and the win over VT would count).

WRONG! I have already battled you with this and despite presenting the evidence, you refuse to accept the facts or even present counter evidence. The fact is MM was 14-31 against FCS playoff teams.

Let me save us the time...
Longhorn - "MM beat Tech!"

Doubledogdare - "Okay fine lets at them and say he was 15-31 versus good teams (and conveniently forget his other FBS losses) but he still has a 32% win percentage against good teams."

Longhorn - "He beat ranked teams that didn't end up making the playoffs!"

Doubledogdare - "Sure but in the same breath you discount rankings as inaccurate and completed by GAs instead of people in the know. But sure there are times we beat a ranked opponent and then they didn't make the playoffs for one reason or another. Let's just say he was 32% and the actual win/loss totals don't really matter."
Longhorn - "MM is the best"

Doubledogdare -"Actually MM just struck gold in two years. Those seasons cause statistical outliers over his 14 years at JMU. You see in 2004 MM was 5-1 against playoff teams and in 2008 he was 6-1. So take away his two best years, and to be fair, take away two of his worst too. Two years he was 0-3 against playoff team (and just cause I'm bashing his record and can present the facts, there were 8 other seasons he didn't beat a single FCS playoff team). Anyways, take away top two ('04 and '08) and worst two ('01 and '09) and MM WAS 3-23 AGAINST PLAYOFF TEAMS!! The guy couldn't win a big game unless he had an all american QB."

Longhorn - "I LOVE MM!! SCREW YOUR STATS THE GUY COULD WIN BIG GAMES!!!"

Doubledogdare - "Actually, maybe we should consider 'big games,' like not playoff games, but games were playoff berths were on the line. Cause like in 2013 we were 6-3 and had three games left to play. We lost to playoff bound UNH and Townson (included in the record above) BUT WE ALSO LOST to Stony Brook (4-6) at home. With playoffs on the line we couldn't beat a team with a losing record. What about in 2012 we were 7-2 and playoffs seemed like a near certain thing. Needing one more win to guarantee playoffs we lost the last two games (one home and one away) against playoff bound ODU and Nova. Sure they were playoff teams but I mean he lost both!"

AND ON AND ON AND ON

Some folks had/have blinders on when it comes to MM. His record speaks for itself. There were great accomplishments but more failure than success. It’s just that the successes were big successes. Other than 2003; the failures were small in nature. Mostly close losses in playoff games or games with playoff implications. MM was rarely blown out and rarely lost to the teams he should beat.

JMUs regular season record since his departure currently stands at 36-5 if my quick math is correct. Houston could have more playoff wins in his first two years than MM did in 15.

MM did not stay at JMU for 15 years because he was a great coach. He was just good enough to not get fired. Whenever he was on the hot seat, he would put together a memorable season or a significant win to buy him another year or three. He received one FBS offer in 15 years. FBS start up S Ala. A great coach would have drawn more interest. Since his firing, the only opportunity he has received is broadcasting and the DC at an FCS school, which has since decided to move up to FBS.

I struggle why so many defend the mans record with so much vigor. MM was great at building relationships and many loved him because he would drink a beer with almost anyone. There were also his random acts of kindness. There were those that loved him in Harrisonburg and those that had no respect for him. There were very few in the middle.

We see today what what JMUs potential has always been. It is the same for basketball. JMU is not a tough place to recruit to. Everything is there for success. An average coach can do well. A great coach can create a dominating program.

(10-30-2017 06:50 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  AND ON AND ON AND ON

You must really dislike MM don’t you? What happened, did he cut you from the team? Not play your son? Steal your parking spot? Seriously, it must really bother you that you can’t take away the 2004 season, the 2008 season, the win over VT, the most playoff seasons and most wins in JMU history, and perhaps most importantly, the increased attendance and energy around the FB program that led directly to the new BFS. Yet all of those accomplishments are discountered by you because...why? Because MM was not the second coming of Bear Bryant? The depth of your vitriol aimed at MM far exceeds the simple explanation that you didn’t like his coaching record in what you consider big games.

MM was far from a perfect person or coach, but somehow your focus on his failings as a coach outweigh your ability to acknowledge what he gave to JMU. That’s your choice, but I believe JMU’s FB program is relevant today because of his contributions. That’s not blind idolatry, it’s just a rational look at his total record.

Agree 100% with Nation - JMU is a special place where consistent success at a high level should be the norm. Hail to HCMH.

(10-30-2017 07:56 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(10-30-2017 06:50 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  AND ON AND ON AND ON

You must really dislike MM don’t you? What happened, did he cut you from the team? Not play your son? Steal your parking spot? Seriously, it must really bother you that you can’t take away the 2004 season, the 2008 season, the win over VT, the most playoff seasons and most wins in JMU history, and perhaps most importantly, the increased attendance and energy around the FB program that led directly to the new BFS. Yet all of those accomplishments are discountered by you because...why? Because MM was not the second coming of Bear Bryant? The depth of your vitriol aimed at MM far exceeds the simple explanation that you didn’t like his coaching record in what you consider big games.

MM was far from a perfect person or coach, but somehow your focus on his failings as a coach outweigh your ability to acknowledge what he gave to JMU. That’s your choice, but I believe JMU’s FB program is relevant today because of his contributions. That’s not blind idolatry, it’s just a rational look at his total record.

No. Yes. Don't have a son. He parked in a lot I couldn't so I guess yes? None of those accomplishments are "discountered(?)" and to an your "why?" I'll just quote exactly what I said last time we had this convo (and linked in an above post)...

Quote:EDIT: Just cause its Longhorn and the boards let me clarify. I dig MM, he elevated this program and his contributions will always be recognized in my eyes. He created the opportunity for me to come to JMU...

So yea take your vitriol out on someone else cause you look like a fool for attacking me on this. Also stop with this "most wins" crap. He coached ~60 more games than any other head coach and his win % was the lowest of the last three HCs.

(06-23-2016 12:09 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  MM's playoff record was 14-31 and definitely helped by two great seasons. Outside of those two years he had 3 wins against playoff teams in 13 years! Take away the outliers (two 0-3 seasons and two playoff runs) and he would have been 3-23.

2013: 0-2, Lost to UNH and Towson
2012: 0-2, Lost to Nova and ODU
2011: 1-4, Playoff win versus EKU; Lost to ND, UNH, ODU, Maine
2010: 1-3, Beat W&M, Lost to Del, UNH, Nova
2009: 0-3, Lost to Nova, Rich, W&M
2008: 6-1, Beat Wofford and Nova in playoffs, also beat Rich, Nova, Maine and App State; Lost to Montana
2007: 1-3, Beat UNH, Lost to Rich, Del, App State
2006: 0-2, Lost to App State and Youngstown
2005: 0-1, Lost to Rich
2004: 5-1, Beat Montana!, W&M, Furman, Lehigh, Del; Regular season loss to W&M
2003: 0-1, Lost to Mass
2002: 0-2, Lost to Maine, NE
2001: 0-3, Lost to Maine, Nova and W&M
2000: 0-2, Lost to Del and Rich
1999: 0-1, Lost to Troy

I fully expect I missed a team or two but ehhh oh well.

I have 14-32, the only one 1 see you missed is 1999 L @ Hofstra (OOC at the time). But it doesn't matter to the overall point.

So here's the record vs playoff teams (regular season and playoffs):
MM: 14-32, about a 30% winning percentage.
EW: 1-5, about a 17% winning percentage.
MH: 7-0 so far, 100% winning percentage.

One thing that must be said, for MM's 1st 11 seasons, the playoff field was only 16 teams. 10'-12' it was 20 teams. Only in MM's last season, 2013, did the field expand to 24 teams. So the average playoff team during MM's tenure was of higher caliber than during Wither's tenure. If the playoff field had been 24 teams during MM's entire tenure, he would have had a little better than 30% winning percentage vs playoff teams, but still well south of .500..

Of course if you play a team with a winning record in their other games, and beat them, they are less likely to be a playoff team. If you lose to them, they are more likely to be a playoff team. Still better to compare record vs playoff teams than record vs ranked teams (at the time) because of how worthless the polls are. Example this season RU lost to an unranked Elon (now 7-1), and beat a ranked Albany (now 3-5).

Wow, 11 of his 14 wins against playoff teams came in 04 and 08. I had no idea his record against playoff teams was 3-30 if you exclude those two years. I just knew I was disappointed a lot.

MM was very close to winning two or three NCs. I think he might have won the NC in 07 if he had not called a running play inside the App 10 with less than 30 seconds left. The fumble on that play allowed App to go on to win their 3rd NC. The four turnovers against Montana cost us the semi final game in 08. Losing Rodney to injury in that game did not help either.

Thanks for the stats BDK.

(10-30-2017 11:03 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  Wow, 11 of his 14 wins against playoff teams came in 04 and 08. I had no idea his record against playoff teams was 3-30 if you exclude those two years. I just knew I was disappointed a lot.

MM was very close to winning two or three NCs. I think he might have won the NC in 07 if he had not called a running play inside the App 10 with less than 30 seconds left. The fumble on that play allowed App to go on to win their 3rd NC. The four turnovers against Montana cost us the semi final game in 08. Losing Rodney to injury in that game did not help either.

Thanks for the stats BDK.

I'm with you, Nation, never ran the numbers, but more often than not, when we played a big game, I seemed to come away disappointed. MM just about always won the games he was suppose to win, but struggled against better competition, not terrible but you didn't go into those big games with anywhere near the optimism that we have today we really didn't get blown away very often either.

1. MM , with Mickey you were able to see the development of his recruits from 2000 and beyond. His two best seasons, him and his staff recruited every single player. In college football , assistant coaches are the heart of a winning football team. MM also lost some quality coaches to FBS programs. This is where a long tenured coach can have lows ( Also not having a quality QB). I kind of compare MM and Beamer , but MM won a championship.

2. MH , has shown the ability to coach/motivate high level FCS recruits and work with a veteran staff. But, can he win with his own recruits at this level. He has only been on campus two years so this is a area that can't be critiqued at this time.

3. EW. Great recruiter and was able to give JMU an FBS feel in the office and locker room. Was not able to coach us to bigger games and the defensive woes speak for itself.