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Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
The Big South is not in any danger losing Football. They have Basketball (10 schools), Baseball (9) and Soccer (10) for their three men's team sports. I think they will just let Football fall to 5 schools. Gardner-Webb and Charleston Southern are the only member schools sponsoring Football anyway. The only school who can probably find another home is Monmouth with the NEC.
10-28-2017 03:38 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
True, but Monmouth joined the Big South because they wanted to offer more scholarships than the NEC allows. Maybe if there is no other option they take their program to the NEC, but most likely they stay with the misfit toy group until the CAA comes calling.

The Atlantic Sun could take football over, but either Jacksonville or Stetson will have to commit to offering more than zero grants-in-aid for football.
10-28-2017 04:01 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-28-2017 04:01 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  True, but Monmouth joined the Big South because they wanted to offer more scholarships than the NEC allows. Maybe if there is no other option they take their program to the NEC, but most likely they stay with the misfit toy group until the CAA comes calling.

The Atlantic Sun could take football over, but either Jacksonville or Stetson will have to commit to offering more than zero grants-in-aid for football.

I agree they will probably just continue with 5 schools and no automatic Playoff slot, just at-large.

I don't see any Pioneer school offering scholarships. The schools you mention are smaller private liberal arts schools and they skew heavily female. Football scholarships simply cause T9 issues. But non-scholarship helps with male student (full fee) enrollment (for a small private school 50 more boys makes a difference). Stetson has only 3100 undergrads (58% female), Jacksonville 3200 (62% female).

Frankly I think it's likely Gardner Webb may follow suit with Presbyterian soon, as they have less than 2400 undergrads, and are a whopping 64% female(!). Similar but a little better situation at Charleston Southern, which has 3600 undergrads, 62% female. None of these are as small as Presbyterian College with only 1200 students, and it is the South where no matter how insanely expensive, football is almost religion. But the numbers say at least GW should go Pioneer.

Note: Monmouth has 4,700 undergrads and 6,500 total, with 57% female. The larger student body and slightly higher male ratio puts them in much better shape to support scholarship football. Public schools Kennesaw State (17K students, 52% male) and North Alabama (almost 10K students, but only 41% male) don't have the small enrollment issue.
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 11:41 PM by Stugray2.)
10-28-2017 05:19 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-28-2017 03:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The Big South is not in any danger losing Football. They have Basketball (10 schools), Baseball (9) and Soccer (10) for their three men's team sports. I think they will just let Football fall to 5 schools. Gardner-Webb and Charleston Southern are the only member schools sponsoring Football anyway. The only school who can probably find another home is Monmouth with the NEC.

Campbell will be big south football soon. This keeps 6 necessary for fcs playoff autobid
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 07:31 PM by solohawks.)
10-28-2017 07:30 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-27-2017 09:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Presbyterian has women's lax, but doesn't currently have men's lax.

they did have mens as well. dropped it a year or so ago
10-28-2017 09:28 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-28-2017 09:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 09:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Presbyterian has women's lax, but doesn't currently have men's lax.

they did have mens as well. dropped it a year or so ago

Hum, you are right; coming in 2018.
http://bigsouthsports.com/news/2016/11/1...h=football

They are much larger, with 7,200 students, 47% male.

Gardner Webb student body size and composition do not look good for Football in the long run.
10-28-2017 11:47 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
Campbell U appears to backers with deep pockets. Just started a Med school, a pharmacy and physical therapy school, an engineering school and other growth, football is a vehicle to build more awareness
10-29-2017 12:24 AM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-25-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:02 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  KSU or UNA plus Campbell would be a good 2-team pick-up by the SOCON. So that means it'll never ever happen

SoCon and OVC are both at 9 football schools. Going to 12 with UNA, Kennesaw St, and one other would be a great move for both conferences.

I wonder if the SoCon's public schools East Tennessee, Western Carolina, and Chattanooga could lobby for more public representation.

Explain this to me - why is going to 12 schools inherently good for the SoCon? What's wrong with a league structure where the conference champion is decided on the field? This isn't the P5, where additions could potentially generate a windfall of new revenue. It just creates messier scheduling because not everyone will play each other unless they go to 9 conference games, which no one in that league has an appetite to do.

There are schools in the Big South that would be a good fit in the SoCon as far as geography, finances, football quality and regional identity, but you also have to anticipate other sports coming with them - Kennesaw's football program is pretty good under Bohannon (assuming he's still there next year), but nobody wants anything to do with KSU basketball, which just posted its best RPI in its Division I history at 259 in the A-Sun. Campbell is a good and growing school academically, but doesn't add much in the way of quality football or hoops and hasn't for a while. Gardner-Webb and CSU fit the footprint, but, again, lackluster sports offerings. Monmouth is a no for geography.

If PC eliminates scholarships for football, they don't have much to offer anyone. I'm assuming someone floated this by somebody at the Big South HQ and made sure it wouldn't jeopardize their conference affiliation. If not, the fallout from this could be fun.
10-30-2017 03:21 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-30-2017 03:21 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:02 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  KSU or UNA plus Campbell would be a good 2-team pick-up by the SOCON. So that means it'll never ever happen

SoCon and OVC are both at 9 football schools. Going to 12 with UNA, Kennesaw St, and one other would be a great move for both conferences.

I wonder if the SoCon's public schools East Tennessee, Western Carolina, and Chattanooga could lobby for more public representation.

Explain this to me - why is going to 12 schools inherently good for the SoCon? What's wrong with a league structure where the conference champion is decided on the field? This isn't the P5, where additions could potentially generate a windfall of new revenue. It just creates messier scheduling because not everyone will play each other unless they go to 9 conference games, which no one in that league has an appetite to do.

There are schools in the Big South that would be a good fit in the SoCon as far as geography, finances, football quality and regional identity, but you also have to anticipate other sports coming with them - Kennesaw's football program is pretty good under Bohannon (assuming he's still there next year), but nobody wants anything to do with KSU basketball, which just posted its best RPI in its Division I history at 259 in the A-Sun. Campbell is a good and growing school academically, but doesn't add much in the way of quality football or hoops and hasn't for a while. Gardner-Webb and CSU fit the footprint, but, again, lackluster sports offerings. Monmouth is a no for geography.

If PC eliminates scholarships for football, they don't have much to offer anyone. I'm assuming someone floated this by somebody at the Big South HQ and made sure it wouldn't jeopardize their conference affiliation. If not, the fallout from this could be fun.


I think if they do want to have an all public schools?


Chattanooga
East Tennessee State
Kennesaw State
Western Carolina
North Alabama
VMI
The Citadel
UNF and FGCU if they add football.
West Florida
Valdosta State
They could grab Jacksonville State to make 12. That group could go FBS. Yeah, I know about the military schools. They do have very large FBS size stadiums, and have a large alumni base to boot.
10-30-2017 03:46 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-30-2017 03:46 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-30-2017 03:21 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:02 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  KSU or UNA plus Campbell would be a good 2-team pick-up by the SOCON. So that means it'll never ever happen

SoCon and OVC are both at 9 football schools. Going to 12 with UNA, Kennesaw St, and one other would be a great move for both conferences.

I wonder if the SoCon's public schools East Tennessee, Western Carolina, and Chattanooga could lobby for more public representation.

Explain this to me - why is going to 12 schools inherently good for the SoCon? What's wrong with a league structure where the conference champion is decided on the field? This isn't the P5, where additions could potentially generate a windfall of new revenue. It just creates messier scheduling because not everyone will play each other unless they go to 9 conference games, which no one in that league has an appetite to do.

There are schools in the Big South that would be a good fit in the SoCon as far as geography, finances, football quality and regional identity, but you also have to anticipate other sports coming with them - Kennesaw's football program is pretty good under Bohannon (assuming he's still there next year), but nobody wants anything to do with KSU basketball, which just posted its best RPI in its Division I history at 259 in the A-Sun. Campbell is a good and growing school academically, but doesn't add much in the way of quality football or hoops and hasn't for a while. Gardner-Webb and CSU fit the footprint, but, again, lackluster sports offerings. Monmouth is a no for geography.

If PC eliminates scholarships for football, they don't have much to offer anyone. I'm assuming someone floated this by somebody at the Big South HQ and made sure it wouldn't jeopardize their conference affiliation. If not, the fallout from this could be fun.


I think if they do want to have an all public schools?


Chattanooga
East Tennessee State
Kennesaw State
Western Carolina
North Alabama
VMI
The Citadel
UNF and FGCU if they add football.
West Florida
Valdosta State
They could grab Jacksonville State to make 12. That group could go FBS. Yeah, I know about the military schools. They do have very large FBS size stadiums, and have a large alumni base to boot.

There's ZERO desire at The Citadel to go FBS, and at 21k Johnson-Haygood is marginally FBS sized with little room for expansion.
10-30-2017 04:30 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-30-2017 03:21 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:02 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  KSU or UNA plus Campbell would be a good 2-team pick-up by the SOCON. So that means it'll never ever happen

SoCon and OVC are both at 9 football schools. Going to 12 with UNA, Kennesaw St, and one other would be a great move for both conferences.

I wonder if the SoCon's public schools East Tennessee, Western Carolina, and Chattanooga could lobby for more public representation.

Explain this to me - why is going to 12 schools inherently good for the SoCon? What's wrong with a league structure where the conference champion is decided on the field? This isn't the P5, where additions could potentially generate a windfall of new revenue. It just creates messier scheduling because not everyone will play each other unless they go to 9 conference games, which no one in that league has an appetite to do.

There are schools in the Big South that would be a good fit in the SoCon as far as geography, finances, football quality and regional identity, but you also have to anticipate other sports coming with them - Kennesaw's football program is pretty good under Bohannon (assuming he's still there next year), but nobody wants anything to do with KSU basketball, which just posted its best RPI in its Division I history at 259 in the A-Sun. Campbell is a good and growing school academically, but doesn't add much in the way of quality football or hoops and hasn't for a while. Gardner-Webb and CSU fit the footprint, but, again, lackluster sports offerings. Monmouth is a no for geography.

If PC eliminates scholarships for football, they don't have much to offer anyone. I'm assuming someone floated this by somebody at the Big South HQ and made sure it wouldn't jeopardize their conference affiliation. If not, the fallout from this could be fun.

I think the incentive for a larger FCS conference is the ability to send multiple teams to the playoffs?

As for PC's value to Big South...I'm sure A-Sun or WAC would take them if it came to it.
10-31-2017 08:25 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
According to other boards, Presbyterian is dropping scholarship football and going to the Pioneer League. It will then start wrestling and join the SoCon as an affiliate for that. SIU-E will leave the SoCon after this year for the MAC, leaving the SoCon at 7 wrestling members.

There is already a wrestling page with nothing on it at the Blue Hose athletics website, so there seems to be some verfication of the addition. The board is scheduled to vote today on a revised strategic plan for athletics.

Google "Blue Hose wrestling" and up comes a mostly blank page on PC athletics website.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 06:14 AM by NoDak.)
11-11-2017 04:54 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
NoDak,

You are a lousy tester (obviously you are not very tech savvy nor ever a developer). That web page means nothing at all. I played with the ID numbers for the Presbyterian web page and found pages for the following sports they do not sponsor:

Women's Gymnastics (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10795)
Men's Track and Field (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10789)
Waterski (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10787)
Men's Lacrosse (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10780)
Wrestling (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10755)
Swimming and Diving (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10749)
((generic, no gender)) Track and Field (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10738)
((generic, no gender)) Gymnastics (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10737)
Rally Squad (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10736)
Women's Ice Hockey (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10733)
Men's Ice Hockey (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10732)

There are many duplicates and all sorts of other things in there. All that means, is that somebody when setting up the website played around and assigned sports dB ID numbers. The above are all probably more than a few years old.

This is an example of you reading information incorrectly and jumping to a false conclusion. Worse you didn't even test your information, as I did above (spent an entire 5 minutes compiling that list).

The only fact is this, Presbyterian College Trustees are voting latter today (November 11th) on dropping scholarship football. A petition to try and show a groundswell of opposition garnered only 1212 signatures -- since it's a mix of alumni, fans, students and random internet junkies like yourself, and that number that is pretty weak.

The school lists only 1063 undergraduates for 2016-17 (they listed 1064 for 2014-15, so they seem pretty flat). The lowest female ratio I found says 54% and the highest 60%, which would translate to between 425 and 490 undergraduate men. This looks like a D-III school by the numbers.

There is nothing beyond forums writers like you suggesting Wrestling will be added. Heck if it were not for the petition to delay the decision, we would not even know Presbyterian was having a Trustee meeting.
11-11-2017 06:39 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-11-2017 06:39 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  NoDak,

You are a lousy tester (obviously you are not very tech savvy nor ever a developer). That web page means nothing at all. I played with the ID numbers for the Presbyterian web page and found pages for the following sports they do not sponsor:

Women's Gymnastics (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10795)
Men's Track and Field (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10789)
Waterski (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10787)
Men's Lacrosse (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10780)
Wrestling (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10755)
Swimming and Diving (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10749)
((generic, no gender)) Track and Field (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10738)
((generic, no gender)) Gymnastics (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10737)
Rally Squad (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10736)
Women's Ice Hockey (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10733)
Men's Ice Hockey (DB_OEM_ID=18100&SPID=10732)

There are many duplicates and all sorts of other things in there. All that means, is that somebody when setting up the website played around and assigned sports dB ID numbers. The above are all probably more than a few years old.

This is an example of you reading information incorrectly and jumping to a false conclusion. Worse you didn't even test your information, as I did above (spent an entire 5 minutes compiling that list).

The only fact is this, Presbyterian College Trustees are voting latter today (November 11th) on dropping scholarship football. A petition to try and show a groundswell of opposition garnered only 1212 signatures -- since it's a mix of alumni, fans, students and random internet junkies like yourself, and that number that is pretty weak.

The school lists only 1063 undergraduates for 2016-17 (they listed 1064 for 2014-15, so they seem pretty flat). The lowest female ratio I found says 54% and the highest 60%, which would translate to between 425 and 490 undergraduate men. This looks like a D-III school by the numbers.

There is nothing beyond forums writers like you suggesting Wrestling will be added. Heck if it were not for the petition to delay the decision, we would not even know Presbyterian was having a Trustee meeting.
Other posters said wrestling would be added. Geeks like you never listen to others, always insisting that they know best.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 07:33 AM by NoDak.)
11-11-2017 07:32 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-25-2017 12:59 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  http://www.clintonchronicle.com/sports/p...c-football


Presbyterian College's Board of Trustees intends to vote on November 11, 2017, to remove athletic scholarships from the D1 football team (potentially entering the Pioneer league). An issue as big as football and athletics that will have implications across every aspect of campus life should be made with input from students, athletes, alumni and the larger PC family. An opportunity to voice our thoughts must be heard BEFORE a vote. Since the Board of Trustees will expect Alumni to support the college following the decision, they should stop and listen before making the final decision. By signing this petition, you are asking that the vote is delayed until an open and transparent investigation occurs, making sure that all options have been explored.
We, the undersigned, call on the Presbyterian College Board of Trustees and Administration to delay the vote to make changes to the football program until an open and transparent investigation occurs, input is gathered from all affected parties (including alumni) and all options have been explored.

Their fate is predestined
11-11-2017 09:07 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
carolinapreps.com/forums/topic/25040-presbyterian-college/

Stugray will have to post on that site too, saying they don't know how to code.

So men's and women's wrestling programs will be added.
11-11-2017 09:27 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
seems odd that any school would add wrestling. that is usually one of the first to go and I haven't actually researched this, but I would guess one of the least sponsored sports. (maybe beach volleyball and water polo?)
11-11-2017 09:45 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-11-2017 09:45 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  seems odd that any school would add wrestling. that is usually one of the first to go and I haven't actually researched this, but I would guess one of the least sponsored sports. (maybe beach volleyball and water polo?)

Affiliating with the SoCon for men's wrestling seems to be a big deal for them.

Eleven NCAA schools have petitioned the NCAA to sponsor women's wrestling. Arizona St was the sole DI school. Presbyterian College may be looking to be get in on it as the second Di and some name recognition.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 10:08 AM by NoDak.)
11-11-2017 10:00 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-11-2017 09:07 AM)shere khan Wrote:  Their fate is predestined

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11-11-2017 10:07 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(10-30-2017 03:21 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-25-2017 02:02 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  KSU or UNA plus Campbell would be a good 2-team pick-up by the SOCON. So that means it'll never ever happen

SoCon and OVC are both at 9 football schools. Going to 12 with UNA, Kennesaw St, and one other would be a great move for both conferences.

I wonder if the SoCon's public schools East Tennessee, Western Carolina, and Chattanooga could lobby for more public representation.

Explain this to me - why is going to 12 schools inherently good for the SoCon? What's wrong with a league structure where the conference champion is decided on the field? This isn't the P5, where additions could potentially generate a windfall of new revenue. It just creates messier scheduling because not everyone will play each other unless they go to 9 conference games, which no one in that league has an appetite to do.

There are schools in the Big South that would be a good fit in the SoCon as far as geography, finances, football quality and regional identity, but you also have to anticipate other sports coming with them - Kennesaw's football program is pretty good under Bohannon (assuming he's still there next year), but nobody wants anything to do with KSU basketball, which just posted its best RPI in its Division I history at 259 in the A-Sun. Campbell is a good and growing school academically, but doesn't add much in the way of quality football or hoops and hasn't for a while. Gardner-Webb and CSU fit the footprint, but, again, lackluster sports offerings. Monmouth is a no for geography.

If PC eliminates scholarships for football, they don't have much to offer anyone. I'm assuming someone floated this by somebody at the Big South HQ and made sure it wouldn't jeopardize their conference affiliation. If not, the fallout from this could be fun.

The perk of adding the Big South refugees as football affiliates for both the OVC and SoCon is that they have a better chance of earning more playoff berths. If you do full found robin all of your good teams beat up on eachother and potentially knock eachother out of the post season. Pad your conference schedule with some weaker teams and some of your heavy hitters don't play every year so you end up with multiple teams with good conference records that look deserving of a berth.

With that said, based on the size of Charleston Southern and Gardner-Webb, both schools shoul be playing non-scholarship/low scholarship ball. That's what the Big South ought to be sponsoring--

Stetson
Jacksonville
Campbell
Gardner-Webb
Presbyterian
Charleston Southern
Davidson

Let UNA, Kennesaw St, and Monmouth stick around with their scholarships but with the idea they need find another home down the road.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 11:20 AM by Fighting Muskie.)
11-11-2017 11:17 AM
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