In B-4, Judge advances past second and fails to re-touch as he returns to first on the line-out to right. He then attempts to beat the throw to 2nd on the appeal play (which attempt Joe Buck and the boys praise). Am I incorrect in thinking that even if he beats the tag at second he is still out since he still has to return to first? (In other words he has to return to first after touching second and he can't do that in reverse order).

Correct?

How many outs?

[quote='Houston Owl' pid='14687831' dateline='1508286110']
In B-4, Judge advances past second and fails to re-touch as he returns to first on the line-out to right. He then attempts to beat the throw to 2nd on the appeal play (which attempt Joe Buck and the boys praise). Am I incorrect in thinking that even if he beats the tag at second he is still out since he still has to return to first? (In other words he has to return to first after touching second and he can't do that in reverse order).

Correct?
quote]

No. They said if he had been safe at 2nd he would have the base. Apparently touching first didn't matter.

(10-17-2017 07:47 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  [quote='Houston Owl' pid='14687831' dateline='1508286110']
In B-4, Judge advances past second and fails to re-touch as he returns to first on the line-out to right. He then attempts to beat the throw to 2nd on the appeal play (which attempt Joe Buck and the boys praise). Am I incorrect in thinking that even if he beats the tag at second he is still out since he still has to return to first? (In other words he has to return to first after touching second and he can't do that in reverse order).

Correct?
quote]

No. They said if he had been safe at 2nd he would have the base. Apparently touching first didn't matter.

I think that's the question - were "they" right, and why?

I think the Astros were going to appeal the play when he tried to steal 2nd? That's how they were describing it on the radio when I was listening to it. I think he would have been called out in seconds anyway, so he was trying to steal 2nd before they could do the appeal play? He was out caught stealing so the appeal play wasn't necessary.

Regardless, he made up for it with his bat later in the game. Bad bullpen effort today by Houston. The good news is McCullers pitched great. The bad news is you almost need complete games (or a huge lead) from Keuchel and Verlander tomorrow and Friday.

I didn't see the last play, and I'm not following the description. Did he ever tag up at first after the catch?

How many outs?

He beat the throw back to first (barely) but didn't touch second when going back to first. He was safe for a moment.

It was a caught line drive, right? If less than 2 outs, he tagged up at 1st then tried for second, but in more roundabout fashion than usual. If it was 2 outs - well, I don't know that rule.

Okay. Here's a better description:

One out Judge at first.
Line drive to right field.
Judge is running on the play, passes second and returns to first clearly without touching second on the way back.
Beats the throw to first and is called safe.
Next batter steps into the box and the ball is "in play"
Pitcher steps off and throws to second to appeal.
At that point Judge is dead but he decides to try and beat the throw to second on the appeal. It's close but Correa tags Judge as he slides into second.
At that point the commentators call Judge's attempt to reach second "brilliant".
Girardi watches the play and decides not to seek a review on th "play" at second

My point is: Judge is out even if he beats the appeal throw at second. He has to touch second on the way back and then touch first. Any time he is tagged before doing that in the correct order he is out. Am I right?

No I think that his stolen base attempt would be a new play so if he was safe on the steal, the Astros wouldn't have been able to attempt an appeal anymore. But the Astros might have argued that McCullers had already stepped off the mound, signifying a dead ball scenario, and that the stolen base attempt wasn't valid to begin with. They probably shouldn't have tried to even throw to 2nd to begin with (was it McCullers who threw to Correa?).

(10-17-2017 08:23 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  No I think that his stolen base attempt would be a new play so if he was safe on the steal, the Astros wouldn't have been able to attempt an appeal anymore. But the Astros might have argued that McCullers had already stepped off the mound, signifying a dead ball scenario, and that the stolen base attempt wasn't valid to begin with. They probably shouldn't have tried to even throw to 2nd to begin with (was it McCullers who threw to Correa?).

But if they don't throw to 2nd it's one on with one out instead of no one on with two outs.

I don't think the ball is dead if the previous play isn't complete.

I'm not trying to belabor a point so ignore me, but I don't think anyone in the stadium knew the rules. Here's another try after reading the New York Post description of the play:

1. Judge leads off B-4 with a walk.
2. Next batter strikes out.
3. Judge is running on the pitch to Sanchez who lines out to right.
4. Judge touches second and continues (obviously intending to advance to 3rd if the ball drops in right).
5. Reddick catches the liner and throws to first after hesitating to allow Gurriel to get to first to handle the throw.
6. Judge returns to first without touching second on the way (Replay shows the second base umpire intently watching whether he touched second).
7. Judge and Gurriel reach first at the same time, both touching the base. Umpire rules that Gurriel got there first and rules Judge out.
8. Girardi requests an appeal.
9. While watching the appeal replay, Hinch realizes the Judge missed second.
10. Umpires overrule the call at first and rule Judge safe.
11. Hinch attempts an appeal/review but is clearly told that it is an appeal play at second. Hinch attempts to instruct his team how to appeal.
12. McCullers gets on the mound, the batter steps in and the ball is "in play".
13. McCullers steps off and throw to second to appeal. At that point Judge realizes the problem and heads to second.
14. Correa catches the throw and tags Judge before he reaches second.
15. Girardi reviews the replay of this play and decides that Judge was tagged before he reached second and the out stands.

The absurdity is that I don't think it matters what happens at either base. Judge has to be out at first because he didn't re-touch second on his way back. In addition, it doesn't matter whether he beats the throw at second because he hasn't re-touched the bases in correct order.

Anybody agree? Or are you bored to death?

As I said before your latest post, appeals must be made before the next pitch or attempted play. I think it's actually a smart play by Judge and may start a trend. If you know you're going to be called out on appeal, may as well go out with a bang. If Judge steals second, it's a play and the Astros can't appeal the previous play anymore.

This was a strange scenario because a lot of appeals are going to be runners leaving base too early on a SF or something like that. Those runners are going to be in the dugout but in this case, Judge was on the field and it was a smart move by him.

(10-17-2017 08:32 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(10-17-2017 08:23 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  No I think that his stolen base attempt would be a new play so if he was safe on the steal, the Astros wouldn't have been able to attempt an appeal anymore. But the Astros might have argued that McCullers had already stepped off the mound, signifying a dead ball scenario, and that the stolen base attempt wasn't valid to begin with. They probably shouldn't have tried to even throw to 2nd to begin with (was it McCullers who threw to Correa?).

But if they don't throw to 2nd it's one on with one out instead of no one on with two outs.

I don't think the ball is dead if the previous play isn't complete.

The proper thing for Houston to do in this situation would be to ignore Judge and just make sure Correa touches second before Judge is reaching the base on the stolen base attempt. But if Judge reaches second before the Astros appeal the play (or try to tag him out on a stolen base attempt), he would indeed have stolen the base and the Astros could no longer appeal the original base running gaffe.

I think you're right...the Judge steal attempt is a "play" that would eliminate the right to appeal. I'm not sure anyone understood that concept at the time.

Thanks