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HHS: When life begins
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umbluegray Offline
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HHS: When life begins
The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services released a draft of its new strategic plan for 2018-2022 with the addition of the simple words.

Formerly the document stated:

Quote:HHS accomplishes its mission through programs and initiatives that cover a wide spectrum of activities, serving Americans at every stage of life.

Now, with three words added the document states:

Quote:HHS accomplishes its mission through programs and initiatives that cover a wide spectrum of activities, serving Americans at every stage of life, beginning at conception.

HHS to define human life as ‘beginning at conception’

20 Weeks
[Image: 20-weeks-human-fetus-681x1024.jpg]
10-12-2017 01:51 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
Liberals just collectively recoiled like vampires when the drapes are drawn back at dawn.
10-12-2017 01:53 PM
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Paul M Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 02:18 PM by Paul M.)
10-12-2017 02:13 PM
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Post: #4
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?
10-12-2017 02:28 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #5
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Quote:Conception Dates Are Only Estimates

Conception dates are only considered estimates for several reasons. First of all, even women with regular cycles may not ovulate on day 14 each month. It can vary slightly, anywhere from day 12 to day 16 for a regular woman on a 28-day cycle.

Other reasons conception dates are just estimated include the following:

-Sperm life can be up to three to five days.
-Stress or other life changes can change even regular women's cycles for that month.
-Eggs take 12 to 24 hours to be shed, so the estimated conception date may be off by one day.
-Spotting at implantation can be mistaken for a last missed period, throwing off conception date by as much as a month.

The only completely accurate way of knowing conception date is when infertility treatments, such as artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization treatments have been used.
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Est...ption_Date

And lastly, which government office is going to be in charge of tracking all women's periods and ovulation dates.

Small government be damned again by conservatives. 03-lol
10-12-2017 03:23 PM
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solohawks Online
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Post: #6
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Quote:Conception Dates Are Only Estimates

Conception dates are only considered estimates for several reasons. First of all, even women with regular cycles may not ovulate on day 14 each month. It can vary slightly, anywhere from day 12 to day 16 for a regular woman on a 28-day cycle.

Other reasons conception dates are just estimated include the following:

-Sperm life can be up to three to five days.
-Stress or other life changes can change even regular women's cycles for that month.
-Eggs take 12 to 24 hours to be shed, so the estimated conception date may be off by one day.
-Spotting at implantation can be mistaken for a last missed period, throwing off conception date by as much as a month.

The only completely accurate way of knowing conception date is when infertility treatments, such as artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization treatments have been used.
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Est...ption_Date

And lastly, which government office is going to be in charge of tracking all women's periods and ovulation dates.

Small government be damned again by conservatives. 03-lol
simple solution, when in doubt, choose life
10-12-2017 03:25 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 02:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?

Anybody else who is pro-life from conception and thinks there is no possible alternative view feel free to step right and play along.
10-12-2017 03:32 PM
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200yrs2late Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Conception dates are estimates, but you are estimating a past event. Therefore it doesn't matter if the exact day is off a little bit, there is a life present that began when it was conceived. Not knowing whether that was 24 or 34 days ago doesn't change the fact that it exists.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 03:55 PM by 200yrs2late.)
10-12-2017 03:50 PM
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200yrs2late Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?

Anybody else who is pro-life from conception and thinks there is no possible alternative view feel free to step right and play along.

I'll play along.

A human life is a fertilized oocyte, what we call a zygote.
It begins at the moment on fertilization.
It is no more acceptable for a third party to end a human life in the womb than it is to murder a 3 year old child.
10-12-2017 04:01 PM
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ummechengr Offline
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Post: #10
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?

Anybody else who is pro-life from conception and thinks there is no possible alternative view feel free to step right and play along.

I'll step in for a friendly discussion as a pro-lifer at conception. Not sure what you mean by "thinks there is no possible alternative view".....as I'm smart enough to know I don't know everything.

My general views are as follows:
1. A new and unique human life begins at conception.
2. While I find abortion abhorrent, I have an issue with the government declaring it completely illegal (Pretty libertarian)
3. Terminating a pregnancy in my (and my wife's opinion) is only acceptable in certain physical, 'health of the mother' situations.

Here's to an open-minded and informative discussion!
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 04:11 PM by ummechengr.)
10-12-2017 04:10 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #11
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:50 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Conception dates are estimates, but you are estimating a past event. Therefore it doesn't matter if the exact day is off a little bit, there is a life present that began when it was conceived. Not knowing whether that was 24 or 34 days ago doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Yeah, but when they're wanting to put a 20-week limit on abortions, it sure as hell matters!

Further, if it's a life at conception, can you now claim it on your taxes before it's born?
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 04:12 PM by Redwingtom.)
10-12-2017 04:11 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 02:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?

Fair enough.

I understand completely that everyone has their own ideas, so here's mine.

In simplistic
Female egg: a living cell containing genetic material (X)
Male sperm: a living cell containing genetic material (X or Y)

Upon fertilization the zygote is either XX (girl) or XY (boy).

DISCLAIMER: I know that will freak out some leftist, but we're talking about science, no social justice crap.

Upon fertilization NO additional genetic material is add from this point forward until death.

Upon fertilization the zygote (clump of cells, fetus, baby, pick one) has unique DNA. Note this DNA is human DNA.


ANALYSIS Science confirms that human life begins at fertilization


The "when life begins" debate can be framed certain ways. Oftentimes the pro-choice (aka anti-life) people like to use sentience as the criteria.

The definition of sentient is "able to perceive or feel things."

They tend to use sentient in the sense that the being is aware or has thought. But you could also use the other meaning. Unborn babies react to touch 8 weeks after fertilization. By 20 weeks they can feel pain.
10-12-2017 04:18 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:25 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Quote:Conception Dates Are Only Estimates

Conception dates are only considered estimates for several reasons. First of all, even women with regular cycles may not ovulate on day 14 each month. It can vary slightly, anywhere from day 12 to day 16 for a regular woman on a 28-day cycle.

Other reasons conception dates are just estimated include the following:

-Sperm life can be up to three to five days.
-Stress or other life changes can change even regular women's cycles for that month.
-Eggs take 12 to 24 hours to be shed, so the estimated conception date may be off by one day.
-Spotting at implantation can be mistaken for a last missed period, throwing off conception date by as much as a month.

The only completely accurate way of knowing conception date is when infertility treatments, such as artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization treatments have been used.
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Est...ption_Date

And lastly, which government office is going to be in charge of tracking all women's periods and ovulation dates.

Small government be damned again by conservatives. 03-lol
simple solution, when in doubt, choose life

Exactly! +3
10-12-2017 04:31 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Quote:Conception Dates Are Only Estimates

Conception dates are only considered estimates for several reasons. First of all, even women with regular cycles may not ovulate on day 14 each month. It can vary slightly, anywhere from day 12 to day 16 for a regular woman on a 28-day cycle.

Other reasons conception dates are just estimated include the following:

-Sperm life can be up to three to five days.
-Stress or other life changes can change even regular women's cycles for that month.
-Eggs take 12 to 24 hours to be shed, so the estimated conception date may be off by one day.
-Spotting at implantation can be mistaken for a last missed period, throwing off conception date by as much as a month.

The only completely accurate way of knowing conception date is when infertility treatments, such as artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization treatments have been used.
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Est...ption_Date

And lastly, which government office is going to be in charge of tracking all women's periods and ovulation dates.

Small government be damned again by conservatives. 03-lol

While the exact date of conception may be a guess, the moment of conception is the beginning of unique human life.
10-12-2017 04:33 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 04:11 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:50 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  It starts at conception. Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Paul, you do realize that you cannot predict the exact date of conception don't you? It's only an estimate...and it can be off by as much as a month in some cases.

Conception dates are estimates, but you are estimating a past event. Therefore it doesn't matter if the exact day is off a little bit, there is a life present that began when it was conceived. Not knowing whether that was 24 or 34 days ago doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Yeah, but when they're wanting to put a 20-week limit on abortions, it sure as hell matters!

Further, if it's a life at conception, can you now claim it on your taxes before it's born?

I'd be cool with that.

Well, that is, until we get the new streamlined tax system. 03-wink
10-12-2017 04:34 PM
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ummechengr Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 04:18 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:13 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Only dishonest liars don't acknowledge this.

Okay, I'll bite.

Let's start on the same playing field, though, because I detest slippery definitions which are so common when discussing this.

First: What is a human life? When do you say it begins? When, precisely defined and with what criteria used, is it acceptable for a third party to end a human life?

Fair enough.

I understand completely that everyone has their own ideas, so here's mine.

In simplistic
Female egg: a living cell containing genetic material (X)
Male sperm: a living cell containing genetic material (X or Y)

Upon fertilization the zygote is either XX (girl) or XY (boy).

DISCLAIMER: I know that will freak out some leftist, but we're talking about science, no social justice crap.

Upon fertilization NO additional genetic material is add from this point forward until death.

Upon fertilization the zygote (clump of cells, fetus, baby, pick one) has unique DNA. Note this DNA is human DNA.


ANALYSIS Science confirms that human life begins at fertilization


The "when life begins" debate can be framed certain ways. Oftentimes the pro-choice (aka anti-life) people like to use sentience as the criteria.

The definition of sentient is "able to perceive or feel things."

They tend to use sentient in the sense that the being is aware or has thought. But you could also use the other meaning. Unborn babies react to touch 8 weeks after fertilization. By 20 weeks they can feel pain.

To speak to the "sentience" argument, I would ask at what point does a comatose patient lose their humanity?

"A clump of homo-sapiens cells that is aware of it's surroundings/existence, or has been in the past __ Months/Years shall be defined as human life", seems a bit clunky.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 04:49 PM by ummechengr.)
10-12-2017 04:48 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #17
RE: HHS: When life begins
Why are people pretending like if they can prove that conception is when life begins, that they've won the game?

Life can absolutely be taken away from someone, morally and legally, in certain circumstances. For example, if a person is sentenced to death for a crime they've committed, their life can be taken from them. That is morally and legally correct.

Likewise, just because an unborn baby has life, does not automatically make it immoral and illegal to take away that life. And that is correct.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 04:54 PM by MplsBison.)
10-12-2017 04:52 PM
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ummechengr Offline
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 04:52 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Why are people pretending like if they can prove that conception is when life begins, that they've won the game?

Life can absolutely be taken away from someone, morally and legally, in certain circumstances. For example, if a person is sentenced to death for a crime they've committed, their life can be taken from them. That is morally and legally correct.

Likewise, just because an unborn baby has life, does not automatically prevent it from being morally and legally correct to take that life away, in certain circumstances. And that is correct. Then, it's simply for the courts to decide those circumstances.

No one is trying to prove that "life" begins at conception, but instead that "human life" begins at conception. If a unique human's life begins at conception, then there should be some pretty well grounded reasons for ending it. Many would argue that inconveniencing a woman with another mouth to feed is a good enough reason.

In addition, the most common argument I hear in favor of abortion is that at some arbitrary point during gestation, it's "just a clump of cells".

I think there are many that would disagree with what you've listed as being "morally" correct.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 04:59 PM by ummechengr.)
10-12-2017 04:57 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #19
RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 04:52 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Why are people pretending like if they can prove that conception is when life begins, that they've won the game?

Life can absolutely be taken away from someone, morally and legally, in certain circumstances. For example, if a person is sentenced to death for a crime they've committed, their life can be taken from them. That is morally and legally correct.

Likewise, just because an unborn baby has life, does not automatically make it immoral and illegal to take away that life. And that is correct.

The person who was sentenced to death for a crime has committed an act against humanity.

An unborn baby is not guilty of any crime.

Legal does not necessarily = moral.
10-12-2017 04:58 PM
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RE: HHS: When life begins
(10-12-2017 04:01 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  It is no more acceptable for a third party to end a human life in the womb than it is to murder a 3 year old child.


Your definition is potentially incomplete. Please expand it if so, or explicitly state that the following is also never ok to terminate a "life" as you have defined it:
- War
- Brain dead
- Capital punishment
- Self-defense
- Abortion from rape
- Abortion from incest
- Abortion from mortality risk to the mother
- "Mercy" abortion for genetic incompatibility with life (some genetic disorders are terminal but will take years before they kill off the person, some genetic disorders are fatal shortly after birth or even during gestation, etc etc).
10-12-2017 05:22 PM
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