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wahoowa Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 05:43 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 05:36 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Health care shouldn’t be determined by your Socio Economic Status. A kid with cancer is a kid with cancer Neanderthals. Adults you can talk to me about and I’ll listen. Just can’t stand the fact that the majority don’t care if a family can’t afford insurance.


There isn't enough money to pay for the healthcare of everybody in this country, let alone the world. Resources are scarce. How do you intend to allocate them? We can't pay for all the healthcare that everybody wants to consume. Because given the option they will degenerate and pass off the costs for their own health care -- often purely a problem because of their own decisions like obesity, alcohol consumption, and tobacco consumption -- to all of the rest of us.

Your argument falls even further apart when expanded beyond the artificial borders of the United States. I notice you didn't say "a kid with cancer IN THE UNITED STATES is a kid with cancer IN THE UNITED STATES." So are you on board with a global ObamaCare program because I assure you Mach you're in the 1% just by being a US citizen. Ready to start writing checks for 95% of your net worth to Africa? If not ... take a long cold stare into your hypocrisy and re-evaluate.

That long cold stare will last as long as two fingers of whiskey does. Then he'll double down with his amazing double standards.
10-12-2017 05:51 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #42
Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 01:28 PM)ARandomHerdFan Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 01:09 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  So what are you really mad about, Random? The fact that its an executive order or the fact that this is potentially a good development for people who have been screwed over by this failing piece of legislation?

I'm not mad at all over the executive order, and it'll be great if it helps people.

The annoyance is the absolute hypocrisy of both sides of the aisle when it comes to these things.

For Republicans/conservatives, when Obama signed executive orders, he was a "king" or a "dictator". Everything he signed was an abuse of power. Now that Trump is in office, executive orders are awesome.

For Democrats/liberals, just flip those two... they were awesome during Obama's tenure and are now the worst thing in the world. You can also throw in the constant "BUT BUSH SIGNED MORE" comments that tried to justify everything.


Doesn't it matter WHAT the executive order executes?

Whether it is, or potentially is a net positive for the American people?

And, for what it's worth this wasn't the naked end run around the legislative process that zerO so often used. This was/is a response, in part, to the failure of the stupid Republican swamp critters not being able to get their schit together on multiple attempts.

He tried the legislative route.

Congress failed.
10-12-2017 06:09 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #43
Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 02:11 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 02:04 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  One thing is for certain, Reason is always correct.


Smells like sarcasm. If it is, I await your rebuttal to these points, which I agree with:

Quote:Obamacare's government-created marketplaces were expensive and unstable before Trump took office, thanks in large part to the effect of its rules governing how insurers must cover preexisting conditions. But Trump's order won't ease that instability, and may well exacerbate it.

This would be true, however, of practically any effort to create more insurance options outside of its regulatory scheme. The law effectively requires total buy in, from market participants and from political overseers, in order to function. The result is situation in which the only way to avoid undermining the law is to prop it up. Obamacare is built to allow no alternative and no escape.


For various reasons, Trump's order may not work as well as intended. The order is short on details and will take time to work through the system and is unlikely to have a substantial immediate effect. It instructs the Department of Labor and Health and Human Services to consider finding ways to expand association health plans, and offers some broad suggests about how this might be accomplished but little in the way of specifics. As a result, the effort to spur the expansion of association health plans may produce limited results, with few new options coming online.

In addition, the executive order may create short-term confusion, since few if any new plans are likely to be available this year. The decision to expand these options by executive order leaves any newly created plans susceptible to undoing by a future administration that is more hostile to the idea. The idea is also virtually certain to spark legal challenge; exempting select plans from Obamacare's rules while leaving the overall regulatory infrastructure in place may not hold up in court.

There is also the possibility that Trump's plan will work too well, luring enough relatively healthy people out of Obamacare's insurance markets and producing a political backlash as premiums continue to rise and choices continue to decline. This is a plan that leaves many questions unanswered, and comes with substantial risks.

And to me, this would cause total and complete collapse of the individual market in < 12 months if association plans started coming fast and furious on the open marketplace. Great for me. But for the truly hideously unhealthy people ... people who already hit their $1m lifetime cap ... people with nasty systemic pre-existing conditions ... they're not going to like not being able to steal from me any more to pay for all the healthcare they want. And that needs to be headed off at the pass. And the best way to do that is to make it legal for *any citizen* to buy their way into medicare. Let medicare become the government catastrophic pool. And let those of us who opt for personal responsibility over theft of our fellow man be turned loose to freely associate and create prosperity.


I think your last part may well be where this heads.

What this does, I'm guessing, also allows the head of HHS to do one HECK of a lot of rule writing.

So that's where further potential innovations, options, whatever's can come from.

I guess we'll see with time. In theory, I like what this does A LOT. Theories often don't work in practice...
10-12-2017 06:24 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 05:24 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 12:19 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I hate the use of "legislative" executive orders....but this is so much common sense I can't believe this idiot congress screwed around so long that it required this.

Now can cross state lines for healthcare plans. Will be able to aggregate and access trade union and association plans. What Sen. Rand Paul was pushing all along.

Que the liberal anti trump talking points being emailed out from the mothership.

Now all that will be offered are Trump University Health Care plans that don't cover anything.

I suppose we can just ban weapons next time a loon shoots a bunch of people because these new plans won't cover mental illness

Trumpcare = Junk Care.

No healthcare plan worth having will be offered across a state line. And if it doesn't cover your pills, its not a healthcare plan.

Medicare doesn't cover pills.

Is it a health plan?
10-12-2017 06:35 PM
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EverRespect Online
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Post: #45
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 03:56 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:54 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Or let the selfish like GTS who could give two ***** about his countrymen who have fallen on hard times safe harbor until he falls on hard times. Let the govt subsidize the Obamacare markets. Have a VAT pay for it. This might work.

That sounds like a terrible way to control costs
Sweeping sand from one side of the room to the other.

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10-12-2017 06:47 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 06:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:56 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 03:54 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Or let the selfish like GTS who could give two ***** about his countrymen who have fallen on hard times safe harbor until he falls on hard times. Let the govt subsidize the Obamacare markets. Have a VAT pay for it. This might work.

That sounds like a terrible way to control costs
Sweeping sand from one side of the room to the other.

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What would happen is cost would spiral out of control even more than they already have. Look at student loans and universities. Feds get involved costs get out of control
10-12-2017 07:13 PM
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #47
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 12:52 PM)ARandomHerdFan Wrote:  I expected to see the same people who screamed "KING OBAMA! KING OBAMA!" and decried the use of executive orders come out and do the same for Trump.

Silly me for thinking anyone would be consistent. Blind partisanship rules the day on both sides.

Your butthurt outrage is hilarious, but allow me to tell you the difference between Oblunder and Trump and the EO's. Trump is undoing OBlunder's EO's with his own EO's. Nothing wrong with that.

For example, OBlunder failed to legislate DACA. He then then used his pen to get it done, despite telling everyone that it was illegal on his part. That is wrong. And funny how I dont recall your butthurt outrage over that, which would have been legitimate.


Trump, on the other hand, is using EO's to circumvent Oblunders EO's. Obamacare wasnt entirely passed by legislation. Part of it was constructed with EO's. Trump is simply using EO's to offset OBlunders EO's.

And the reason for your butthurt is because Trump has the power to offset OBlunder in that manner, because OBlunder failed to get everything passed via the law. Which is truly incompetance, considering he had a massive majority in the house and a filibuster proof senate to work with.
10-12-2017 07:22 PM
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Machiavelli Online
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Post: #48
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
From a purely political perspective I like your argument GTS. Where did you pick up that tact? First I ever heard that line of reasoning. I’m not jumping down that rabbit hole but I can appreciate the effort. Where does it stop? What’s the difference poor kid in a Los Angeles bario and a Tijuana one? That’s good. It really is.


Here’s my answer.
LI say we all pay a sales tax like they do in Canada. We do a hybrid system. A private public scenario.
10-12-2017 08:04 PM
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hburg Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
Does it get rid of the stupid tax penalty?
10-12-2017 08:08 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
No you will still be taxed for losing your job and the healthcare that comes with it
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 08:42 PM by solohawks.)
10-12-2017 08:41 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 08:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  From a purely political perspective I like your argument GTS. Where did you pick up that tact? First I ever heard that line of reasoning. I’m not jumping down that rabbit hole but I can appreciate the effort. Where does it stop? What’s the difference poor kid in a Los Angeles bario and a Tijuana one? That’s good. It really is.


Here’s my answer.
LI say we all pay a sales tax like they do in Canada. We do a hybrid system. A private public scenario.


Behind nearly every libertarian argument is a sober rational realistic understanding of economics in the real world. It's just straight up fantasy to think we can provide healthcare to everybody everywhere. Not gonna happen. The world isn't even CLOSE to being that prosperous or even that civilized. A libertarian may be carrying Ayn Rand and Frederic Bastiat books in the left hand ... but the right hand has books from F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, Adam Smith, and Ludwig von Mises.

And your answer still does nothing to abrogate my original point: The Canadian system is still too wildly expensive and wasteful to even pay for ITSELF in the long term much less be viable among the rest of the world which is on average quite a lot less prosperous than Canada. And Canada has the benefit of piggybacking off the innovations made in the much more lucrative US market. You need to jump down that rabbit hole. Because doing so will reveal and hopefully remove your hypocrisy on this issue. You can't go around saying we need more fairness and more spreading of wealth when you yourself ARE the 1% when viewed in a more complete (global) perspective. If we take the globe as a whole -- you ARE the monopoly man. Even if you're below the poverty line in the United States you're STILL in the 1%. Congrats Mach, you're filthy ****ing rich compared to the rest of the world. How does it feel to know your wealth is woefully insufficient to solve the world's problems? How does it feel to know that everybody else in the world looks at you as a rich entitled ungrateful ass unwilling to share your spoils with the rest of the planet no matter how hard you work for what you are able to scrape together? How does it feel to know that even if you handed over every penny to your name most of the planet would be ungrateful and simply ask for more?

Simply putting on blinders and pointing at the rich HERE doesn't fix anything here or in Africa. You can take all the wealth in this entire country and you still won't even cover health care costs for the African continent. What about those "spare" 2 to 3 billion Indians and Chinese leftover? Come on Mach you're standing at the edge of improving yourself mentally and politically. Man the **** up and swallow the red pill.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 08:47 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
10-12-2017 08:44 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 12:19 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I hate the use of "legislative" executive orders....but this is so much common sense I can't believe this idiot congress screwed around so long that it required this.

Now can cross state lines for healthcare plans. Will be able to aggregate and access trade union and association plans. What Sen. Rand Paul was pushing all along.

Que the liberal anti trump talking points being emailed out from the mothership.


Would not work when several insurance companies are not accepted by many medical professions. The majority of doctors, clinics, hospitals and pharmacies here in Arkansas only accept Blue Cross/Blue Shields since the other insurance companies refused or delay paying them. This is happening in several states which started long before Obamacare was passed.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 09:23 PM by DavidSt.)
10-12-2017 09:22 PM
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q5sys Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Healthcare Executive Order
(10-12-2017 08:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Even if you're below the poverty line in the United States you're STILL in the 1%. Congrats Mach, you're filthy ****ing rich compared to the rest of the world.

Not picking on Mach right now, but this is something that most American's that b*tch about the 'wealthy' fail to comprehend. I have friends that live in Namibia and I had the pleasure of visiting them back in 2004.

Anyone want to venture a guess what the 'average' namibian lives on every year? ~$2000 USD. And lets keep in mind the meaning for the word 'average'. The 'average' household income in the US is $59,039, yet if you go around to any small town in the US, you'll find that most people aren't living on $60K. The same goes for Namibia, the average is skewed up because of smaller % of people that make much much more than that.

Lets look at the GDP per capita figures for a bunch of countries...
For Namibia its ~$4,600 USD or about two times the actual average income... keep that in mind while we look at some other counties GDP per capita figures...
Lets pick a country in Africa that people would consider wealthy, like Egypt.
The average there is $3,400. But lets go with somewhere other than Africa. How about a nice country in Europe like Serbia... well the average there is $5,200. Hmm... this isn't going well... lets look at a nice 1st world country like Russia... $9,200.

People in America need to get some perspective on just how good they ACTUALLY have it, before they ***** about what they 'deserve' out of the pockets of those who make more than them.

Figures are UN figures and can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...per_capita
10-12-2017 09:32 PM
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