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No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
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braves95 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 08:31 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 10:34 PM)stc Wrote:  This may not be a popular opinion. Please don't take this as an endorsement for Watts. If the program hadn't been shut down, I see no way we have the facilities we have now. Clark would of had a very successful 2015 & would've been scooped up by a bigger program. In a year or so we'd have been right back where we started. The shutdown changed the narrative, without it none of this is happening.

A plane was ready to go pick up Jimbo Fisher and Carol Garrison had a conservative yet profitable business plan for an on campus stadium

Ray Watts was no hero and should be fired. The damage he did was much deeper than just athletics

Stuff like this is why I LOATHE the BOT. Could have had Jimbo Fisher. Multiple 7-figure donations turned down by the BOT. Personally I'd love to see UAB rock some Birmingham jerseys like they did in hoops a few years ago. Show the BOT that WE are our own school/team/community and we don't need them.
10-12-2017 11:32 AM
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mixduptransistor Offline
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Post: #22
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:32 AM)braves95 Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 08:31 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 10:34 PM)stc Wrote:  This may not be a popular opinion. Please don't take this as an endorsement for Watts. If the program hadn't been shut down, I see no way we have the facilities we have now. Clark would of had a very successful 2015 & would've been scooped up by a bigger program. In a year or so we'd have been right back where we started. The shutdown changed the narrative, without it none of this is happening.

A plane was ready to go pick up Jimbo Fisher and Carol Garrison had a conservative yet profitable business plan for an on campus stadium

Ray Watts was no hero and should be fired. The damage he did was much deeper than just athletics

Stuff like this is why I LOATHE the BOT. Could have had Jimbo Fisher. Multiple 7-figure donations turned down by the BOT. Personally I'd love to see UAB rock some Birmingham jerseys like they did in hoops a few years ago. Show the BOT that WE are our own school/team/community and we don't need them.

Herr Watts has banned the Birmingham jerseys from all athletics teams, including basketball. But, you know, he's still the savior of UAB Athletics and we should name something after him probably
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 11:37 AM by mixduptransistor.)
10-12-2017 11:37 AM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #23
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:16 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 09:17 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  2. Ray Watts shutting the program down is absolutely the best thing that ever happened.

No, it is far from "absolutely the best thing that ever happened"

The "absolutely best thing that could have happened" would be Carol Z. Garrison still president and UAB would be playing their third season on Gene Bartow Field at Legacy Stadium

Ray Watts shutting down the program did spur good outcomes, but Bill Clark was hired before it happened and I don't think the program would have been mired in mediocrity had the administration not been actively hostile. Things might not have accelerated as quickly as they did, and the outcome has turned out to be greater than anyone could have imagined, but we would all have been better off emotionally and financially had things turned out differently

You're confusing "what could have happened" with what actually happened and what would have happened. The admin would have been actively hostile, without a doubt. We would be in a much worse financial position had the shutdown not occurred. I know people just don't want to admit that as bad, as painful, as disgusting as it was (and I still believe it was all those things), the shutdown is the singular moment that put us on a different trajectory. That was the breaking of the eggs that made the delicious omelette we now have. Make no mistake- Ray Watts didn't shut us down to get this outcome, but the shutdown is the reason we have what we have. I will give you this- the hiring of Bill Clark is the other ingredient. He's the cheese in the omelette. Without him, this doesn't happen.

And look, I want him gone. I don't think he is a savior of the program. I don't trust him, I don't believe him, and I think he is a residual stain on this university. But facts are facts.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 11:42 AM by BatesUAB.)
10-12-2017 11:40 AM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #24
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:40 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 11:16 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 09:17 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  2. Ray Watts shutting the program down is absolutely the best thing that ever happened.

No, it is far from "absolutely the best thing that ever happened"

The "absolutely best thing that could have happened" would be Carol Z. Garrison still president and UAB would be playing their third season on Gene Bartow Field at Legacy Stadium

Ray Watts shutting down the program did spur good outcomes, but Bill Clark was hired before it happened and I don't think the program would have been mired in mediocrity had the administration not been actively hostile. Things might not have accelerated as quickly as they did, and the outcome has turned out to be greater than anyone could have imagined, but we would all have been better off emotionally and financially had things turned out differently

You're confusing "what could have happened" with what actually happened and what would have happened. The admin would have been actively hostile, without a doubt. We would be in a much worse financial position had the shutdown not occurred. I know people just don't want to admit that as bad, as painful, as disgusting as it was (and I still believe it was all those things), the shutdown is the singular moment that put us on a different trajectory. That was the breaking of the eggs that made the delicious omelette we now have. Make no mistake- Ray Watts didn't shut us down to get this outcome, but the shutdown is the reason we have what we have. I will give you this- the hiring of Bill Clark is the other ingredient. He's the cheese in the omelette. Without him, this doesn't happen.

And look, I want him gone. I don't think he is a savior of the program. I don't trust him, I don't believe him, and I think he is a residual stain on this university. But facts are facts.

That is like saying, I was mistreated and forcibly impoverished for 20 years. Finally, my oppressor put me in jail. Then, after 6 months, he let me out because he was under great pressure and scrutiny over his actions, including the past 20 years, and I was then able to work my way out of poverty. Getting thrown in jail was the best thing that ever happened to me!

No, the best thing that ever happened to you was that your oppressor got out of your way. Had he had done it 20 years ago, you wouldn't have been impoverished all those years.

The best thing that ever happened to UAB Football was that our BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way. To say it was due to the shutdown is to ignore the series of events that occurred for years leading up to the shutdown. Did the shutdown bring it all to a head? Yes. Maybe so. But please let's not act like we're better off than we would have been if we had not been oppressed to start with.

For starters, we would be in a better conference. By now, we would have better facilities, multiple bowl wins, maybe some conference titles. A new stadium? Who knows?

To recap, the shutdown was not good. The response to it was good. Let's put the credit in the right places.
10-12-2017 01:09 PM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #25
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
We're getting into a semantic argument here, but I'll go on for just a little longer. To keep talking about what didn't happen in the past, or what we should have been able to do, or where we would have been- that is all just speculative wishful thinking. Would we have been better off, in a better conference winning more games with more money IF we hadn't been oppressed? Yes. But you can't change the past. What happened happened. The defining moment has to be a moment that actually occurred.

I'm not saying the shutdown was good. It was painful, and it hurt me deeply. BUT- it was in fact the best thing that happened to us. You can act like we would end up where we are now eventually, but the facts don't bear that out. You say that the best thing was that the "BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way." The only reason that happened was the violent backlash after the shutdown.

Let me put this into a historical context. On December 6, 1941, the United States was mostly of an isolationist mindset. Only 23 years removed from the bloodshed of the Great War, we wanted nothing to do with WWII. Then Pearl Harbor happened. Not only did it change the opinion of the population regarding getting involved, on a tactical level it changed the way the Pacific was fought, and we ended up winning because of it. And now the light of freedom shines, etc. etc. Pearl Harbor was terrible, one of the darkest days in our history. But ultimately it was the best thing that could have happened. It got us into the war before all was lost in Europe, before Japan became unstoppable, and likely saved untold tens of millions of lives.

The shutdown was our Pearl Harbor. Ray Watts is our Yamamoto.
10-12-2017 01:49 PM
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mixduptransistor Offline
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Post: #26
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today
10-12-2017 01:49 PM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #27
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today

That's a fact.
10-12-2017 01:50 PM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #28
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:50 PM)BatesUAB Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today

That's a fact.

They are more out of the way than they were. They have been pushed back for now.
10-12-2017 01:54 PM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #29
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)BatesUAB Wrote:  BUT- it was in fact the best thing that happened to us. You can act like we would end up where we are now eventually, but the facts don't bear that out. You say that the best thing was that the "BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way." The only reason that happened was the violent backlash after the shutdown.

Let me put this into a historical context. On December 6, 1941, the United States was mostly of an isolationist mindset. Only 23 years removed from the bloodshed of the Great War, we wanted nothing to do with WWII. Then Pearl Harbor happened. Not only did it change the opinion of the population regarding getting involved, on a tactical level it changed the way the Pacific was fought, and we ended up winning because of it. And now the light of freedom shines, etc. etc. Pearl Harbor was terrible, one of the darkest days in our history. But ultimately it was the best thing that could have happened. It got us into the war before all was lost in Europe, before Japan became unstoppable, and likely saved untold tens of millions of lives.

The shutdown was our Pearl Harbor. Ray Watts is our Yamamoto.

You're right about semantics maybe. My point of contention is the bold statement above.

Was Pearl Harbor the best thing that ever happened to Europe since it brought the US into the war? No. The best thing that happened to Europe is that the Nazis were defeated by the Allies, including the US. Did Pearl Harbor spark that? Yes. But don't credit the Japanese. Credit the US and Allied response.

Don't credit the shutdown itself for the positive stuff. Without the response to it, we would still be shut down.

Why are we better off now after the shutdown? Because the Birmingham community fought back, and powerful people joined us because of that fight, and those powerful people pushed the BOT and Watts into bringing football back in the right way!

When you credit the shutdown for that, you diminish the role of the people who did the work.

I think I was wrong earlier. I said the best thing that ever happened to UAB Football was that the BOT got out of our way.

Actually, the best thing that ever happened to UAB Football is that the UAB Family stood up and fought for it! THAT is why we are better off now than ever before.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 02:04 PM by the Dragon.)
10-12-2017 02:03 PM
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UAB Band Dad Offline
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Post: #30
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
Yamamoto was a visionary, extremely competent at military planning. He executed a near-perfect surprise attack. He also warned the Japanese High Command that doing so would cause the U.S. to unite, and that once we had time to get our military and industrial production on a war footing that we would defeat the Japanese over time.

Ray Watts stood there with the BoT's hand up his butt and parroted the words they and their PR team supplied him. The fact that he still has a job at UAB is evidence of the Board's contempt for us and our powerlessness to administer our own affairs.
10-12-2017 02:39 PM
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UAB Band Dad Offline
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Post: #31
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 02:03 PM)the Dragon Wrote:  Actually, the best thing that ever happened to UAB Football is that the UAB Family stood up and fought for it! THAT is why we are better off now than ever before.

This. This times 100.

The best thing that happened with regard to the shutdown is that it absolutely fired up the UAB fans and students and mobilized people who had been lukewarm about UAB Athletics. It gave us a large stage to air out the sordid history of the UA BoT's repeated and deliberate actions to cripple our programs. Watt's other offenses, like his actions with respect to the Honors Program, also activated UAB supporters from the academic side who were not as concerned about athletics, but about Watts' executive decision making as a whole. It also drew the attention of the Birmingham business community, who thought that having football shut down at the city's economy driving major university would look bush league. They were right, it would. No football team in football crazy Alabama made zero sense to anyone but a few people on the BoT with their own agenda.

Special thanks are due to Justin Craft, Mike Goodrich, and the Gang of Seven, as well as to people like Don Hire, who put their money where it would show that the program had backing, as well as persuading, mobilizing and raising funds from other influential people in the Birmingham area who had no personal ties to UAB but saw the sense in having UAB Athletics as a point of civic pride. Their money and influence and the pressure that the Vocal Few maintained all the way through the shutdown turned the tide.

I would be remiss if I did not mention Bill Clark. He is a fine football coach, but more than that he is a leader and a fine Christian gentleman in all the best meanings of the term. I find it hard to believe that UAB Football would exist, let alone be in the much advanced position that it is in now, without Bill and Jennifer deciding to stay here and help fight for the program.

The BoT and Watts did not mean to spark this uprising against the norm in Alabama, but they certainly did.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 03:32 PM by UAB Band Dad.)
10-12-2017 02:55 PM
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rook360 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
Lets not forget that Watts also championed the new rule that sports programs at UAB have to operate within a certain amount of allotted money and can not/will not receive one more bit of money from the school. correct me if I'm wrong.
This was meant as a parting shot to football, but this can hurt other sports later if they cant fund their sport.
10-12-2017 07:09 PM
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BlazerPhil Offline
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Post: #33
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 07:09 PM)rook360 Wrote:  Lets not forget that Watts also championed the new rule that sports programs at UAB have to operate within a certain amount of allotted money and can not/will not receive one more bit of money from the school. correct me if I'm wrong.
This was meant as a parting shot to football, but this can hurt other sports later if they cant fund their sport.

For this reason alone, the BOT chuckles themselves to sleep at night. Because they "know" our funding will dry up.
10-13-2017 12:22 AM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #34
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 07:09 PM)rook360 Wrote:  Lets not forget that Watts also championed the new rule that sports programs at UAB have to operate within a certain amount of allotted money and can not/will not receive one more bit of money from the school. correct me if I'm wrong.
This was meant as a parting shot to football, but this can hurt other sports later if they cant fund their sport.

If I remember right, he capped the subsidy at $20 million, but this, as we have learned from guys like Andy Schwarz, is smoke and mirrors. The university charges the Athletic Department full price for its scholarships, even though that amount is WAY more than the actual COST of the athletes as students. It also doesn't account for walk-on athletes who pay full price for school and only attend UAB because of the opportunity to walk-on for their sport. How many band members, cheerleaders, dance team girls, and high school friends of athletes attend because of UAB Athletics? Without football, our enrollment dropped. When we added it back, it boomed. Those enrollment dollars can eat that subsidy fast!

Football makes money, even at UAB. I've laid it out here before and I won't re-hash it now, but it is true. Universities aren't scrambling to start football programs and move to FBS because it is a money-loser. It isn't.
10-13-2017 08:42 AM
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mixduptransistor Offline
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Post: #35
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-13-2017 08:42 AM)the Dragon Wrote:  It also doesn't account for walk-on athletes who pay full price for school and only attend UAB because of the opportunity to walk-on for their sport. How many band members, cheerleaders, dance team girls, and high school friends of athletes attend because of UAB Athletics? Without football, our enrollment dropped. When we added it back, it boomed. Those enrollment dollars can eat that subsidy fast!

Wait, are you claiming that the university charges the athletics budget for tuition for students who are paying tuition and also students who are not in athletics at all? The Department of Education would probably be incredibly interested to know that is happening
10-13-2017 08:52 AM
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Post: #36
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
Punkinhead didn't take any risk bringing UAB football back, so much as he had it shoved down his throat. Jeez, remember the press conference? It looked like a damn hostage situation. Hatton Smith is what kept it from feeling like a funeral.

**** Ray L. Punkinhead Watts, MD. **** him and the old money thugs who hold his leash.
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2017 08:45 AM by Smaug.)
10-14-2017 08:44 AM
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Post: #37
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
IF anyone thinks this is over they are sadly mistaken. It is imperative that we keep putting butts in seats. We are also up against the race today and some semi-pro ball to the west. They are monitoring attendance closely. You will see coordinated shots at out attendance again this week and it will grow louder. Going to games and getting more people to come needs to be of high importance to us. Let's keep this think over 23K.
10-14-2017 10:27 AM
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Matrix Offline
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Post: #38
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-11-2017 10:01 PM)UAB Band Dad Wrote:  Ray is very happy to let the "Fiscally responsible University President fights out of control football spending" narrative go out there. It's completely nauseating BS, but it looks better than "Lickspittle does Board of Trustee's dirty work".

He didn't take a risk. He was forced to bring it back, and the BoT was forced to shut up and let it happen. We had too much documentation and proof of what was really going on, and Ray had some of our biggest donors backing him into a corner of his office and telling him he'd never see another dime if he didn't change his tune.

It didn't hurt that his beloved "Campaign for UAB", the billion dollar fund raiser, was dead in the water, either.

Ray didn't know what he didn't know, and it bit him on the butt.
True that about his "Campaign" ... Donations for that bad boy was drying up at a record pace. I called in and my deductions for it pulled immediately after what he did, and I let them know it. Restore the teams, and they may get most of these donors back. It was a classic example of hitting them where it hurts the most. Because they hurt us badly with the stunt they pulled.
10-15-2017 07:52 PM
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