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OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
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cmett003 Online
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OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
http://www.13newsnow.com/traffic/norfolk.../481902943

They are currently doing studies to see which route is the most viable. IMO this is a no brainer, they need to by ODU to connect to the naval base. If they drop the ball on this you might not see the light rail go by ODU for several decades. If they do pick the ODU route they said it could be 6-8 years from now before you can take the light rail to ODU.
10-11-2017 03:20 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
VDOT gets this data all the time. I pulled it off of their website to get traffic info off of Hampton BLVD for a class project 2 years ago. Surprised that this info has not already been collected as part of the regular traffic surveys.
10-11-2017 03:51 PM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I would bet a lot of money that there is more traffic on Hampton Blvd and the ODU route vs the Church/Granby St route.
10-11-2017 03:58 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-11-2017 03:58 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I would bet a lot of money that there is more traffic on Hampton Blvd and the ODU route vs the Church/Granby St route.

Just remember the choice between the two will just be the west side option. They have already selected an eastside route. Only 1 route, east or west, will be selected. I think they're leaning towards the east, due to the development opportunities it will present.
10-11-2017 04:21 PM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.
10-11-2017 04:42 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-11-2017 04:42 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.

If it was their choice, they would already be extending it up military highway to the base. I know this because after the first study, they selected that alignment to present for grant money. The FTA said they needed to do a study on the west side.

And the initial line has spurred a fair amount of redevelopment. Granby is alive again. There are at least 6 new apartment buildings downtown and a couple in Fort Norfolk. That didn't happen until the line was open.

Edit; forgot about the arts district and the 2 new apartment buildings there. The rejuvenation of downtown Norfolk has been good to watch over the past 7 years.
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2017 07:09 PM by ODUDrunkard13.)
10-11-2017 06:54 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I went to a couple citizen listening sessions and made my point clear that the best way to make this successful is by going up the west side of the city. Its where all the citizens that would use light rail routinely live. So I hope that's what they pick. But I dont expect it.
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2017 07:00 PM by ODUDrunkard13.)
10-11-2017 06:57 PM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-11-2017 06:57 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I went to a couple citizen listening sessions and made my point clear that the best way to make this successful is by going up the west side of the city. Its where all the citizens that would use light rail routinely live. So I hope that's what they pick. But I dont expect it.

I hope there would be some kind of vote on this. Make no sense to bypass ODU especially when a new stadium is being built, students already complain about parking enough and there is not much land to build more parking. Also Hampton Blvd could use more development too.
10-12-2017 07:44 AM
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GhentFan Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-11-2017 04:42 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.

When they put the light rail through frog town in Saint Paul, MN (A pretty poor area) it spurred quite a bit of development. San Diego's light rail has also gone through poor areas and caused development to happen. If anything the rail results in increased property taxes in the area which may drive some people out of the area.


I'm still not a fan of Light Rail as there are future / pending technologies that may very well cost less and allow a greater reach in an area.
10-12-2017 07:51 AM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 07:51 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 04:42 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.

When they put the light rail through frog town in Saint Paul, MN (A pretty poor area) it spurred quite a bit of development. San Diego's light rail has also gone through poor areas and caused development to happen. If anything the rail results in increased property taxes in the area which may drive some people out of the area.


I'm still not a fan of Light Rail as there are future / pending technologies that may very well cost less and allow a greater reach in an area.

Like what?
10-12-2017 07:56 AM
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FantomVII Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 07:56 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 07:51 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 04:42 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.

When they put the light rail through frog town in Saint Paul, MN (A pretty poor area) it spurred quite a bit of development. San Diego's light rail has also gone through poor areas and caused development to happen. If anything the rail results in increased property taxes in the area which may drive some people out of the area.


I'm still not a fan of Light Rail as there are future / pending technologies that may very well cost less and allow a greater reach in an area.

Like what?

Maglev anyone? 05-stirthepot
10-12-2017 07:58 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 07:44 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 06:57 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I went to a couple citizen listening sessions and made my point clear that the best way to make this successful is by going up the west side of the city. Its where all the citizens that would use light rail routinely live. So I hope that's what they pick. But I dont expect it.

I hope there would be some kind of vote on this. Make no sense to bypass ODU especially when a new stadium is being built, students already complain about parking enough and there is not much land to build more parking. Also Hampton Blvd could use more development too.

Their goal isnt to make parking better at ODU. It's to get to the Naval base as cheaply as possible while allowing for the most revenue growth in property taxes. The east side route will also allow them to avoid having to buy a lot of property from citizens and deal with civic league blowback (Larchmont and Edgewater mainly).

As a west side homeowner, I hope either of the west side routes get selected. But everything points to the opposite.

The biggest development opportunity on the west side route is park place. I'm just not sure that is enough.
10-12-2017 08:04 AM
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EverRespect Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 07:51 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 04:42 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that goes down Military Hwy, where did you hear that? Putting a light rail through the hood doesnt equal big development. Just look at the current light rail. In norfolk its more about moving people not spurring development, there is just not that kind of money there like here in Charlotte. I am pretty familiar with the effects of light rail development. You need the light rail but you also need big investors and developers to pump money into the area.

When they put the light rail through frog town in Saint Paul, MN (A pretty poor area) it spurred quite a bit of development. San Diego's light rail has also gone through poor areas and caused development to happen. If anything the rail results in increased property taxes in the area which may drive some people out of the area.


I'm still not a fan of Light Rail as there are future / pending technologies that may very well cost less and allow a greater reach in an area.

This isn't San Diego or the Twin Cities.

Unless you live on the other side of one of the tunnels, traffic to and from downtown Norfolk is not bad at all, not to mention, most people in HR do not work downtown anymore. The need to redevelop depressed areas in Norfolk so people can take the train to work just isn't there. The main purpose of the light rail is recreational. None of the routes suggested will do a thing to help traffic issues in 757. In fact, it may create issues by becoming an obstacle. If they had expanded to Portsmouth when the new Midtown Tunnel was built, it probably would have spurred some redevelopment there. Same if they managed to get it to Hampton and Newport News. As is, you are going to spend a lot more time commuting taking the light rail than driving, probably more than double if you live in the 'burbs and attempt to park and ride, which they told us everyone was going to do! We have major tunnel problems in the area, but no problems driving around on secondary roads inside the "beltway". People aren't going to buy $300k condos on the railroad tracks in Huntersville so they can take the train to their call center and collection agency jobs, to tides games, or to have craft beers at Hells Kitchen. ODU students and Ghent hipsters will take it to the Tides games or for the beer. As I said, it serves no public good aside from recreation. That is fine if they are honest about it and the public buys in, but make no mistake, neither the starter line nor to Town Center nor any of the routes being considered for expansion will provide a single second of automodile traffic congestion relief.
10-12-2017 08:56 AM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 08:04 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 07:44 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 06:57 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I went to a couple citizen listening sessions and made my point clear that the best way to make this successful is by going up the west side of the city. Its where all the citizens that would use light rail routinely live. So I hope that's what they pick. But I dont expect it.

I hope there would be some kind of vote on this. Make no sense to bypass ODU especially when a new stadium is being built, students already complain about parking enough and there is not much land to build more parking. Also Hampton Blvd could use more development too.

Their goal isnt to make parking better at ODU. It's to get to the Naval base as cheaply as possible while allowing for the most revenue growth in property taxes. The east side route will also allow them to avoid having to buy a lot of property from citizens and deal with civic league blowback (Larchmont and Edgewater mainly).

As a west side homeowner, I hope either of the west side routes get selected. But everything points to the opposite.

The biggest development opportunity on the west side route is park place. I'm just not sure that is enough.

The property tax argument is invalid because property taxes will go up no matter where it ends up. If property value goes up 10% on a 600k house in Larchmont that is more money for the city than if it goes up 10% on a 100k house off of military highway.

Im not saying their goal is to help parking at ODU but you can kill 2 birds with one stone. The traffic issue from the naval base wont be alleviated by the western route bc if im coming from the navy base and I want to go downtown or vice versa, im not going to take some western route that could take me way out of the way and could be 30-45 min. Im going to drive or Uber the 10-15 min route down Hampton Blvd.

The light rail needs to be where the most people will use it and will be convenient for a large number of people. That means what ever the most walkable areas are, meaning Ghent, ODU and Larchmont. As Ever said "recreational". Because to use the light rail you literally have to walk on to the train. Why do you think they are extending the light rail in Charlotte to UNCC, when there are tons of other area that need development, because they knew college kids would use it to get downtown.

I see it here in Charlotte, people that use the light rail mainly are people that work uptown (downtown) because parking is expensive as hell. Development spurred along the light rail because developers put high end apartments right on the light rail near uptown (which was an industrial area, not necessarily a bad area or the hood) and people came because it was a cool area and they could live on the light rail (stations are literally right next to the apartments) and take the light rail to their uptown banker jobs. Further down in the not so nice areas. Development is still struggling 10+ years later. At the end of the rail is the park and rides which are nice because you can park your car in the garage or lot and take the light rail to a football, baseball or basketball game. But with the coming of Uber and Lyft. People dont take the light rail unless its convenient to do so, otherwise they will just take an Uber. The light rail can be a pain to use and so only certain people will take it for certain things. ODU, ghent, Larchmont, and the naval base will use the light rail. If someone build a nice apartment on military hwy there is no way im living out there even if there is a light rail. The city has an unrealistic vision of what will happen development wise.

Not to mention I think the ODU route would be cheaper because its a shorter distance to the navy base.
10-12-2017 09:32 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I already stated that I think it should be on the west since the folks that live there (like myself) are more likely to use it. Very few military folks actually live on the eastern route. It's main use would just be people going to the airport. But I do see the redevelopment opportunities.

As for your property tax example. You're assuming they will go up equally percentage wise in value. Hard to prove. You're also assuming there is an equal amount of properties that would be effected on either route (east side is longer, therefore it would go by more property). Further, Larchmont, Ghent, CPRV, Edgewater (West side) is already going up in value. You don't need to do anything to boost that. So, you focus on an area that isnt seeing equal increases in value.

As for the ODU route being cheaper, it would require more bridges, more land buys in more valuable areas and more legal work. Very little chance that it is cheaper.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 09:53 AM by ODUDrunkard13.)
10-12-2017 09:52 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Here is the city's presentation on redeveloping military circle;
https://issuu.com/norfolk/docs/presentat...ty_meeting
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 10:07 AM by ODUDrunkard13.)
10-12-2017 10:05 AM
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cmett003 Online
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
The route up hampton blvd needs to be the street car type like near the Scope on Monticello. Only need 1 bridge to get by the tracks on 21st st. There is a way to do things that save money.

Even if taxes go up a fraction in larchmont vs Military hwy I think the dollar amounts would favor the west side. I also think its crazy to assume value would skyrocket on militart hwy. There are more problems over there than what a light rail can fix.
10-12-2017 10:13 AM
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Monarchblue Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I think Military Circle is clearly the top priority for the current NFK Council, and that they think light rail is a vital part of that redevelopment. I tend to agree Cmett that this is misguided, however. Miltary Cirlcle/JANAF is a complete mess, and just adding light rail and redeveloping Military Circle into something like a Town Center will not change that fact. Yes, something needs to happen there, but I think it is probably a 50+ year plan. They need to get everything around Military Circle Mall taken care of before they move on to anything else in that area.
10-12-2017 10:15 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I hope they see the value in the west, selfishly, it would make this an even better place to live. But practically everything they are releasing in regards to the future focuses on military circle.

http://wtkr.com/2017/01/24/norfolk-city-...y-highway/
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 10:35 AM by ODUDrunkard13.)
10-12-2017 10:33 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(10-12-2017 10:15 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I think Military Circle is clearly the top priority for the current NFK Council, and that they think light rail is a vital part of that redevelopment. I tend to agree Cmett that this is misguided, however. Miltary Cirlcle/JANAF is a complete mess, and just adding light rail and redeveloping Military Circle into something like a Town Center will not change that fact. Yes, something needs to happen there, but I think it is probably a 50+ year plan. They need to get everything around Military Circle Mall taken care of before they move on to anything else in that area.

They are certainly working on it. Converting the mall into office space and getting movement mortgage and sentara to move in was a great job by the city. Janaf needs to be next.
10-12-2017 10:42 AM
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