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I see your point, but I think the current reality should carry more weight than trying to predict what the paradigm is going to be in 50 years. 50 years from now we may well be commuting to a Norfolk conference room by putting on a virtual reality headset in Kalamazoo, MI. 50 years ago, many thought we'd be commuting in flying cars like the Jetsons. Even if we are commuting via virtual reality, you will still have a bunch of university students, sailors, and young professionals trying to get to a downtown central business district to mingle. Johnny Suburbonite, his Stepford wife, and his 4 kids will not have much reason to get downtown often if Johnny can conduct most of his business from home.

(03-26-2018 08:56 AM)bit_9 Wrote:  Some things don't give you an immediate roi or are difficult or take a long time but they're worth doing because they bring value or long term gain. Plan now because people aren't stopping having kids, the population will increase and condense so get the right of ways and arteries done now or it'll be that much more difficult in 50 years. Unless we think this region will just continue to expand horizontal one strip mall and neighborhood at a time west?

Posted from mobile device. Hopefully it's coherent.

The problem with this argument is that most people who pay close attention to these types of things don't think LR is the long term solution. If we are to act on your perspective, which I think is a very reasonable one, we should be preparing for a self driving, car on demand future, because that is how people will move through suburban areas like HR in the future.

(03-26-2018 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 08:23 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 05:04 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  This cannot be compared to tone DC metro. DC had a centralized area of business and real traffic problems. Hampton Roads has real traffic problems, but they are at the tunnels, which none of the plans address. Driving around where the starter line is and on every expansion route I have seen is not a big deal. DC had to act on a need. Norfolk does not have a need. I do think it might be able to break even and serve the citizens of it went up the West side. That is their best chance of saving the thing.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You are kidding right? Have you tried to drive the 264/64 interchange to Greenbriar during rush hour? It sucks. Traffic stinks. When I worked at ODU in 1996, and commuted to and from Chicks Beach (a whopping 12 - 15 miles depending on route) it took me 15 minutes to get to work and 45-60 to get home. I am sure it is worse now. Hampton Roads is like Charlotte and Atlanta a primarily suburban region with lacking public transit options and a ton of traffic that is only getting worse. We cannot build new roads forever, we have to embrace other options for getting people around. The Tide is a good start, it just needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations.

Good points, but to my knowledge, there are no plans to bring it to Greenbrier or Chick's Beach. The suburban setting really makes it difficult. When you factor in the time to drive to a central location (let's say Chick's beach to Little Creek or Hickory to Greenbriar), park, and ride on a train that for much of the trip shares the road with cars, get to a destination, and walk to work, I don't think you'll save any time, even at 45 minutes or an hour. In other words, we agree it needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations. That would be the Ghent/ODU route, IMO.

When I lived downtown, I actually worked at Northampton/Military and took Princess Anne the whole way. Certainly not a very sceneic route, but a reliable 15 minutes day in and day out and no 64/264 interchange. One of my friends works downtown and lives by the Greenbrier Country Club and typically crosses the river ar Brambleton and cuts through South Norfolk. Says it isn't that bad taking that route unless he gets stuck with hoard trying to get to a Tide's game.

I never had a bad commute living over there. That said, I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure getting on the Navy base at rush hour is hell. The base is very large though and I wonder how they will address that as well as the fact that you need a CAC card to get on. My guess is the train will have to stop just outside the gate, then a shuttle take you in. Depending on where your building is within the base, it could take upward of 30 minutes to get to your office after the LRT drops you off outside. If the train actually entered the base and looped around it with multiple stops, I could see it working... but that would mean anyone could get on base and I don't think the Navy would allow that.

I used to take the light rail in San Diego to the 32nd base and walk to my ship. Took a while but it was nice not having a car for the 3 years I lived in SD. That being said I think the money being used for light rail in Hampton Roads could be better used in other transportation technologies.

Automated buses, cabs etc... are not that far down the road. Say even 10-15 years from now is when something realistic hits market. That will probably be faster than any expansion of light rail, plus it will serve the entire community not just specific regions of it.

(03-26-2018 09:46 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 08:23 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 05:04 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  This cannot be compared to tone DC metro. DC had a centralized area of business and real traffic problems. Hampton Roads has real traffic problems, but they are at the tunnels, which none of the plans address. Driving around where the starter line is and on every expansion route I have seen is not a big deal. DC had to act on a need. Norfolk does not have a need. I do think it might be able to break even and serve the citizens of it went up the West side. That is their best chance of saving the thing.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You are kidding right? Have you tried to drive the 264/64 interchange to Greenbriar during rush hour? It sucks. Traffic stinks. When I worked at ODU in 1996, and commuted to and from Chicks Beach (a whopping 12 - 15 miles depending on route) it took me 15 minutes to get to work and 45-60 to get home. I am sure it is worse now. Hampton Roads is like Charlotte and Atlanta a primarily suburban region with lacking public transit options and a ton of traffic that is only getting worse. We cannot build new roads forever, we have to embrace other options for getting people around. The Tide is a good start, it just needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations.

Good points, but to my knowledge, there are no plans to bring it to Greenbrier or Chick's Beach. The suburban setting really makes it difficult. When you factor in the time to drive to a central location (let's say Chick's beach to Little Creek or Hickory to Greenbriar), park, and ride on a train that for much of the trip shares the road with cars, get to a destination, and walk to work, I don't think you'll save any time, even at 45 minutes or an hour. In other words, we agree it needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations. That would be the Ghent/ODU route, IMO.

When I lived downtown, I actually worked at Northampton/Military and took Princess Anne the whole way. Certainly not a very sceneic route, but a reliable 15 minutes day in and day out and no 64/264 interchange. One of my friends works downtown and lives by the Greenbrier Country Club and typically crosses the river ar Brambleton and cuts through South Norfolk. Says it isn't that bad taking that route unless he gets stuck with hoard trying to get to a Tide's game.

I never had a bad commute living over there. That said, I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure getting on the Navy base at rush hour is hell. The base is very large though and I wonder how they will address that as well as the fact that you need a CAC card to get on. My guess is the train will have to stop just outside the gate, then a shuttle take you in. Depending on where your building is within the base, it could take upward of 30 minutes to get to your office after the LRT drops you off outside. If the train actually entered the base and looped around it with multiple stops, I could see it working... but that would mean anyone could get on base and I don't think the Navy would allow that.

I used to take the light rail in San Diego to the 32nd base and walk to my ship. Took a while but it was nice not having a car for the 3 years I lived in SD. That being said I think the money being used for light rail in Hampton Roads could be better used in other transportation technologies.

Automated buses, cabs etc... are not that far down the road. Say even 10-15 years from now is when something realistic hits market. That will probably be faster than any expansion of light rail, plus it will serve the entire community not just specific regions of it.

I agree, but to be a viable region for the future, we need to have multi modal options for public transportation. Look at DC, buses, metro, and now trolley cars to go along with all the Cabs, Uber, and Lyft. I understand it is metropolis and Hampton Roads is sprawling, but good decisions of all kinds do not put all the eggs in one basket.

(03-26-2018 09:34 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 08:56 AM)bit_9 Wrote:  Some things don't give you an immediate roi or are difficult or take a long time but they're worth doing because they bring value or long term gain. Plan now because people aren't stopping having kids, the population will increase and condense so get the right of ways and arteries done now or it'll be that much more difficult in 50 years. Unless we think this region will just continue to expand horizontal one strip mall and neighborhood at a time west?

Posted from mobile device. Hopefully it's coherent.

The problem with this argument is that most people who pay close attention to these types of things don't think LR is the long term solution. If we are to act on your perspective, which I think is a very reasonable one, we should be preparing for a self driving, car on demand future, because that is how people will move through suburban areas like HR in the future.

that's very true. we're already looking at ideas for how to re-purpose parking garages. pods+ mass transit in population centers seems inevitable. But cars aren't going away. Especially in areas outside of those areas. But once you reach a certain point inside of a beltway you leave your car at a station. So it's definitely got to be a mix.

Another thing to look at: Automated cars don't remove traffic from the road, and in fact would probably add cars to it. When it comes to impact on traffic per person, mass transit solutions like light rail and bus-rapid transit (with dedicated lanes) are some of the best.

I think Norfolk needs to think somewhat strategically with their next expansion. The east side might have a better ROI long term, but there is a serious and significant PR problem with The Tide right now. If they can build out the West side through ODU and the Base, I think ridership will go up (by a lot), and suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier to continue to expand the system.

(03-26-2018 12:49 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Another thing to look at: Automated cars don't remove traffic from the road, and in fact would probably add cars to it. When it comes to impact on traffic per person, mass transit solutions like light rail and bus-rapid transit (with dedicated lanes) are some of the best.

I think Norfolk needs to think somewhat strategically with their next expansion. The east side might have a better ROI long term, but there is a serious and significant PR problem with The Tide right now. If they can build out the West side through ODU and the Base, I think ridership will go up (by a lot), and suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier to continue to expand the system.

The expectation is that the regulation of traffic that autonomous cars are able to provide would significantly reduce congestion, even if there are potentially more cars on the roads.

(03-26-2018 12:56 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 12:49 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Another thing to look at: Automated cars don't remove traffic from the road, and in fact would probably add cars to it. When it comes to impact on traffic per person, mass transit solutions like light rail and bus-rapid transit (with dedicated lanes) are some of the best.

I think Norfolk needs to think somewhat strategically with their next expansion. The east side might have a better ROI long term, but there is a serious and significant PR problem with The Tide right now. If they can build out the West side through ODU and the Base, I think ridership will go up (by a lot), and suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier to continue to expand the system.

The expectation is that the regulation of traffic that autonomous cars are able to provide would significantly reduce congestion, even if there are potentially more cars on the roads.

I think it would depend on a couple of factors. What percentage of cars on the road are automated? Would ride-sharing automated vehicles be encouraged? Are the automated vehicles connected together via a network that can create the most efficient path for all of those on the system, or will each automated vehicle be independent of all the others? Will these cars park, or drop off passengers? Etc.

Assuming that there's still a significant percentage of human drivers and no network to connect automated vehicles, I'd say that there's still a place for mass transit to thrive in.

(03-26-2018 01:04 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 12:56 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 12:49 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Another thing to look at: Automated cars don't remove traffic from the road, and in fact would probably add cars to it. When it comes to impact on traffic per person, mass transit solutions like light rail and bus-rapid transit (with dedicated lanes) are some of the best.

I think Norfolk needs to think somewhat strategically with their next expansion. The east side might have a better ROI long term, but there is a serious and significant PR problem with The Tide right now. If they can build out the West side through ODU and the Base, I think ridership will go up (by a lot), and suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier to continue to expand the system.

The expectation is that the regulation of traffic that autonomous cars are able to provide would significantly reduce congestion, even if there are potentially more cars on the roads.

I think it would depend on a couple of factors. What percentage of cars on the road are automated? Would ride-sharing automated vehicles be encouraged? Are the automated vehicles connected together via a network that can create the most efficient path for all of those on the system, or will each automated vehicle be independent of all the others? Will these cars park, or drop off passengers? Etc.

Assuming that there's still a significant percentage of human drivers and no network to connect automated vehicles, I'd say that there's still a place for mass transit to thrive in.

True, and those are the things that I believe state and local governments should be working to answer.

Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

This makes it sound like they're presenting the western route (or a no-go) they selected;

Quote:HRT will bring forward the results of the analysis and a recommendation as to whether Alternative 7, Alternative 12, or a No-Build Option from the Westside Study area should move forward into the Environmental Review Process, as we look toward the future of high-capacity transit in the City of Norfolk.

Ah. Well then. I'll still be in attendance either way.

Maybe there'll be a public comments section if they recommend alternative 12?

Why is the western route going up Monticello instead of going from the hospital/EVMS to ODU and the Base? Seems connecting those three major points would be a priority. The Monticello/27th street route seems to bypass a lot of important stops and population centers.

(03-26-2018 12:49 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Another thing to look at: Automated cars don't remove traffic from the road, and in fact would probably add cars to it. When it comes to impact on traffic per person, mass transit solutions like light rail and bus-rapid transit (with dedicated lanes) are some of the best.

I think Norfolk needs to think somewhat strategically with their next expansion. The east side might have a better ROI long term, but there is a serious and significant PR problem with The Tide right now. If they can build out the West side through ODU and the Base, I think ridership will go up (by a lot), and suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier to continue to expand the system.

Lots of studies and articles have shown that automated cars will go a long way in reducing traffic.

Quick google search:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/60784...g-traffic/

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechcons...ke-a-while

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauriewinkl...92d39b1f9b

http://www.techzone360.com/topics/techzo...affic.htm#

This one has mixed views: http://www.govtech.com/fs/Will-Driverles...affic.html

https://www.rdmag.com/news/2017/05/study...affic-jams

If you don't want to read

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7X-UKm9kw

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

I for one hope it goes down Hampton simply as it the presence of the light rail might result some cars moving over to other main N/S roads. Hampton has too many cars and too many kids not paying attention.

(03-26-2018 02:01 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

This makes it sound like they're presenting the western route (or a no-go) they selected;

Quote:HRT will bring forward the results of the analysis and a recommendation as to whether Alternative 7, Alternative 12, or a No-Build Option from the Westside Study area should move forward into the Environmental Review Process, as we look toward the future of high-capacity transit in the City of Norfolk.

Yeah... This looks like they're pushing a "no build" for the west side. No Colley Ave, no 21st street, makes me think they've got their mind made up on an eastern route. Hopefully with a spur to the airport.

(03-27-2018 05:11 AM)ODUi Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 02:01 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

This makes it sound like they're presenting the western route (or a no-go) they selected;

Quote:HRT will bring forward the results of the analysis and a recommendation as to whether Alternative 7, Alternative 12, or a No-Build Option from the Westside Study area should move forward into the Environmental Review Process, as we look toward the future of high-capacity transit in the City of Norfolk.

Yeah... This looks like they're pushing a "no build" for the west side. No Colley Ave, no 21st street, makes me think they've got their mind made up on an eastern route. Hopefully with a spur to the airport.

I was wrong. I went to the site and they're only at phase 3 of the Westside extension study, which is defined as "Refine Reasonable Alignment Alternatives."
https://gohrt.com/about/development/norf...sit-study/

(03-26-2018 02:46 PM)monarx Wrote:  Why is the western route going up Monticello instead of going from the hospital/EVMS to ODU and the Base? Seems connecting those three major points would be a priority. The Monticello/27th street route seems to bypass a lot of important stops and population centers.

Here is their explanation on how they selected the 2 routes;
https://gohrt.com/wp-content/uploads/201...170921.pdf

(03-26-2018 08:50 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

I for one hope it goes down Hampton simply as it the presence of the light rail might result some cars moving over to other main N/S roads. Hampton has too many cars and too many kids not paying attention.

The third crossing would be the best thing for Hampton Blvd. All those trucks and the slow downs that come with them would be removed from the area between Terminal and Downtown. The ODU area would become much quieter, which would be a good thing for the campus I think.

(03-27-2018 01:06 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 08:50 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(03-26-2018 01:46 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  Also, an FYI to everyone. There'll be a few meetings talking about which preferred alternate route for the WESTERN side should move forward (April 16th/April 19th). Right now there are two options for the westside route:

Alternative 7: Monticello / Hampton (PDF)
Alternative 12: Church / Granby (PDF)

Alternative 7 is the one that goes by ODU and Ghent. Alternative 12 basically bypasses both. I know that we all don't agree whether the Tide should be expanded East or West, but I am certain we agree that if the western side is built, it NEEDS to go by ODU. So please please please please head out to these events and make your voice heard to support Alternative 7 and ODU. If you go, please mention why ODU is such an important boost to the light rail and Norfolk in general.

https://mailchi.mp/hrtransit/norfolk-wes...68e9b16225

I for one hope it goes down Hampton simply as it the presence of the light rail might result some cars moving over to other main N/S roads. Hampton has too many cars and too many kids not paying attention.

The third crossing would be the best thing for Hampton Blvd. All those trucks and the slow downs that come with them would be removed from the area between Terminal and Downtown. The ODU area would become much quieter, which would be a good thing for the campus I think.

The biggest positive the 3rd crossing would provide is a tunnel going west that is high enough for all trailers. As it is, they have to stop both lanes to allow trailers to drive the wrong way on the east tunnel in order to cross the HRBT going west.