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OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
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Monarchist13 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 08:20 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 04:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 03:16 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 02:42 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:48 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  That development was well underway long before the Tide and they are having to pump millions into the area to keep it afloat, even with the Tide. If I have my house landscaped and then spend $50k on a new roof, windows, and siding and sell it, I can't claim it sold because of the landscaping.

Proponents of the Tide told us it was going to be one big beautiful "mix-use" development from downtown to Newtown Road. What happened to that?

No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.

There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.

This is simply nonsense. Likley complete fabrication.

Yet none of you can refute any of it. You have a Wells Fargo building, a Buffalo Wild Wings, and a few other chains from the city bought Waterside. Nobody wants to live off Military Highway. LRT didn't spur any development. Development taking place when the city is taking 80% of the risk has nothing to do with LRT. Facts are facts.

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03-23-2018 08:35 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #82
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 08:35 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 08:20 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 04:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 03:16 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 02:42 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.

There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.

This is simply nonsense. Likley complete fabrication.

Yet none of you can refute any of it. You have a Wells Fargo building, a Buffalo Wild Wings, and a few other chains from the city bought Waterside. Nobody wants to live off Military Highway. LRT didn't spur any development. Development taking place when the city is taking 80% of the risk has nothing to do with LRT. Facts are facts.

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No sense in arguing with someone that doesn't recognize any differing opinion.

I recognized some development has taken place downtown. Have you recognized a single point of mine?

Mod edit; check your PMs.
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(This post was last modified: 03-23-2018 09:56 PM by Monarchist13.)
03-23-2018 08:45 PM
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Monarchist13 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 08:45 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 08:35 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 08:20 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 04:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 03:16 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.

This is simply nonsense. Likley complete fabrication.

Yet none of you can refute any of it. You have a Wells Fargo building, a Buffalo Wild Wings, and a few other chains from the city bought Waterside. Nobody wants to live off Military Highway. LRT didn't spur any development. Development taking place when the city is taking 80% of the risk has nothing to do with LRT. Facts are facts.

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No sense in arguing with someone that doesn't recognize any differing opinion.

I recognized some development has taken place downtown. Have you recognized a single point of mine?


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I recognized that the development near NSU hasn't happened but I added that the St Paul re-development should impact that positively. I can see how that post got lost in the shuffle, however.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2018 09:57 PM by Monarchist13.)
03-23-2018 09:31 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #84
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 04:36 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 04:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:43 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:20 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:09 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  How long has it been since you were on Military? And what stretch of it were you on?

I dont live in Norfolk anymore but was on Military last year. The area is still crappy. Janaf area is still a dump. No one goes to Military Circle mall (amazon is killing all malls across US). The stretch between 64 and Little Creek hasnt changed in decades. You think if the put a light rail there its going to magically transform that whole area? If im a young person moving to norfolk why the hell would I live over there?

https://localtvwtkr.files.wordpress.com/...vision.pdf

Am I seeing this incorrectly. That shows a redeveloped JANAF, but it's dated 2016.. well before it was bought earlier this year.

I don't understand the question. It's just a study/vision for military highway. Though it's clear they want light rail there.

Also, the CEO of the company who bought it cited light rail as one of the reasons it was a good investment. I'm guessing this vision for the area helped sell the property;
http://pilotonline.com/inside-business/n...389e3.html

I knew I had seen that picture on the first page of that pdf before.
It's been a while since I read the article (linked below). I had incorrectly remembered that graphic as something that the new owners created, and not the city.

https://southsidedaily.com/business/2018...wner-city/


I wonder how much the cities plans for Military Highway, specifically JANAF played into the purchase of the property and the owners announcement of redevelopment.
03-23-2018 09:33 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #85
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
So nothing counts if the City partners with a developer to build? You realize this doesnt make sense, right? Cordish still has a massive investment in Waterside. They say they have no risk is completely false.

The Main. Hilton. All the new restaurants on Granby. Waterside, Icon. All the buidling that have been redeveloped by Buddy Gadams.
03-24-2018 08:06 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #86
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-24-2018 08:06 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  So nothing counts if the City partners with a developer to build? You realize this doesnt make sense, right? Cordish still has a massive investment in Waterside. They say they have no risk is completely false.

The Main. Hilton. All the new restaurants on Granby. Waterside, Icon. All the buidling that have been redeveloped by Buddy Gadams.

I just don't buy the narrative that LRT plays any role. When you have an $8M investment in the $40M project and the City of Norfolk takes on the rest of the risk, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the reason the project moved forward was anything but the City's $32M. I am unable to make that jump. I think if these developments were occurring because developers are falling all over themselves to build stuff on the tracks, the city would not have make these investments. Instead, they could pump that money into blighted, high crime areas that need it or older areas that could use renovating (I applaud the Wards Corner effort). Same could be said of Peninsula Town Center, Power Plant, Newport News City Center, Newtown in Williamsburg, or dozens of other projects in the area that aren't 6 blocks from the train.

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03-24-2018 08:47 AM
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elon77 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
If they could figure out how to get that thing to the Bowers Hill part of Chesapeake it could be a winner. MONEY MONEY ........MONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY!
03-24-2018 09:55 AM
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Monarchist13 Offline
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Post: #88
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-24-2018 09:55 AM)elon77 Wrote:  If they could figure out how to get that thing to the Bowers Hill part of Chesapeake it could be a winner. MONEY MONEY ........MONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY!

If you had to ride through downtown from Bowers Hill to the Navy Station, that would be a long ride to work. Another reason they want to do the east side route. Much faster when they don't have to worry about stop lights.
03-24-2018 10:12 AM
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ODU2017 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
It makes no sense to have a mass transit that does not go to airport. It was a stupid decision in Washington DC and has been recently fixed at massive cost.

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03-24-2018 10:51 PM
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ODU2017 Offline
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Post: #90
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 11:30 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:19 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  Has the city made a decision on which western route they are going to endorse before the next study to compare it to the eastern route.

Damn I hope this thing goes to ODU. Would be so stupid otherwise.

As soon as I hear anything or it's made public, I will post it.

As a homeowner of the west side, I hope it goes through ODU. Also, the people who are more likely to use it live on the west side of the city. But development is a major factor and there are a lot more opportunities on the east side of the city.
The right of way is cheaper and there is less flooding risk on the east. I would prefer the west too but I don't see it happening.

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03-24-2018 10:55 PM
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ODUDJ96 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Who actually rides the Tide regularly for meaningful travel? Not me nor anyone I know - although I live in VB (but used to work in downtown Norfolk). I’ve been meaning to take my kids as a novelty. Complete boondoggle. Could have spent the money building an elite arena at the beach!:)
03-25-2018 04:33 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #92
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I have. I prefer public transit
03-25-2018 04:42 PM
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ODUDJ96 Offline
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Post: #93
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I prefer public transit, too. The Tide seems to only appeal to such a small portion of the population. When I worked in Norfolk, it didn’t make sense to drive to Newton Road and then commute in. It was just significantly easier and more efficient to drive all the way in and pay a monthly garage parking fee. I can see why VB turned it down. Running the Tide from Newton through “town center” to Atlantic Ave only serves the tourist and novelty local travellers (and a handful of VB biz travellers).
03-25-2018 04:59 PM
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bit_9 Offline
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Post: #94
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Yeah it needs to get to population centers. Greenbrier, Ghent, colonial place, kings grants etc. Where folks that love there have a short walk, bike ride, etc. Otherwise there isn't a lot of value.

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(This post was last modified: 03-25-2018 05:28 PM by bit_9.)
03-25-2018 05:27 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #95
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
I park at Milirary and take in or something like that. But, I believe the comp plan has it out to greenbrier and i would be getting lit and taking the Tide all the time.
03-25-2018 05:37 PM
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Post: #96
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
That’s why it’s a “starter line”. It’s rather useless as a mass transit tool now. But as it gets more built out and expanded, its potential is unlimited. The DC metro was much smaller than it is now when it started out too. Until LRT expands to other population centers it will not work.
03-25-2018 05:41 PM
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Post: #97
OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
This cannot be compared to tone DC metro. DC had a centralized area of business and real traffic problems. Hampton Roads has real traffic problems, but they are at the tunnels, which none of the plans address. Driving around where the starter line is and on every expansion route I have seen is not a big deal. DC had to act on a need. Norfolk does not have a need. I do think it might be able to break even and serve the citizens of it went up the West side. That is their best chance of saving the thing.

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03-26-2018 05:04 AM
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BigBlueMonarch Offline
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Post: #98
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-26-2018 05:04 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  This cannot be compared to tone DC metro. DC had a centralized area of business and real traffic problems. Hampton Roads has real traffic problems, but they are at the tunnels, which none of the plans address. Driving around where the starter line is and on every expansion route I have seen is not a big deal. DC had to act on a need. Norfolk does not have a need. I do think it might be able to break even and serve the citizens of it went up the West side. That is their best chance of saving the thing.

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You are kidding right? Have you tried to drive the 264/64 interchange to Greenbriar during rush hour? It sucks. Traffic stinks. When I worked at ODU in 1996, and commuted to and from Chicks Beach (a whopping 12 - 15 miles depending on route) it took me 15 minutes to get to work and 45-60 to get home. I am sure it is worse now. Hampton Roads is like Charlotte and Atlanta a primarily suburban region with lacking public transit options and a ton of traffic that is only getting worse. We cannot build new roads forever, we have to embrace other options for getting people around. The Tide is a good start, it just needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations.
03-26-2018 08:23 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #99
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-26-2018 08:23 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(03-26-2018 05:04 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  This cannot be compared to tone DC metro. DC had a centralized area of business and real traffic problems. Hampton Roads has real traffic problems, but they are at the tunnels, which none of the plans address. Driving around where the starter line is and on every expansion route I have seen is not a big deal. DC had to act on a need. Norfolk does not have a need. I do think it might be able to break even and serve the citizens of it went up the West side. That is their best chance of saving the thing.

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You are kidding right? Have you tried to drive the 264/64 interchange to Greenbriar during rush hour? It sucks. Traffic stinks. When I worked at ODU in 1996, and commuted to and from Chicks Beach (a whopping 12 - 15 miles depending on route) it took me 15 minutes to get to work and 45-60 to get home. I am sure it is worse now. Hampton Roads is like Charlotte and Atlanta a primarily suburban region with lacking public transit options and a ton of traffic that is only getting worse. We cannot build new roads forever, we have to embrace other options for getting people around. The Tide is a good start, it just needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations.

Good points, but to my knowledge, there are no plans to bring it to Greenbrier or Chick's Beach. The suburban setting really makes it difficult. When you factor in the time to drive to a central location (let's say Chick's beach to Little Creek or Hickory to Greenbriar), park, and ride on a train that for much of the trip shares the road with cars, get to a destination, and walk to work, I don't think you'll save any time, even at 45 minutes or an hour. In other words, we agree it needs to expand to get people to and from population centers and important destinations. That would be the Ghent/ODU route, IMO.

When I lived downtown, I actually worked at Northampton/Military and took Princess Anne the whole way. Certainly not a very sceneic route, but a reliable 15 minutes day in and day out and no 64/264 interchange. One of my friends works downtown and lives by the Greenbrier Country Club and typically crosses the river ar Brambleton and cuts through South Norfolk. Says it isn't that bad taking that route unless he gets stuck with hoard trying to get to a Tide's game.

I never had a bad commute living over there. That said, I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure getting on the Navy base at rush hour is hell. The base is very large though and I wonder how they will address that as well as the fact that you need a CAC card to get on. My guess is the train will have to stop just outside the gate, then a shuttle take you in. Depending on where your building is within the base, it could take upward of 30 minutes to get to your office after the LRT drops you off outside. If the train actually entered the base and looped around it with multiple stops, I could see it working... but that would mean anyone could get on base and I don't think the Navy would allow that.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2018 08:49 AM by EverRespect.)
03-26-2018 08:47 AM
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bit_9 Offline
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Post: #100
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Some things don't give you an immediate roi or are difficult or take a long time but they're worth doing because they bring value or long term gain. Plan now because people aren't stopping having kids, the population will increase and condense so get the right of ways and arteries done now or it'll be that much more difficult in 50 years. Unless we think this region will just continue to expand horizontal one strip mall and neighborhood at a time west?

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03-26-2018 08:56 AM
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