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OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #61
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:09 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:59 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:39 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Granby Street revitalization downtown has been going on for at least 20 years. I lived there from '02 to '07 and just as much went up in that time and there was no LRT. The Fort Norfolk, retirement community, Trader Publishing building, all the new condos in Freemason, etc all went up before LRT was anything but a pipe dream. The city pumps millions and millions down there. No evidence LRT has played any role whatsoever. You think those people are buying the overpriced condos and apartments so they can take a train to Newtown Road? Where is the development between Newtown Road and Granby? I thought millennials were going to be falling all over themselves to live there. After LRT, they still had to pump millions into Waterside, and MacArthur to keep them open just like they are going to have ot pump millions into the Janaf/Military corridor, with or without LRT. Maybe they ought to serve their citizens and let the development happen according to the market?

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Yeah, this is nothing remotedly close to what has happened downtown recently like Wells Fargo, Main, Icon, etc.

And to the dude about Military Highway. It is one of the highest traffic routes in the area. Stuff is going to happen there, it already has started. (look at all the newer development).

If you want to know what things are going where, look at demographics, traffic, zoning, flood maps, etc.

Harbors Edge is building a new tower;
http://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/lo...-497725929

Cordish wants to build a tower downtown;
https://www.google.com/amp/pilotonline.c...8.amp.html

And Harvey Lindsay is studying adding a tower downtown;
http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/art...in-norfolk

LRT isn't even mentioned in the 3 articles. What is mentioned is $32M out of the $40M in Waterside development was provided by the city itself. If the city is taking 80% of the risk, they could get a developer to redo Huntersville, Park Place, or Lambert's Point just as well. If the city is taking on 80% of the risk, you can have development anywhere.

You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2018 01:29 PM by EverRespect.)
03-23-2018 01:28 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #62
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:25 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:24 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:31 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:22 PM)monarx Wrote:  A Hampton Blvd or Colley Ave route would be a game changer for ODU. I honestly think it could be transformational to the student experience and very attractive for prospective students.

Even more so if ODU and EVMS merge, or if NSU goes under and ODU takes over that campus.

I really hope the second half of that doesn't happen. I think it would be more likely that NSU would close and the state appointed BOV would force ODU to become the "new" NSU. No thanks. They have a different mission than what ODU has. And thats fine. If EVMS came with NSU and all three merged I MIGHT be onboard, but not sure.

Ya I dont see much value in Norfolk States campus

It is on the LRT tracks 05-stirthepot
03-23-2018 01:30 PM
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Gilesfan Online
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Post: #63
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Granted, there is no support for this, but:

Economic development, other effects

A recent video made by HRT states that light rail has contributed to bringing $532 million in economic development downtown since 2011, brought a 25 percent increase of young people 20-34 downtown (2,476 in 2010 to 3,093 in 2014) and a 72 percent increase in downtown housing (2,050 units in 2010 to 3,527 in 2016).

While light rail may have contributed to those changes, it is hard to say just how many of those statistics can be specifically attributed to The Tide.

One of the most recent anecdotes used by HRT is that ADP, the human resources and payroll company that’s bringing 1,800 jobs to downtown Norfolk, was swayed to that location because of light rail.


Whether that is true or not, the Tide has been a massive success.
03-23-2018 01:32 PM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #64
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:28 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:09 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:59 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Yeah, this is nothing remotedly close to what has happened downtown recently like Wells Fargo, Main, Icon, etc.

And to the dude about Military Highway. It is one of the highest traffic routes in the area. Stuff is going to happen there, it already has started. (look at all the newer development).

If you want to know what things are going where, look at demographics, traffic, zoning, flood maps, etc.

Harbors Edge is building a new tower;
http://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/lo...-497725929

Cordish wants to build a tower downtown;
https://www.google.com/amp/pilotonline.c...8.amp.html

And Harvey Lindsay is studying adding a tower downtown;
http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/art...in-norfolk

LRT isn't even mentioned in the 3 articles. What is mentioned is $32M out of the $40M in Waterside development was provided by the city itself. If the city is taking 80% of the risk, they could get a developer to redo Huntersville, Park Place, or Lambert's Point just as well. If the city is taking on 80% of the risk, you can have development anywhere.

You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.

The Tide would have been very successful if it had gone to the oceanfront as originally planned. It would still be much more successful than it is now if it at least went to Town Center. Its simply stupid that it doesn't. It stops literally within sight of Town Center, but doesn't go the extra mile or two to get there. It doesn't make sense to have an anchor on only one end. From the Navy base, down Hampton Blvd, past ODU, Ghent, the Hospital/EVMS, Fort Norfolk, Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, Military Hwy, Sentra Leigh, Town Center would be great. Even better, loop it up from TC to the airport, outlet mall, Amphib base and circle back to the Naval base (possibly through OV, Wards Corner or Little Creek) to complete the circuit.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2018 01:59 PM by monarx.)
03-23-2018 01:56 PM
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BigBlueMonarch Offline
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Post: #65
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:56 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:28 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:09 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:59 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Harbors Edge is building a new tower;
http://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/lo...-497725929

Cordish wants to build a tower downtown;
https://www.google.com/amp/pilotonline.c...8.amp.html

And Harvey Lindsay is studying adding a tower downtown;
http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/art...in-norfolk

LRT isn't even mentioned in the 3 articles. What is mentioned is $32M out of the $40M in Waterside development was provided by the city itself. If the city is taking 80% of the risk, they could get a developer to redo Huntersville, Park Place, or Lambert's Point just as well. If the city is taking on 80% of the risk, you can have development anywhere.

You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.

The Tide would have been very successful if it had gone to the oceanfront as originally planned. It would still be much more successful than it is now if it at least went to Town Center. Its simply stupid that it doesn't. It stops literally within sight of Town Center, but doesn't go the extra mile or two to get there. It doesn't make sense to have an anchor on only one end. From the Navy base, down Hampton Blvd, past ODU, Ghent, the Hospital/EVMS, Fort Norfolk, Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, Military Hwy, Sentra Leigh, Town Center would be great.

I keep saying run it to the airport. To be able to take the light rail from the airport to downtown, and then on to the naval base would be phenomenal for soooooo many visitors to the area, businesses, and residents. If VB doesn't want onboard, run it out to Chesapeake to Greenbriar and through the tunnel to p-town. If it went somewhere, I frequented, I would ride it.
03-23-2018 02:00 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #66
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
Norfolk pitched in $105M for The Main
https://pilotonline.com/news/government/...03ee9.html

And $32M for Waterside
https://pilotonline.com/news/local/artic...29868.html

That is $137M for 2 PRIVATE projects and that doesn't include the massive money they are losing from operating the Tide,

For the entire 10 year period from 1996-2006, they invested in the following Private projects downtown:
Cruise Terminal, Nauticus, Wisconsin - $44.6M
MacArthur Center - $48.5M
https://www.norfolk.gov/DocumentCenter/View/842

All other investments were public buildings and parking garages.

Has the Tide been a massive success or has downtown been a success in spite of the Tide?
03-23-2018 02:01 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #67
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:56 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:28 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:09 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:59 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Harbors Edge is building a new tower;
http://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/lo...-497725929

Cordish wants to build a tower downtown;
https://www.google.com/amp/pilotonline.c...8.amp.html

And Harvey Lindsay is studying adding a tower downtown;
http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/art...in-norfolk

LRT isn't even mentioned in the 3 articles. What is mentioned is $32M out of the $40M in Waterside development was provided by the city itself. If the city is taking 80% of the risk, they could get a developer to redo Huntersville, Park Place, or Lambert's Point just as well. If the city is taking on 80% of the risk, you can have development anywhere.

You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.

The Tide would have been very successful if it had gone to the oceanfront as originally planned. It would still be much more successful than it is now if it at least went to Town Center. Its simply stupid that it doesn't. It stops literally within sight of Town Center, but doesn't go the extra mile or two to get there. It doesn't make sense to have an anchor on only one end. From the Navy base, down Hampton Blvd, past ODU, Ghent, the Hospital/EVMS, Fort Norfolk, Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, Military Hwy, Sentra Leigh, Town Center would be great. Even better, loop it up from TC to the airport, outlet mall, Amphib base and circle back to the Naval base (possibly through OV, Wards Corner or Little Creek) to complete the circuit.

Oceanfront, maybe. I don't think Town Center would have been a success. Virginia Beach is a suburban city and the people are going to need their cars to get around. Maybe it would have been a success, but that isn't the reality. It would be a success in an urban environment, especially where a large part of the population doesn't drive or it would be cheaper than to drive to your destination... like Ghent and ODU to downtown factoring in students without cars and the cost to park a car at your downtown destination. That I can tell you.
03-23-2018 02:06 PM
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Post: #68
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 12:39 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:57 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:48 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:39 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:30 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  As soon as I hear anything or it's made public, I will post it.

As a homeowner of the west side, I hope it goes through ODU. Also, the people who are more likely to use it live on the west side of the city. But development is a major factor and there are a lot more opportunities on the east side of the city.

I think that's debatable. there is a ton of opportunity along 26th and 27th streets between monticello and hampton blvd. that whole area could be transformed. Good luck getting developers to try to convince people that military hwy area is getting better when if you look around. Its clearly not.

Considering development would be doubling down on stupid. That is exactly the argument they used to sell the starter line and that hasn't spurred any development. They need to build it for the residents to have riders or they need to tear the thing down and save the money.

There are at least 7 new apartment buildings downtown since the starter line was finished. The Bank of America building was just turned into The Icon. There's another loft apartment complex in Fort Norfolk/Atlantic City. The Main/Hilton. The Wells Fargo building. Major investment to renovating the Mariott. Waterside. Then there is the arts district which was just a sad street before and now it has 2 apartment buildings going up and host to a bunch of active businesses. Selden Arcade has new life.

To say there is no development is to ignore the revitalization of Granby Street and downtown norfolk.
Granby Street revitalization downtown has been going on for at least 20 years. I lived there from '02 to '07 and just as much went up in that time and there was no LRT. The Fort Norfolk, retirement community, Trader Publishing building, all the new condos in Freemason, etc all went up before LRT was anything but a pipe dream. The city pumps millions and millions down there. No evidence LRT has played any role whatsoever. You think those people are buying the overpriced condos and apartments so they can take a train to Newtown Road? Where is the development between Newtown Road and Granby? I thought millennials were going to be falling all over themselves to live there. After LRT, they still had to pump millions into Waterside, and MacArthur to keep them open just like they are going to have ot pump millions into the Janaf/Military corridor, with or without LRT. Maybe they ought to serve their citizens and let the development happen according to the market?

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Downtown has exploded since light rail. It was slowly getting better before, but the rate accelerated like crazy after. When I first moved to Granby, there were no cars even parked on the street. On the weekend you went out and it was literally a ghost town during the day time. There was nothing open, and there were no people to be seen anywhere. If you go to Granby on the weekend during the day now, good luck finding a place to park and if you walk down the sidewalk you will be dodging people the whole way. It is incredible how much things have changed in the last 8 years or so.
03-23-2018 02:40 PM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #69
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 12:48 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:48 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:39 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:30 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  As soon as I hear anything or it's made public, I will post it.

As a homeowner of the west side, I hope it goes through ODU. Also, the people who are more likely to use it live on the west side of the city. But development is a major factor and there are a lot more opportunities on the east side of the city.

I think that's debatable. there is a ton of opportunity along 26th and 27th streets between monticello and hampton blvd. that whole area could be transformed. Good luck getting developers to try to convince people that military hwy area is getting better when if you look around. Its clearly not.

Considering development would be doubling down on stupid. That is exactly the argument they used to sell the starter line and that hasn't spurred any development. They need to build it for the residents to have riders or they need to tear the thing down and save the money.

Being someone who has lived downtown since before The Tide existed, this is the most ridiculous, uninformed statement I have ever heard. You can argue that spending money on a lightly used light rail system as a means to spur development is not the most cost effective way to spur such development, but you cannot argue that the first phase of light rail has not ignited redevelopment.

That development was well underway long before the Tide and they are having to pump millions into the area to keep it afloat, even with the Tide. If I have my house landscaped and then spend $50k on a new roof, windows, and siding and sell it, I can't claim it sold because of the landscaping.

Proponents of the Tide told us it was going to be one big beautiful "mix-use" development from downtown to Newtown Road. What happened to that?

No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.
03-23-2018 02:42 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #70
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 02:42 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:48 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:48 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:39 AM)cmett003 Wrote:  I think that's debatable. there is a ton of opportunity along 26th and 27th streets between monticello and hampton blvd. that whole area could be transformed. Good luck getting developers to try to convince people that military hwy area is getting better when if you look around. Its clearly not.

Considering development would be doubling down on stupid. That is exactly the argument they used to sell the starter line and that hasn't spurred any development. They need to build it for the residents to have riders or they need to tear the thing down and save the money.

Being someone who has lived downtown since before The Tide existed, this is the most ridiculous, uninformed statement I have ever heard. You can argue that spending money on a lightly used light rail system as a means to spur development is not the most cost effective way to spur such development, but you cannot argue that the first phase of light rail has not ignited redevelopment.

That development was well underway long before the Tide and they are having to pump millions into the area to keep it afloat, even with the Tide. If I have my house landscaped and then spend $50k on a new roof, windows, and siding and sell it, I can't claim it sold because of the landscaping.

Proponents of the Tide told us it was going to be one big beautiful "mix-use" development from downtown to Newtown Road. What happened to that?

No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.

There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.
03-23-2018 03:16 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
The rest of downtown looks the same as it did in 2007? Insanity.
03-23-2018 03:56 PM
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Post: #72
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 03:16 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 02:42 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:48 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:48 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Considering development would be doubling down on stupid. That is exactly the argument they used to sell the starter line and that hasn't spurred any development. They need to build it for the residents to have riders or they need to tear the thing down and save the money.

Being someone who has lived downtown since before The Tide existed, this is the most ridiculous, uninformed statement I have ever heard. You can argue that spending money on a lightly used light rail system as a means to spur development is not the most cost effective way to spur such development, but you cannot argue that the first phase of light rail has not ignited redevelopment.

That development was well underway long before the Tide and they are having to pump millions into the area to keep it afloat, even with the Tide. If I have my house landscaped and then spend $50k on a new roof, windows, and siding and sell it, I can't claim it sold because of the landscaping.

Proponents of the Tide told us it was going to be one big beautiful "mix-use" development from downtown to Newtown Road. What happened to that?

No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.

There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.

This is simply nonsense. Likley complete fabrication.
03-23-2018 04:14 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 12:43 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:20 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:09 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:02 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 11:50 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  It's not that debatable. You're talking about maybe 10 city blocks, with a lot of it either being industrial or residential. Military highway offers miles of development in an area that doesn't have the flood risks the west side presents.

Developers are already building there too. Sentara is building their cancer center at Sentara Leigh. The outlet mall is right off military on Northampton. Ikea opens next year. There have been a lot of smaller projects on Military from the area of Lowes to Home Depot.

I pointed out one location that needs it the most but its much more than 10 blocks. All of monticello and hampton blvd south of ODU need development. As well as Hampton Blvd north of ghent. It also connects the Navy base at a the main entrance. The west route connects at a terrible location that no one uses. From a developer standpoint, its more of a sure bet developing around a light rail on the ODU alignment vs an alignment on military hwy. Maybe things are better than they used to be but they are still bad. The west side already has a lot going for it. The east side is starting from scratch, and its a real hit or miss. I don't think Norfolk can afford to botch this one.

How long has it been since you were on Military? And what stretch of it were you on?

I dont live in Norfolk anymore but was on Military last year. The area is still crappy. Janaf area is still a dump. No one goes to Military Circle mall (amazon is killing all malls across US). The stretch between 64 and Little Creek hasnt changed in decades. You think if the put a light rail there its going to magically transform that whole area? If im a young person moving to norfolk why the hell would I live over there?

https://localtvwtkr.files.wordpress.com/...vision.pdf

Am I seeing this incorrectly. That shows a redeveloped JANAF, but it's dated 2016.. well before it was bought earlier this year.

If / when it is redeveloped, they should rename it to Glenrock. Ties to the history of that specific plot, and sure as hell sounds better.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2018 04:25 PM by GhentFan.)
03-23-2018 04:22 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #74
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:24 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:31 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:22 PM)monarx Wrote:  A Hampton Blvd or Colley Ave route would be a game changer for ODU. I honestly think it could be transformational to the student experience and very attractive for prospective students.

Even more so if ODU and EVMS merge, or if NSU goes under and ODU takes over that campus.

I really hope the second half of that doesn't happen. I think it would be more likely that NSU would close and the state appointed BOV would force ODU to become the "new" NSU. No thanks. They have a different mission than what ODU has. And thats fine. If EVMS came with NSU and all three merged I MIGHT be onboard, but not sure.

I'm not hoping for NSU to close either. They however still have a lot to work to do. They are no longer on the edge, but I'm sure they are still close to it.
03-23-2018 04:28 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #75
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 01:32 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Granted, there is no support for this, but:

Economic development, other effects

A recent video made by HRT states that light rail has contributed to bringing $532 million in economic development downtown since 2011, brought a 25 percent increase of young people 20-34 downtown (2,476 in 2010 to 3,093 in 2014) and a 72 percent increase in downtown housing (2,050 units in 2010 to 3,527 in 2016).

While light rail may have contributed to those changes, it is hard to say just how many of those statistics can be specifically attributed to The Tide.

One of the most recent anecdotes used by HRT is that ADP, the human resources and payroll company that’s bringing 1,800 jobs to downtown Norfolk, was swayed to that location because of light rail.


Whether that is true or not, the Tide has been a massive success.

I'd take numbers from HRT with a grain of salt. I'm sure those numbers are biased in some way.

What they also fail to mention is how much the light rail cost to build ($318 Million, FAR above the $88 Million it was supposed to be), or that it has been losing $4-$7 per passenger since it opened (The worst of any in the nation until 2016).

As of right now, the cost benefit might be 0.
03-23-2018 04:34 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 04:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:43 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:20 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:09 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:02 PM)cmett003 Wrote:  I pointed out one location that needs it the most but its much more than 10 blocks. All of monticello and hampton blvd south of ODU need development. As well as Hampton Blvd north of ghent. It also connects the Navy base at a the main entrance. The west route connects at a terrible location that no one uses. From a developer standpoint, its more of a sure bet developing around a light rail on the ODU alignment vs an alignment on military hwy. Maybe things are better than they used to be but they are still bad. The west side already has a lot going for it. The east side is starting from scratch, and its a real hit or miss. I don't think Norfolk can afford to botch this one.

How long has it been since you were on Military? And what stretch of it were you on?

I dont live in Norfolk anymore but was on Military last year. The area is still crappy. Janaf area is still a dump. No one goes to Military Circle mall (amazon is killing all malls across US). The stretch between 64 and Little Creek hasnt changed in decades. You think if the put a light rail there its going to magically transform that whole area? If im a young person moving to norfolk why the hell would I live over there?

https://localtvwtkr.files.wordpress.com/...vision.pdf

Am I seeing this incorrectly. That shows a redeveloped JANAF, but it's dated 2016.. well before it was bought earlier this year.

I don't understand the question. It's just a study/vision for military highway. Though it's clear they want light rail there.

Also, the CEO of the company who bought it cited light rail as one of the reasons it was a good investment. I'm guessing this vision for the area helped sell the property;
http://pilotonline.com/inside-business/n...389e3.html
03-23-2018 04:36 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #77
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 02:00 PM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:56 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:28 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:09 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  LRT isn't even mentioned in the 3 articles. What is mentioned is $32M out of the $40M in Waterside development was provided by the city itself. If the city is taking 80% of the risk, they could get a developer to redo Huntersville, Park Place, or Lambert's Point just as well. If the city is taking on 80% of the risk, you can have development anywhere.

You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.

The Tide would have been very successful if it had gone to the oceanfront as originally planned. It would still be much more successful than it is now if it at least went to Town Center. Its simply stupid that it doesn't. It stops literally within sight of Town Center, but doesn't go the extra mile or two to get there. It doesn't make sense to have an anchor on only one end. From the Navy base, down Hampton Blvd, past ODU, Ghent, the Hospital/EVMS, Fort Norfolk, Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, Military Hwy, Sentra Leigh, Town Center would be great.

I keep saying run it to the airport. To be able to take the light rail from the airport to downtown, and then on to the naval base would be phenomenal for soooooo many visitors to the area, businesses, and residents. If VB doesn't want onboard, run it out to Chesapeake to Greenbriar and through the tunnel to p-town. If it went somewhere, I frequented, I would ride it.

IIRC Chesapeake has been all about it since day 1.
Not sure if Portsmouth would fly. No idea how the light rail would work and the ERT "no additional crossings" agreement with the state.
03-23-2018 04:37 PM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #78
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 03:56 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  The rest of downtown looks the same as it did in 2007? Insanity.
Yeah. Haha. That is CRAZY.

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03-23-2018 04:39 PM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #79
RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 04:37 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 02:00 PM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:56 PM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:28 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 01:23 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  You said there was no development. We showed you were wrong. Now the argument is, it's not citing the Tide as the reason. The fact is Norfolk has reinvigorated downtown to the point that we have seen a lot of development and it's inspired private investment of multiple apartment buildings, corporate towers, less vacancies on granby street and the building of the neon. Waterside and the tide are both a part of that rebirth and showing to be good investments for them at this time.

As for Lambert's Point and Park Place, they already have some development projects in the pipeline. Only reason for the city to spend money there is to speed that process up. I dont follow Huntersville much but the St Paul's project should have positive impacts there as well.

I said there was no development due to the Tide. I stand by that. There has been development where the city is otherwise throwing money around, which includes one end of the Tide, There has been no develppment where the city is not throwing money around, which includes the other 7 miles of the Tide. It is a shell game.

Imagine what Lambert's Point and Park Place could look like if the city threw $32M at it. It might even include a Waterfront football stadium.

The Tide would have been very successful if it had gone to the oceanfront as originally planned. It would still be much more successful than it is now if it at least went to Town Center. Its simply stupid that it doesn't. It stops literally within sight of Town Center, but doesn't go the extra mile or two to get there. It doesn't make sense to have an anchor on only one end. From the Navy base, down Hampton Blvd, past ODU, Ghent, the Hospital/EVMS, Fort Norfolk, Downtown, Harbor Park, NSU, Military Hwy, Sentra Leigh, Town Center would be great.

I keep saying run it to the airport. To be able to take the light rail from the airport to downtown, and then on to the naval base would be phenomenal for soooooo many visitors to the area, businesses, and residents. If VB doesn't want onboard, run it out to Chesapeake to Greenbriar and through the tunnel to p-town. If it went somewhere, I frequented, I would ride it.

IIRC Chesapeake has been all about it since day 1.
Not sure if Portsmouth would fly. No idea how the light rail would work and the ERT "no additional crossings" agreement with the state.

Yeah, it was crazy that they built the new tunnels without LRT capacity. McDonnell really screwed Hampton Roads with that deal in every imaginable way.
03-23-2018 06:02 PM
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RE: OT: Tide Light Rail Expansion
(03-23-2018 04:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 03:16 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 02:42 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:48 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2018 12:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Being someone who has lived downtown since before The Tide existed, this is the most ridiculous, uninformed statement I have ever heard. You can argue that spending money on a lightly used light rail system as a means to spur development is not the most cost effective way to spur such development, but you cannot argue that the first phase of light rail has not ignited redevelopment.

That development was well underway long before the Tide and they are having to pump millions into the area to keep it afloat, even with the Tide. If I have my house landscaped and then spend $50k on a new roof, windows, and siding and sell it, I can't claim it sold because of the landscaping.

Proponents of the Tide told us it was going to be one big beautiful "mix-use" development from downtown to Newtown Road. What happened to that?

No it wasn't. I was there. There was nothing on Granby besides seedy clubs.

There was Baxters on one end and Hell's Kitchen on the other end with about 20 bars in between. The only seedy one that opened while I was there was the one made from the old theater that had a bunch of shootings, but the rest were all great. I drove down Granby after our Christmas party in December and it didn't look any different. Only Fort Norfolk and the area on Montecello toward Scope (Wells Fargo) looks any better than it did in 2007 when I moved out. The rest looks exactly the same. And back to my earlier point, the city is dumping a shitton more money into downtown now and taking all the risk. When I was there it was mostly private money and the city was dumping a lot of their money into Ward's Corner, Oceanview, and Ghent. Give me Military Circle and $32M and I could even revitalize that. It would be nice if ODU folks would actually advocate for ODU instead of always singing Kumbaya with leadership. This is why the city gets away with blowing all the money for LRT on other places and why if they ever get around to expanding it, it will be up Military Highway and be a disaster. We just grab our ankles and make their excuses for them. You want to see LRT really spur real development and not fake development paid for by your tax dollars? Run the thing where the people who want to ride it live or at the very least want to live. I lived on the Southside for 10 years and never once did anyone express to me the desire to live off Military Highway. That's where you go to Target or shopping elsewhere if you have to and then hightail out as quickly as possible. Nothing is going to develop there without the city paying for it.

This is simply nonsense. Likley complete fabrication.

Yet none of you can refute any of it. You have a Wells Fargo building, a Buffalo Wild Wings, and a few other chains from the city bought Waterside. Nobody wants to live off Military Highway. LRT didn't spur any development. Development taking place when the city is taking 80% of the risk has nothing to do with LRT. Facts are facts.

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03-23-2018 08:20 PM
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