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Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
This is strictly for the attractiveness of UCF and USF for the Big 12 (as it's pointless to even consider them for the SEC or ACC, much less the Big Ten or Pac-12):

Advantages for UCF and USF: great locations both in terms of TV markets and recruiting; large enrollment schools that are growing fast; fairly good on-the-field track records compared to other G5 schools

Disadvantages for UCF and USF: arguably the most competitive college football market in the country with Florida and FSU being elite marquee programs and Miami being a top tier national TV brand (making attendance irrelevant with respect to Miami); very young FBS programs in a P5 world that craves/demands old school blue blood history even from weak programs (see Rutgers); real and perceived bias against "directional" schools in terms of branding; academic perception

Non-factor: It's irrelevant to argue that a G5 school would have better attendance or TV ratings by playing a P5 schedule because that would be true of *every* G5 school. Instead, a G5 school has to show that it would bring attendance, TV viewers and revenue to those *P5* schools as opposed to the other way around.

Now, I'll know we'll hear the arguments that it's hypocritical to use, say, academics as a factor against UCF and USF when you see a school like UNC systemically violating the NCAA's academic procedures... and those arguments are entirely correct. However, if you're a school on the outside looking in, it simply doesn't matter. Every argument that is used to keep you out will be emphasized much more heavily than any argument to bring you in. Simply being better than #65 out of the 65 P5 schools is NOT the standard being used.

Of course, all those points are moot if the Big 12 or any other P5 conference doesn't yield more per school revenue by choosing to expand. UCF and/or USF could go undefeated for the next 10 years straight and it wouldn't matter if that revenue equation doesn't change.
10-09-2017 10:59 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 10:14 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  I thought they were viable candidates anyway. I really think the main reason the Big 12 did not expand was that the TV people were throwing a hissy fit. They are pretty tapped out on their contracts right now. They didn't want to pay for two more teams right now.

ESPN is losing a lot of $$'s now, but it's not because of CTE. Rather, it's because ESPN has chosen to get involved with politics, which was a very bad idea.
10-09-2017 11:06 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 10:26 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  Ken d
If the 5 FBS nonplayoff conferences were to form their own playoffs, then it would be in direct competition with the existing playoff conferences for tv eyeballs and recruits
I don't know how or if the NCAA would be involved at that point
All I know is both divisions would have the same number of scholarships to the same recruits
Then let democracy do its thang...

I think democracy would do the same thang the current system has done. The only difference would be that the lower division wouldn't get as much money out of it as they do now.
10-09-2017 11:23 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 11:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 10:26 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  Ken d
If the 5 FBS nonplayoff conferences were to form their own playoffs, then it would be in direct competition with the existing playoff conferences for tv eyeballs and recruits
I don't know how or if the NCAA would be involved at that point
All I know is both divisions would have the same number of scholarships to the same recruits
Then let democracy do its thang...

I think democracy would do the same thang the current system has done. The only difference would be that the lower division wouldn't get as much money out of it as they do now.
See it wouldn't be a lower division, only a division that would be playing catchup
10-09-2017 11:27 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 11:06 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 10:14 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  I thought they were viable candidates anyway. I really think the main reason the Big 12 did not expand was that the TV people were throwing a hissy fit. They are pretty tapped out on their contracts right now. They didn't want to pay for two more teams right now.

ESPN is losing a lot of $$'s now, but it's not because of CTE. Rather, it's because ESPN has chosen to get involved with politics, which was a very bad idea.

??????
10-09-2017 11:28 AM
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otown Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 10:02 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 05:12 AM)otown Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 09:22 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If USF and UCF continue to sustain success

In the 9 seasons before receiving a Big 12 invitation, TCU won a total of 92 football games.

That is sustained success. It's way too early to talk about sustained success in year one of what a team hopes will be a long run.

That's cherry picking one team. Utah was good, but less than TCU. Louisville similar to Utah.

Utah won 79 football games in the 8 years before they joined the Pac. So also about 10 wins a year for many years. Louisville also had 30-plus years of top-notch basketball before joining the ACC.

But if you want to think sustaining success doesn't matter, go ahead, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

When you subtract the one winless season for UCF, close enough numbers.

Outside of that, you have a hand of TCU, Utah, and Louisville. I raise you with a Pitt, Syracuse, and Rutgers.
10-09-2017 11:29 AM
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Post: #67
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 10:56 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 07:06 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If USF and UCF continue to sustain success does it make them any more attractive for P5 membership? If the Big 12 somehow continues beyond the expiration of their GOR do they get in as a pair? They bring a pair of nice Florida markets and rich recruiting and could either be put with the 4 Texas schools for a division, creating the opportunity for a a Texas-Oklahoma rematch for a title. Or they could be matched with WVU and the 3 prairie schools.

In short, the answer is no.

Let's be realistic.

There's no chance they get into the SEC or the B1G.

The ACC has FSU and "The U" so they have a significant presence in the region. Adding either of those schools doesn't really add any significant value to the conference.

That leaves the PAC and the XII. PAC? Ain't happening. Out of all the crazy realignment ideas, adding 1 or 2 Florida schools to the PAC who's closest game would be 1800 miles away is unrealistic to be kind.

That leaves the XII. Seems that by all indications that some combo of TX, KU, and OU are ready to jump ship once the GOR expires. If any combo of 2 or all three leave, the XII becomes the equivalent of the AAC so really, what would be the point.

Key word here is "seems." It could be that the Big 12 could stay together.

I think it will all depend on whether the Longhorn Network eventually morphs into the XII Network.

I don't see how the XII can keep up financially with the other conferences without a network of their own to go along with the new TV contract in a few years.

Seems that one of three things will happen.

1) The Longhorn Network is "negotiated" to become the XII network, they expand by several schools and everyone's happy.

2) They somehow "merge" with the PAC allowing the big dogs of the conference to buy into the PACN. The leftovers either expand and reform the XII or go off and join other conferences.

3) The XII collapses and the big dogs head off to greener pastures leaving the rest to fend for themselves.

I don't realistically see how the XII stays together without some sort of expansion along with a conference network. To much money to be made elsewhere without those.
10-09-2017 11:32 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
tex is not going anywhere & B-12 has to expand
B-12 is so short on markets, they have to expand with eastern wing.
maybe get piece of NYC & Fla
10-09-2017 12:39 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 10:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This is strictly for the attractiveness of UCF and USF for the Big 12 (as it's pointless to even consider them for the SEC or ACC, much less the Big Ten or Pac-12):

Advantages for UCF and USF: great locations both in terms of TV markets and recruiting; large enrollment schools that are growing fast; fairly good on-the-field track records compared to other G5 schools

Disadvantages for UCF and USF: arguably the most competitive college football market in the country with Florida and FSU being elite marquee programs and Miami being a top tier national TV brand (making attendance irrelevant with respect to Miami); very young FBS programs in a P5 world that craves/demands old school blue blood history even from weak programs (see Rutgers); real and perceived bias against "directional" schools in terms of branding; academic perception

Non-factor: It's irrelevant to argue that a G5 school would have better attendance or TV ratings by playing a P5 schedule because that would be true of *every* G5 school. Instead, a G5 school has to show that it would bring attendance, TV viewers and revenue to those *P5* schools as opposed to the other way around.

Now, I'll know we'll hear the arguments that it's hypocritical to use, say, academics as a factor against UCF and USF when you see a school like UNC systemically violating the NCAA's academic procedures... and those arguments are entirely correct. However, if you're a school on the outside looking in, it simply doesn't matter. Every argument that is used to keep you out will be emphasized much more heavily than any argument to bring you in. Simply being better than #65 out of the 65 P5 schools is NOT the standard being used.

Of course, all those points are moot if the Big 12 or any other P5 conference doesn't yield more per school revenue by choosing to expand. UCF and/or USF could go undefeated for the next 10 years straight and it wouldn't matter if that revenue equation doesn't change.

Addressing solely the point about directional names and perception of academics: I agree that is probably what people think in average. And it’s too bad and a bit unfair in USF’s case, because it actually has pretty good research.

Would be interesting if they’d consider a name change. Not sure what would make sense or be available, though. UF-Tampa Bay?
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 01:19 PM by MplsBison.)
10-09-2017 01:18 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
I actually think BYU is helping its case this year with its dumpster fire of a season. One of the worst offenses in the FBS and losing records next to its name - yet, still able to get 60K home game attendance and adequate TV draw.

And, no legacy B12 conference members need to worry about BYU challenging to displace conference title front-runners anytime soon...
10-09-2017 01:21 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
your excattly right, LHN has to become quesa B-12 network
B-12 expands with 8 eastern schools & thier market hits 90 m, on par with B-10
Tex gets to keep thier B-12 division intact, which is what they want
B-12 would be in 2nd [tex], 3rd [ny], 4th [fla], 5th [pa], 6th [oh] largest states
BYU has a precense in every moutain & pacific state

has anybody seen them ABC games this yr OMG
B-10-MAC slugfests, yeah that worth 190 m a yr
10-09-2017 01:21 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 01:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 10:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This is strictly for the attractiveness of UCF and USF for the Big 12 (as it's pointless to even consider them for the SEC or ACC, much less the Big Ten or Pac-12):

Advantages for UCF and USF: great locations both in terms of TV markets and recruiting; large enrollment schools that are growing fast; fairly good on-the-field track records compared to other G5 schools

Disadvantages for UCF and USF: arguably the most competitive college football market in the country with Florida and FSU being elite marquee programs and Miami being a top tier national TV brand (making attendance irrelevant with respect to Miami); very young FBS programs in a P5 world that craves/demands old school blue blood history even from weak programs (see Rutgers); real and perceived bias against "directional" schools in terms of branding; academic perception

Non-factor: It's irrelevant to argue that a G5 school would have better attendance or TV ratings by playing a P5 schedule because that would be true of *every* G5 school. Instead, a G5 school has to show that it would bring attendance, TV viewers and revenue to those *P5* schools as opposed to the other way around.

Now, I'll know we'll hear the arguments that it's hypocritical to use, say, academics as a factor against UCF and USF when you see a school like UNC systemically violating the NCAA's academic procedures... and those arguments are entirely correct. However, if you're a school on the outside looking in, it simply doesn't matter. Every argument that is used to keep you out will be emphasized much more heavily than any argument to bring you in. Simply being better than #65 out of the 65 P5 schools is NOT the standard being used.

Of course, all those points are moot if the Big 12 or any other P5 conference doesn't yield more per school revenue by choosing to expand. UCF and/or USF could go undefeated for the next 10 years straight and it wouldn't matter if that revenue equation doesn't change.

Addressing solely the point about directional names and perception of academics: I agree that is probably what people think in average. And it’s too bad and a bit unfair in USF’s case, because it actually has pretty good research.

Would be interesting if they’d consider a name change. Not sure what would make sense or be available, though. UF-Tampa Bay?

What would be wrong with University of Tampa and University of Orlando? USF may be south of UCF, but not by much.

Edit: U of Tampa is taken (private DII school). U of Orlando isn't.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 01:28 PM by ken d.)
10-09-2017 01:23 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
"Does this addition make me more money?"

On field success doesn't hurt but, as JR and others have mentioned, there are many more metrics involved.
10-09-2017 01:23 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
Texas, Florida and California account for a substantial portion of the top high school football talent in the nation. Below is a list of blue chip prospects (5* and 4* prospects) from each of those respective states. The data was taken from https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...california

State '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Total Total%
Texas 47 52 47 37 46 229 13.8%
Florida 42 47 50 42 46 226 13.6%
California 35 45 44 34 41 199 12.0


In terms of the power conference structure, California has USC, UCLA, California and Stanford; Texas has Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, TCU, and Texas Tech. Florida *only* has Florida, Florida State and Miami. Judging from the talent level, it can absolutely be argued that Florida should have more representation in the power conference structure, more so than what is currently being displayed.
10-09-2017 01:31 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 01:31 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Texas, Florida and California account for a substantial portion of the top high school football talent in the nation. Below is a list of blue chip prospects (5* and 4* prospects) from each of those respective states. The data was taken from https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...california

State '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Total Total%
Texas 47 52 47 37 46 229 13.8%
Florida 42 47 50 42 46 226 13.6%
California 35 45 44 34 41 199 12.0


In terms of the power conference structure, California has USC, UCLA, California and Stanford; Texas has Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, TCU, and Texas Tech. Florida *only* has Florida, Florida State and Miami. Judging from the talent level, it can absolutely be argued that Florida should have more representation in the power conference structure, more so than what is currently being displayed.

The other side of that argument is the exact thing that did Houston’s bid in: the teams that are on the inside looking out are too scared of what might happen if they let another in, especially right in the middle of fertile recruiting ground.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 01:36 PM by MplsBison.)
10-09-2017 01:35 PM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
What this seasons success means is better recruiting next year
10-09-2017 01:36 PM
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RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 01:35 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 01:31 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Texas, Florida and California account for a substantial portion of the top high school football talent in the nation. Below is a list of blue chip prospects (5* and 4* prospects) from each of those respective states. The data was taken from https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...california

State '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Total Total%
Texas 47 52 47 37 46 229 13.8%
Florida 42 47 50 42 46 226 13.6%
California 35 45 44 34 41 199 12.0


In terms of the power conference structure, California has USC, UCLA, California and Stanford; Texas has Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, TCU, and Texas Tech. Florida *only* has Florida, Florida State and Miami. Judging from the talent level, it can absolutely be argued that Florida should have more representation in the power conference structure, more so than what is currently being displayed.

The other side of that argument is the exact thing that did Houston’s bid in: the teams that are on the inside looking out are too scared of what might happen if they let another in, especially right in the middle of fertile recruiting ground.
This is the bitter truth and there is only one way to change the historic recruiting landscape
10-09-2017 01:42 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 01:23 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 01:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 10:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This is strictly for the attractiveness of UCF and USF for the Big 12 (as it's pointless to even consider them for the SEC or ACC, much less the Big Ten or Pac-12):

Advantages for UCF and USF: great locations both in terms of TV markets and recruiting; large enrollment schools that are growing fast; fairly good on-the-field track records compared to other G5 schools

Disadvantages for UCF and USF: arguably the most competitive college football market in the country with Florida and FSU being elite marquee programs and Miami being a top tier national TV brand (making attendance irrelevant with respect to Miami); very young FBS programs in a P5 world that craves/demands old school blue blood history even from weak programs (see Rutgers); real and perceived bias against "directional" schools in terms of branding; academic perception

Non-factor: It's irrelevant to argue that a G5 school would have better attendance or TV ratings by playing a P5 schedule because that would be true of *every* G5 school. Instead, a G5 school has to show that it would bring attendance, TV viewers and revenue to those *P5* schools as opposed to the other way around.

Now, I'll know we'll hear the arguments that it's hypocritical to use, say, academics as a factor against UCF and USF when you see a school like UNC systemically violating the NCAA's academic procedures... and those arguments are entirely correct. However, if you're a school on the outside looking in, it simply doesn't matter. Every argument that is used to keep you out will be emphasized much more heavily than any argument to bring you in. Simply being better than #65 out of the 65 P5 schools is NOT the standard being used.

Of course, all those points are moot if the Big 12 or any other P5 conference doesn't yield more per school revenue by choosing to expand. UCF and/or USF could go undefeated for the next 10 years straight and it wouldn't matter if that revenue equation doesn't change.

Addressing solely the point about directional names and perception of academics: I agree that is probably what people think in average. And it’s too bad and a bit unfair in USF’s case, because it actually has pretty good research.

Would be interesting if they’d consider a name change. Not sure what would make sense or be available, though. UF-Tampa Bay?

What would be wrong with University of Tampa and University of Orlando? USF may be south of UCF, but not by much.

Edit: U of Tampa is taken (private DII school). U of Orlando isn't.

It would be University of Tampa Bay because as you noted, Tampa is taken.
10-09-2017 02:51 PM
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RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
(10-09-2017 07:33 AM)PlayBall! Wrote:  A big step toward the P5 goal:

UCF should acquire Florida Tech, then adopt that name. The second tech/research-intensive campus in Melbourne would help expand its overall reputation too.

The Florida Tech Panthers is a better-sounding mascot too, but some work is needed on the logo.

And, of course, keep up the good work on the field! 04-bow

Oh man that’s all we had to do is change our name so midwestern schools would be okay with adding us?! Man do we have egg on our faces
10-09-2017 03:09 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Does this season's success make UCF/USF more attractive to the P5?
Texas does not want to be associated with schools that have a directional name on it. Nothing wrong with either school but Texas runs the league and what Texas wants is what Texas gets.
10-09-2017 03:17 PM
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