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What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
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Post: #21
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-06-2017 03:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Also boys sometimes chromosomal problems don’t pop up until after the 20th week. We didn’t even know there was an issue until the 5th month. They saw a bubble on the umbilical cord and then they ordered an ambioscentisis. Remember it like it was yesterday. We had a day to decide whether to terminate the pregnancy. That was a fun ride home. Just trust me. The govt and you have now business in telling a family what they should do with their lives. Can any of you pro lifers think for a second the hidden resentment you would have if you were forced to care for a child that needed 24-7 nursing care? That HAS to be a decision YOU made not anybody else.

That's a pretty tough case. But I know a couple (very young, of course) who adopted a baby from Russia with no arms and no legs. That is pretty amazing. I couldn't be that good.

But I am thankful every day that my children's birth parents chose life. And one is special needs (not anywhere as extreme as that, but its been a challenge).
10-06-2017 04:30 PM
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Post: #22
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
Despite the party's positions, abortion really isn't a partisan issue. I have a fundamentalist sister who was a Cruz supporter who is VERY pro-life. My parents, who were ardent Trump supporters, are very pro-choice. The rest of us are sympathetic to pro-life, but not as strong on it as my sister.
10-06-2017 04:34 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #23
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-05-2017 09:17 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 08:22 PM)Claw Wrote:  Do you really want the government making your wife's medical decisions?

That's where this ends. The state statistics say procedure a is more likely to keep your baby alive so your doctor will have no legal choice in treatment.

I want the government to protect innocent life.

Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

I mostly agree that unless the health of the mother is in jeopardy, nothing should occur after a certain number of weeks. The problem is that every case is likely different. And I would trust the doctors, along with the mothers, to make their own best interest decision more than the government placing an arbitrary standard.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 08:45 AM by Redwingtom.)
10-09-2017 08:39 AM
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Post: #24
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.
10-09-2017 08:54 AM
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Post: #25
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

^ comments like this are why this is such a ridiculous board...
10-09-2017 08:59 AM
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Post: #26
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.
10-09-2017 09:00 AM
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Post: #27
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.
10-09-2017 09:38 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #28
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

To Christians it can be, but we're making a governmental decision here...or at least debating one. Spiritual and religious definitions don't really apply here as we have to assume our government is neither just as it was founded.
10-09-2017 09:49 AM
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Post: #29
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Not learned Christians who have actually read Jeremiah 1:5 and actually believe the Bible. This is where you have to ask yourself: are you a true Christian, or a buffet Christian?
10-09-2017 10:48 AM
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Post: #30
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 09:17 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 08:22 PM)Claw Wrote:  Do you really want the government making your wife's medical decisions?

That's where this ends. The state statistics say procedure a is more likely to keep your baby alive so your doctor will have no legal choice in treatment.

I want the government to protect innocent life.

Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

I mostly agree that unless the health of the mother is in jeopardy, nothing should occur after a certain number of weeks. The problem is that every case is likely different. And I would trust the doctors, along with the mothers, to make their own best interest decision more than the government placing an arbitrary standard.

Oooh, dangerous path to tread.

Can a newborn live outside the womb without any interaction with others?

Can a toddler live outside the womb without any interaction with others?

What about a teen who has a sever disability? Can she live outside the womb without any interaction with others?

My elderly grandmother who contracted Alzheimers which eventually incapacitated her... she wasn't able to live outside the womb without any interaction with others.


Here's the one and only criteria: are we talking about a human -- regardless of stage of development.
  • Once fertilized, the human embryo has its own unique DNA. The baby needs no other genetic input.
  • The baby is alive as demonstrated by growth and development.
  • The only external input required is oxygen and nutrients. And this remains true whether the baby is inside the mother's womb or outside.
10-09-2017 10:57 AM
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Post: #31
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-06-2017 05:46 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  HIPPA laws....... enough said. You have zero right to tell someone how to live their lives. This is a decision between a Dr and the family. Only God can judge. Not you! 1 out of 4 pregnancies have some type of chromosomal issue. Most of these are miscarried.

Do you seriously believe this?

Society most definitely has the right to tell people how to live their lives. Don't kill people. Don't assault people. Don't rob banks. Don't steal stuff. etc, etc, etc.

And society most definitely has the right to enforce punishment on those who choose to violate the rules.
10-09-2017 10:59 AM
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Post: #32
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Maybe among apostate Christians.
10-09-2017 11:01 AM
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Post: #33
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:49 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

To Christians it can be, but we're making a governmental decision here...or at least debating one. Spiritual and religious definitions don't really apply here as we have to assume our government is neither just as it was founded.

They do. There's no science that delineates a one day old embryo from a newborn at 9 months. There are different development stages, but they are all homo sapiens sapiens. So its really a spiritual question as to where to draw the line between conception and birth as to where government has a compelling interest to protect life.
10-09-2017 11:04 AM
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Post: #34
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

I don't know. For those who place their faith in science, this is one question that is definitely settled: human DNA.

We've exposed Ernst Haeckel's intentional lie. The human embryo doesn't go through various animal stages of development. It's never a fish or a pig or a chicken. It's always human.

DNA proves that.

We can debate when that human life becomes value in the eyes of God, but there is no debate, scientific or religious, as to when the life becomes human.


Oh, and as for the debate about when God deems a human life as valuable...


Isaiah 44:24 (NKJV)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
10-09-2017 11:14 AM
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Post: #35
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 11:01 AM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Maybe among apostate Christians.

Yep.
10-09-2017 11:19 AM
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Post: #36
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
There is no real excuse for not having known and been able to make a decision by 20 weeks.

I fall in the middle ground on abortion. I support abortion on demand within the first handful of weeks. After that time period there should be some oversight.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 11:21 AM by HeartOfDixie.)
10-09-2017 11:21 AM
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Post: #37
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 11:14 AM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:39 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Is it life if it cannot live on its own outside the womb?

A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

I don't know. For those who place their faith in science, this is one question that is definitely settled: human DNA.

We've exposed Ernst Haeckel's intentional lie. The human embryo doesn't go through various animal stages of development. It's never a fish or a pig or a chicken. It's always human.

DNA proves that.

We can debate when that human life becomes value in the eyes of God, but there is no debate, scientific or religious, as to when the life becomes human.


Oh, and as for the debate about when God deems a human life as valuable...

Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;

And you reveal the main problem with most Christians when using this verse. God was talking directly to Jeremiah here, not every fetus ever conceived.

And you left of this important part from Jeremiah, further revealing he's talking only to Jeremiah here:

"Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
10-09-2017 11:44 AM
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Post: #38
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 11:44 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 11:14 AM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  A Christian shouldn't be asking this question.

That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

I don't know. For those who place their faith in science, this is one question that is definitely settled: human DNA.

We've exposed Ernst Haeckel's intentional lie. The human embryo doesn't go through various animal stages of development. It's never a fish or a pig or a chicken. It's always human.

DNA proves that.

We can debate when that human life becomes value in the eyes of God, but there is no debate, scientific or religious, as to when the life becomes human.


Oh, and as for the debate about when God deems a human life as valuable...

Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;

And you reveal the main problem with most Christians when using this verse. God was talking directly to Jeremiah here, not every fetus ever conceived.

And you left of this important part from Jeremiah, further revealing he's talking only to Jeremiah here:

"Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Actually, that bolsters the argument. Thanks.

Do you think God knows every person? Did He only know Jeremiah prior to forming him in the womb? Was it only Jeremiah He formed in the womb?



Do you agree with the settled science that based on DNA the embryo is human and that it is living and growing?
10-09-2017 12:11 PM
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Post: #39
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
(10-09-2017 12:11 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 11:44 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 11:14 AM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:38 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  That's ridiculous. This is clearly a debatable topic among many learned Christians. Not to mention the fact that when setting government policy, it needs to be done outside of religious dogma.

Its ultimately about when an unborn child becomes "human" and thus has a "right to life." So it is a spiritual question.

I don't know. For those who place their faith in science, this is one question that is definitely settled: human DNA.

We've exposed Ernst Haeckel's intentional lie. The human embryo doesn't go through various animal stages of development. It's never a fish or a pig or a chicken. It's always human.

DNA proves that.

We can debate when that human life becomes value in the eyes of God, but there is no debate, scientific or religious, as to when the life becomes human.


Oh, and as for the debate about when God deems a human life as valuable...

Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;

And you reveal the main problem with most Christians when using this verse. God was talking directly to Jeremiah here, not every fetus ever conceived.

And you left of this important part from Jeremiah, further revealing he's talking only to Jeremiah here:

"Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Actually, that bolsters the argument. Thanks.

Do you think God knows every person? Did He only know Jeremiah prior to forming him in the womb? Was it only Jeremiah He formed in the womb?



Do you agree with the settled science that based on DNA the embryo is human and that it is living and growing?

The point is that in that scripture God is only talking to and about Jeremiah, explaining that he pre-ordained his birth as a prophet to the nations. Applying that to every person ever born is not an accurate description or interpretation of that verse.

And of course the fetus is living and growing, but it's only doing so due to the mother. It's my opinion that it should not have constitutional rights until it can either live on its own outside the womb or with reasonable assistance from modern medicine.
10-09-2017 12:44 PM
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Post: #40
RE: What's wrong with banning abortion after 20 weeks?
Tom showing us who he really is.
10-09-2017 01:29 PM
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