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"West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #181
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-05-2017 05:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

Excellent analysis. It kind of confirms what we all kind of figured - regarding the Big 12, it exists at the pleasure of Texas and Oklahoma. They are the 900 and 800 pound gorillas surrounded by a bunch of 100 pound monkeys. Anyone who says schools like Kansas or Oklahoma State are valuable to anyone else are kidding themselves. They aren't even valuable to Texas and Oklahoma, save in the sense that those two need at least 8 other warm bodies to make a conference, and they are the warmest stiffs available.

It also tells us that why the ACC has done some very un-ACC like things the last few years, like admit an athletic mercenary like Louisville and permit a partial affiliation in Notre Dame: Their value is inherently low, so they were desperate.

And I know, ACC fans will say "well, this is our value before the ACCN kicks in", and that's true. But wake me up when the ACCN kicking in results in a substantial boosts to those values.

To illustrate your take on the Big 12 here are the WSJ football valuations for that conference the number next to the schools name will be their national ranking in valuation:

2. Texas: $1,243,124,000
3. Oklahoma: $1,001,967,000
29. Oklahoma State: $285,293,000
30. Kansas State: $277,208,000
34. Texas Tech: $246,871,000
41. Iowa State: $196,973,000
43. Kansas: $183,031,000
48. T.C.U.: $153,631,000
59. Baylor: $103,591,000
66. West Virginia: $72,649,000

So you can look at the positioning and see just how much of a dwarf that most of them are. What is misleading here is that Kansas basketball value added to their moribund football value would probably elevate them above Iowa State, and Texas Tech and maybe even Kansas State, but probably not Oklahoma State where basketball and baseball add as well.

You can also see why the Texa-homa package would work if required. They average added valuation for the four would be 694,313,750 which exceeds the SEC per school average by 171,000,000 per school, the Big 10 by 279,000,000 per school and blows away anything the PAC or ACC presently has. But truly nobody from the Big 12 moves alone without either Texas or Oklahoma, or both.

In short 60% of the total valuation of the Big 12 belongs to Texas and Oklahoma. The other 8 schools combined contribute the final 40% of their total valuation.

But in fairness 1. Ohio State: $1,510,482,000 & 6. Michigan: $892,951,000 represent 42.3% of the Big 10's total valuation.

After #7 Notre Dame: $856,938,000 the next closest ACC school is #20 Florida State $385,339,000.
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 10:41 PM by JRsec.)
10-05-2017 07:04 PM
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Huskies12 Offline
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Post: #182
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Let's just crunch some numbers shall we:

West Virginia's 2015-6 Total Gross Revenue was $105,140,368.

If that was placed against the Total Gross Revenues of the schools in the present ACC (including Notre Dame) West Virginia would have been the 4th largest grossing product behind 1. Notre Dame, 2. Florida State, 3. Louisville, and ahead of 5. Clemson.

But recently the WSJ set valuations for the economic impact of schools football teams. By those valuations West Virginia's assigned valuation of $72,049,000 would have placed them only above Duke and Wake Forest in the ACC.


Connecticut's 2015-6 Total Gross Revenue was $79,229,275.

They would have placed 12th in the present ACC (including Notre Dame) and ahead of Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, Boston College, and Wake Forest. And that would have been with the handicap of a low-balled TV contract.

Connecticut's WSJ valuation was $59,776,000 which would have placed only above Wake Forest in the ACC.

Louisville's Gross Total Revenue was third in the ACC and only out of 2nd place by 1 million dollars: $112,146,504, whereas Louisville's WSJ Valuation was $160,899,000 which would place them 8th in a 15 member ACC.

A schools Gross Total Revenue is illustrative of the School's earning potential. The WSJ valuation is illustrative of what the value of the school's brand is to others, like networks, advertising, and merchandise retailers. It is the impact economically that the school is projected to have.

When the impact valuation is lower than the total gross revenue you have a statement that the addition of that school is probably not feasible for those who pay for the brands and content of a conference since it is a negative indicator for the economic impact that the brand will carry for them as it relates to the total value of the collective conference members and the average conference member valuation.

To give you an idea of how important adding those schools who increase the projected valuation would be to the ACC. Mississippi State's total valuation would place them 6th in the current ACC behind Notre Dame, Florida State, Clemson, Virginia Tech, and Miami.

The ACC is dead last in its economic impact if you don't count Notre Dame. They just nudge out the PAC if you do count the Irish in the group totals.

SEC: $7,327,830,000 SEC Average per school: $523,416,428
B1G: $5,820,481,000 B1G Average per school: $415,748,643
B12: $3,764,333,000 B12 Average per school: $376,433,300
ACC: $3,410,313,000 ACC Average per school: $227,354,200 (with N.D.)
PAC: $3,045,197,000 PAC Average per school: $253,766,417 (higher than ACC w/ND)
ACC: $2,553,375,000 ACC Average per school: $182,383,929 (without N.D.)

So with N.D. the ACC technically has a collective valuation higher than the PAC but that is only because the ACC has 15 schools and the PAC has 12 if you count N.D.

The PAC per school average is higher.

What this illustrates is that without N.D. the ACC's valuation would have lagged all others by quite a bit. Note that N.D.'s presence in full increases the average ACC schools valuation by 45 million dollars per school.

This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

You could argue UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU were undervalued and any team would have increased the contract. If you argue the new teams drive the contract value Pitt and Syracuse are worth more to ESPN than UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU
10-06-2017 07:23 AM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #183
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-05-2017 04:31 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 02:25 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 08:24 AM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(10-04-2017 07:40 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(10-04-2017 07:33 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  How exactly can you assure me that the lawsuit excuse is still a valid excuse? I wait for your proof with baited breath.

I think the term you are stuck on is "Valid". ACC does not need it to be valid or not valid. You are not going to believe anything other than what you want. I stated hindsight UCONN probably was the better choice but unless you invent a time machine, UCONN and the ACC is extremely unlikely. If there is going to be another outpost, it will likely be in Texas. Sorry, you don't like the situation but UCONN and lawsuit will live together is part of ACC lore.

It only lives on as part of ACC lore because of that 2011 Blaudshun article, with quotes from the BC AD, that I've been assured, from "insiders" like yourself, was a steaming pile of monkey crap. So if that article is pure bunk then so is the narrative that the lawsuit is keeping UCONN out of the ACC.

DC1, I do actually have more ACC inside ties than you can imagine however I typically won't post them because I have been asked not too. I ususally try to state my opinion which is backed with confidence. Many times people construe them as fact which I will say sorry, these are my opinions and thoughts. I am not asking you to believe me or take it as fact. That would be like arguing with a stop sign. I admire your Don Quixote stand but the Knight of Mirrors will eventually meet you one day. Until then, keep after those windmills. Another one of my opinions, I love to send Syracuse and BC to the B12 or B10, add WVU and a Texas school to replace them. Bring in Navy football only if ND ever joins. ACC should good no further north than the Burg.

Fine, you win, you're a legitimate insider. But my point still stands and it appears you're confirming it.

Nothing for either side to win my friend. Love your passion! Believe it or not, when I was younger I also had the zealot in me. We just did have the boards back then, AOL Chat rooms were just starting. 03-lmfao I am happy cynic, if Uconn were to get invited to the ACC, I would be happy for you and UCONN fans. I gladly say "I got that wrong and welcome to the family." I think SMU, CINCI, HOUSTON & NAVY (FO) would be ahead of you all. I think TX, OK, OSU, TT and/or KU will bolt B12 after GOR, the play for the ACC should be TCU even though Texas will get the first offer. Just my thoughts, I will just be happy to be around to see if I was right or wrong on that prediction. 04-cheers
10-06-2017 08:22 AM
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Hokie Mark Online
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Post: #184
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-06-2017 07:23 AM)Huskies12 Wrote:  You could argue UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU were undervalued and any team would have increased the contract. If you argue the new teams drive the contract value Pitt and Syracuse are worth more to ESPN than UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU

...and you'd be 100% correct. The increase in ACC media rights which came after adding Syracuse and Pitt were equal to the market value of the additional games, plain and simple. The previous contract was undervalued; the new contract was market rate.
10-06-2017 10:59 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #185
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-06-2017 10:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(10-06-2017 07:23 AM)Huskies12 Wrote:  You could argue UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU were undervalued and any team would have increased the contract. If you argue the new teams drive the contract value Pitt and Syracuse are worth more to ESPN than UNC, Duke, Clemson and FSU

...and you'd be 100% correct. The increase in ACC media rights which came after adding Syracuse and Pitt were equal to the market value of the additional games, plain and simple. The previous contract was undervalued; the new contract was market rate.

The previous contract (2010) was market value at the time it was signed, as was the adjustment once Pitt and Syracuse joined. The market just went up during that time, for college sports generally.

And make no mistake - the new ACCN won't reflect the full true current market value of ACC athletics, any more than the SECN does. That's because the ACC is still hamstrung by the terms of the 2010 deal which you signed before the market shot upwards. ESPN isn't giving you back anywhere near the full value they captured in that deal, they don't have to, because they own you for years anyway.

Bottom line is that whatever your cut of ACCN revenues is, it would be considerably more had you not signed that 2010 deal.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2017 11:13 AM by quo vadis.)
10-06-2017 11:11 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #186
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-05-2017 07:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

Excellent analysis. It kind of confirms what we all kind of figured - regarding the Big 12, it exists at the pleasure of Texas and Oklahoma. They are the 900 and 800 pound gorillas surrounded by a bunch of 100 pound monkeys. Anyone who says schools like Kansas or Oklahoma State are valuable to anyone else are kidding themselves. They aren't even valuable to Texas and Oklahoma, save in the sense that those two need at least 8 other warm bodies to make a conference, and they are the warmest stiffs available.

It also tells us that why the ACC has done some very un-ACC like things the last few years, like admit an athletic mercenary like Louisville and permit a partial affiliation in Notre Dame: Their value is inherently low, so they were desperate.

And I know, ACC fans will say "well, this is our value before the ACCN kicks in", and that's true. But wake me up when the ACCN kicking in results in a substantial boosts to those values.

To illustrate your take on the Big 12 here are the WSJ football valuations for that conference the number next to the schools name will be their national ranking in valuation:

2. Texas: $1,243,124,000
3. Oklahoma: $1,001,967,000
29. Oklahoma State: $285,293,000
30. Kansas State: $277,208,000
34. Texas Tech: $246,871,000
41. Iowa State: $196,973,000
43. Kansas: $183,031,000
48. T.C.U.: $153,631,000
59. Baylor: $103,591,000
66. West Virginia: $72,649,000

So you can look at the positioning and see just how much of a dwarf that most of them are. What is misleading here is that Kansas basketball value added to their moribund football value would probably elevate them above Iowa State, and Texas Tech and maybe even Kansas State, but probably not Oklahoma State where basketball and baseball add as well.

You can also see why the Texa-homa package would work if required. They average added valuation for the four would be 694,313,750 which exceeds the SEC per school average by 171,000,000 per school, the Big 10 by 279,000,000 per school and blows away anything the PAC or ACC presently has. But truly nobody from the Big 12 moves alone without either Texas or Oklahoma, or both.

In short 60% of the total valuation of the Big 12 belongs to Texas and Oklahoma. The other 8 schools combined contribute the final 40% of their total valuation.

But in fairness 1. Ohio State: $1,510,482,000 & 6. Michigan: $892,951,000 represent 42.3% of the Big 10's total valuation.

After #7 Notre Dame: $856,938,000 the next closest ACC school is #20 Florida State $385,339,000.

It's hard to put any stock in these numbers without knowing and understanding the methodology of the researcher, and the purpose of the study.
10-06-2017 11:14 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #187
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-06-2017 11:14 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 07:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

Excellent analysis. It kind of confirms what we all kind of figured - regarding the Big 12, it exists at the pleasure of Texas and Oklahoma. They are the 900 and 800 pound gorillas surrounded by a bunch of 100 pound monkeys. Anyone who says schools like Kansas or Oklahoma State are valuable to anyone else are kidding themselves. They aren't even valuable to Texas and Oklahoma, save in the sense that those two need at least 8 other warm bodies to make a conference, and they are the warmest stiffs available.

It also tells us that why the ACC has done some very un-ACC like things the last few years, like admit an athletic mercenary like Louisville and permit a partial affiliation in Notre Dame: Their value is inherently low, so they were desperate.

And I know, ACC fans will say "well, this is our value before the ACCN kicks in", and that's true. But wake me up when the ACCN kicking in results in a substantial boosts to those values.

To illustrate your take on the Big 12 here are the WSJ football valuations for that conference the number next to the schools name will be their national ranking in valuation:

2. Texas: $1,243,124,000
3. Oklahoma: $1,001,967,000
29. Oklahoma State: $285,293,000
30. Kansas State: $277,208,000
34. Texas Tech: $246,871,000
41. Iowa State: $196,973,000
43. Kansas: $183,031,000
48. T.C.U.: $153,631,000
59. Baylor: $103,591,000
66. West Virginia: $72,649,000

So you can look at the positioning and see just how much of a dwarf that most of them are. What is misleading here is that Kansas basketball value added to their moribund football value would probably elevate them above Iowa State, and Texas Tech and maybe even Kansas State, but probably not Oklahoma State where basketball and baseball add as well.

You can also see why the Texa-homa package would work if required. They average added valuation for the four would be 694,313,750 which exceeds the SEC per school average by 171,000,000 per school, the Big 10 by 279,000,000 per school and blows away anything the PAC or ACC presently has. But truly nobody from the Big 12 moves alone without either Texas or Oklahoma, or both.

In short 60% of the total valuation of the Big 12 belongs to Texas and Oklahoma. The other 8 schools combined contribute the final 40% of their total valuation.

But in fairness 1. Ohio State: $1,510,482,000 & 6. Michigan: $892,951,000 represent 42.3% of the Big 10's total valuation.

After #7 Notre Dame: $856,938,000 the next closest ACC school is #20 Florida State $385,339,000.

It's hard to put any stock in these numbers without knowing and understanding the methodology of the researcher, and the purpose of the study.

Yawn!
10-06-2017 02:06 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #188
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
Based on what we see regarding the reality of the revenue generating sports in college athletics...burn it all to the ground. Sports at this level are fighting an uphill battle against a number of forces that will erode the demand to consume these products.
  • Unprecedented levels of entertainment options available today
  • The politicization of sports (NFL, for starters) leagues and sports reporting (ESPN)
  • Challenges due to long term injury prospects - especially the emergence of the CTE studies - resulting in reduced participation in by kids in football
  • The spotlight being shined on thuggish behavior amongst the athletes in the revenue sports and their respective pro counterparts
  • Long term changes in how people will pursue university degrees
  • Continued education tuition increases that will reduce demand for obtaining degrees in the traditional way - with future alternatives coming to the forefront to cut into the "Big Education" money pie.

I'd say enjoy it while you can, because it's going to come crashing down sooner or later.
10-07-2017 02:23 PM
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Hokie Mark Online
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Post: #189
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
West Virginia is clearly a better football team than UConn.

(That WAS the OP question, right?)
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10-07-2017 04:18 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #190
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-05-2017 05:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

Excellent analysis. It kind of confirms what we all kind of figured - regarding the Big 12, it exists at the pleasure of Texas and Oklahoma. They are the 900 and 800 pound gorillas surrounded by a bunch of 100 pound monkeys. Anyone who says schools like Kansas or Oklahoma State are valuable to anyone else are kidding themselves. They aren't even valuable to Texas and Oklahoma, save in the sense that those two need at least 8 other warm bodies to make a conference, and they are the warmest stiffs available.

It also tells us that why the ACC has done some very un-ACC like things the last few years, like admit an athletic mercenary like Louisville and permit a partial affiliation in Notre Dame: Their value is inherently low, so they were desperate.

And I know, ACC fans will say "well, this is our value before the ACCN kicks in", and that's true. But wake me up when the ACCN kicking in results in a substantial boosts to those values.

The “900 pound gorillas” need to start beating the “100 pound monkeys”. Iowa St beating OU in Norman is a bit embarrassing considering it’s only the 2nd time since 1960 that ISU has beaten Oklahoma. Texas has been a steamy pile of feces for awhile...both were hot, wet, stinky pieces of shart in basketball last season. Losing records....
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2017 05:57 PM by billybobby777.)
10-07-2017 05:51 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #191
RE: "West Virginia or UConn would have been a better choice."
(10-07-2017 05:51 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  This clearly indicates that why N.D. even as a partial is so valuable to the ACC. Notre Dame's part time presence increases even the valuations of the ACC schools without being considered fully. Otherwise the average valuation of $182,383,929 would be a tad lower.

So adding either W.V.U. or Connecticut would only detract from the average valuation of the ACC. Louisville increased it.

That's why Louisville was added, and why they aren't likely to be booted.

It's also partly why the Big 12 is still alive. Only Texas and Oklahoma add to the value of the SEC and Big 10. They still add even if O.S.U. and T.T.U. are taken. But O.S.U. and T.T.U. don't add to either the SEC's or B1G's bottom line (academics not being considered to their detriment). So if OU and UT don't go to the Big 10 or SEC where they would earn the most by quite a bit, then they have an Officer and a Gentlemen's moment, "I got nowhere else to go!" Hence the survival of the Big 12.

Excellent analysis. It kind of confirms what we all kind of figured - regarding the Big 12, it exists at the pleasure of Texas and Oklahoma. They are the 900 and 800 pound gorillas surrounded by a bunch of 100 pound monkeys. Anyone who says schools like Kansas or Oklahoma State are valuable to anyone else are kidding themselves. They aren't even valuable to Texas and Oklahoma, save in the sense that those two need at least 8 other warm bodies to make a conference, and they are the warmest stiffs available.

It also tells us that why the ACC has done some very un-ACC like things the last few years, like admit an athletic mercenary like Louisville and permit a partial affiliation in Notre Dame: Their value is inherently low, so they were desperate.

And I know, ACC fans will say "well, this is our value before the ACCN kicks in", and that's true. But wake me up when the ACCN kicking in results in a substantial boosts to those values.

The “900 pound gorillas” need to start beating the “100 pound monkeys”. Iowa St beating OU in Norman is a bit embarrassing considering it’s only the 2nd time since 1960 that ISU has beaten Oklahoma. Texas has been a steamy pile of feces for awhile...both were hot, wet, stinky pieces of shart in basketball last season. Losing records....

I thought Iowa State was more like a tree sloth than a hundred pound monkey, but your point still stands.
10-07-2017 08:53 PM
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