(09-24-2017 09:51 PM)TripleA Wrote: The guy has been there for one year. Last year got blown up in part by dissident players. They all left.
It bugs me that Memphis fans have so little patience that they want to dump Tubby after one year. Many of them wanted to dump him when he was hired.
Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's not the right guy, but we'll know for sure in a year or two.
There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
(09-24-2017 09:51 PM)TripleA Wrote: The guy has been there for one year. Last year got blown up in part by dissident players. They all left.
It bugs me that Memphis fans have so little patience that they want to dump Tubby after one year. Many of them wanted to dump him when he was hired.
Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's not the right guy, but we'll know for sure in a year or two.
There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
(09-24-2017 09:51 PM)TripleA Wrote: The guy has been there for one year. Last year got blown up in part by dissident players. They all left.
It bugs me that Memphis fans have so little patience that they want to dump Tubby after one year. Many of them wanted to dump him when he was hired.
Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's not the right guy, but we'll know for sure in a year or two.
There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
Let's see how it goes another couple of years.
True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
(09-22-2017 07:51 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote: The ramifications of poor 2017 recruiting (if it exists - WSU only had one recruit for example) will not be experienced until the 2017-18 season.
Do you have super powers? I can you see so far into the future?
No, just common sense. For example, a team recruiting 2 star players last year will be playing this year and it will tend to reduce the overall talent level of the team. It is harder to win games with inferior talent compared to the opposition.
Signing highly ranked recruits is always nice and most often, it might help your team. However, I don't go overboard on "star power". Our good teams have been usually experienced teams with 5th year Seniors, Juco transfers (other transfers too), a 4* Freshman or two, a 2* or two and mostly 3* players. Hell, Ron Baker was a Nothing* and a one year walk on for a year because we had no scholarships to give. His only offer was from UALR. The common denominator were that they were great kids, who didn't seek the lime light, were unselfish, listened to coaches, played defense hard, rebounded hard, provided great leadership, and just wanted to win no matter what it took. I don't know if he holds that recipe or not but Maybe Tubby will surprise you. Just don't become overly obsessed with "star power".
Marshall has won ten NCAA Tourney games in the past five years - an outstanding result.
However, Calipari (despite missing the Tourney in 2013) has won 13 NCAA Tourney games in five years. Is the reason Calipari has better results than Marshall is because Calipari is a better coach? Of course, the answer is no. The main reason KY does well is because of superior talent advantage as represented by "stars" and ratings.
Talent is the most important factor for success in basketball.. It is such a self-evident fact that I am shocked that it is a subject to debate. Who would win more: Golden St coached by a fan or a high school coached by Marshall, Coach K, or any coach you name? Coaches spend great amounts of time and treasure on recruiting for good reason. Besides, Marshall, unlike Tubby, has shown the capacity to recruit four stars.
Furthermore, it is a myth that Tubby is a great coach. Great coaches - like Marshall - earn more than one NCAA victory in ten years.
We have some correlative fallacy going on here.
Yes, better recruits bring better results all things being equal, but the recruit rating system is about as far from perfect as it gets. Yes, Calipari has won a few more tournament games than Marshall over 5 years; yes, Calipari had higher rated recruits on average by a significant margin, but Calipari doesn't just have high-ranked recruits, he has the best high-ranked recruits. I could put together a team of 4 and 5 star players that absolutely will underperform regardless of the coach. Sure they'll be flashy, but they will either be lazy, have mental problems, or have thuggish inclinations and get into trouble.
About the only strong argument you made with your post is that Marshall could very well be a better basketball coach than Calipari - pound for pound.
P.S. I also do not believe that talent is the most important factor for success in college basketball. I think work ethic and mental maturity/BBIQ are equally important. If you are missing one of those 3 factors your "5-star" player is gonna be a work in progress. I think 85% of a recruiting service rating on a player is based on his physical tools alone.
Both Fred VanVleet and Ron Baker's greatest assets were their work ethic and brains(BBIQ). If I were to rate both of them based on the three categories I previously mentioned it would be as follows:
Fred VanVleet: Physical talent 2.75*, work ethic 5*, BBIQ 5*
Ron Baker: Physical talent 3.5*, work ethic 5*, BBIQ 5*
Nothing supremely flashy about either with regards to physicality, but they were light years ahead of the competition between the ears. The game moved in slow motion for them at all times and it was a sight to behold.
Shocker fans can relate to the Matrix clip when Morpheus says, "he's the one." We said the exact same thing shortly into Fred VanVleet's freshman season. Then we experienced deja vu with Ron Baker. Imagine having 2 Neo's on your basketball team at the same time and you'll know what it felt like to be a Shocker fan from 2012-2016.
(09-24-2017 09:51 PM)TripleA Wrote: The guy has been there for one year. Last year got blown up in part by dissident players. They all left.
It bugs me that Memphis fans have so little patience that they want to dump Tubby after one year. Many of them wanted to dump him when he was hired.
Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's not the right guy, but we'll know for sure in a year or two.
There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
Let's see how it goes another couple of years.
True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
Why judge while the test is still ongoing? In your case, you were setting standards for the new coach a year before Pastner was fired.
As for the statement, do you REALLY think I meant ALL Memphis fans? That's ridiculous. Of course it's some percentage.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 10:28 AM by TripleA.)
(09-24-2017 09:51 PM)TripleA Wrote: The guy has been there for one year. Last year got blown up in part by dissident players. They all left.
It bugs me that Memphis fans have so little patience that they want to dump Tubby after one year. Many of them wanted to dump him when he was hired.
Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's not the right guy, but we'll know for sure in a year or two.
There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
Let's see how it goes another couple of years.
True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
Why judge while the test is still ongoing? In your case, you were setting standards for the new coach a year before Pastner was fired.
As for the statement, do you REALLY think I meant ALL Memphis fans? That's ridiculous. Of course it's some percentage.
There are factors leading to success , decisions made, and results that may be evaluated now. For example, losing the last two games last season by margins not seen in decades and perhaps ever are unfavorable outcomes (IMO, you may disagree) and is a legitimate subject for discussion. Look at it as an interim evaluation.
In your case, you have no performance standards for Tubby. Anything he does now and in the future is ok with you, it appears.
I did not know exactly what you meant, but I figured it meant "a lot" and if so I disagree. Again, it is a minor thing.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 11:44 AM by Tiger1983.)
(09-24-2017 11:02 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote: There is no chorus among Tiger fans calling for Tubby's head after only one year. I, for example, give him up to three years to make the NCAA Tourney (barring a Moe Iba type season). Rather, there is concern by some Tiger fans about the direction of the program under Tubby. It does not look good now.
I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
Let's see how it goes another couple of years.
True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
Why judge while the test is still ongoing? In your case, you were setting standards for the new coach a year before Pastner was fired.
As for the statement, do you REALLY think I meant ALL Memphis fans? That's ridiculous. Of course it's some percentage.
There are factors leading to success , decisions made, and results that may be evaluated now. For example, losing the last two games last season by margins not seen in decades and perhaps ever are unfavorable outcomes (IMO, you may disagree) and is a legitimate subject for discussion. Look at it as an interim evaluation.
In your case, you have no performance standards for Tubby. Anything he does now and in the future is ok with you, it appears.
I did not know exactly what you meant, but I figured it meant "a lot" and if so I disagree. Again, it is a minor thing.
I have no performance standards for Tubby? No, I just don't have yours, which you had a year before he showed up. I don't give a crap about all those things you blame on Tubby. To me, he was hired to win at a certain level. How you do it should be irrelevant, other than getting us sanctioned.
My standard for any new coach is, if we just fired his predecessor for poor performance, then you have to give the new guy at least 2-3 years before you make any long term judgment on him.
IMO, we were doing better than expected last season, until the last few games, then we completely fell apart. I will give Tubby the benefit of the doubt, b/c the Lawson thing was beyond his control, IMO.
(09-25-2017 06:20 AM)TripleA Wrote: I didn't say there was a chorus, although I think there are more than you apparently think. But there are a number who are extremely unhappy, such as yourself, and I still think it's too early to judge. He has coached one year. He won 19 games. He never was a great recruiter or PR man, but fans act like they just discovered this.
Let's see how it goes another couple of years.
True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
Why judge while the test is still ongoing? In your case, you were setting standards for the new coach a year before Pastner was fired.
As for the statement, do you REALLY think I meant ALL Memphis fans? That's ridiculous. Of course it's some percentage.
There are factors leading to success , decisions made, and results that may be evaluated now. For example, losing the last two games last season by margins not seen in decades and perhaps ever are unfavorable outcomes (IMO, you may disagree) and is a legitimate subject for discussion. Look at it as an interim evaluation.
In your case, you have no performance standards for Tubby. Anything he does now and in the future is ok with you, it appears.
I did not know exactly what you meant, but I figured it meant "a lot" and if so I disagree. Again, it is a minor thing.
I have no performance standards for Tubby? No, I just don't have yours, which you had a year before he showed up. I don't give a crap about all those things you blame on Tubby. To me, he was hired to win at a certain level. How you do it should be irrelevant, other than getting us sanctioned.
My standard for any new coach is, if we just fired his predecessor for poor performance, then you have to give the new guy at least 2-3 years before you make any long term judgment on him.
IMO, we were doing better than expected last season, until the last few games, then we completely fell apart. I will give Tubby the benefit of the doubt, b/c the Lawson thing was beyond his control, IMO.
IMO, your performance standards are vague because there are no specfic benchmarks. My expectations stated in this thread - which thanks to you were better honed - are specfic and measurable.
I do not give a flip if you wish to ignore the warning signs and Tubby's role in it for the upcoming season and beyond. I respect your choice. My choice is to discuss all aspects of Tiger basketball.
How many years has Tubby coached for you guys again? After Marshall's first year I thought he was completely overmatched and needed to book the first flight back to the Big South. Apparently he did too because he walked into the AD's office and asked to be fired. AD Jim Schaus said he would have nothing of it and to get back to work. Gregg Marshall then went back to his assistants emboldened promptly directing them to recruit players tall enough to require Marshall to have to look up or find new jobs. The rest is history.
(09-25-2017 08:02 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote: True, but you made a broad claim when you did not qualify ".... Memphis fans have so little patience ..." with words like "some" or "few" and I interpreted your intent was to cast a wide net. It is a minor thing (I do it sometimes myself) and thanks for the clarification.
Agree that he needs more time to prove his worth. Disagree that he should not be evaluated for elements of his job performance to date (e.g., PR, transfers, & recruiting).
Why judge while the test is still ongoing? In your case, you were setting standards for the new coach a year before Pastner was fired.
As for the statement, do you REALLY think I meant ALL Memphis fans? That's ridiculous. Of course it's some percentage.
There are factors leading to success , decisions made, and results that may be evaluated now. For example, losing the last two games last season by margins not seen in decades and perhaps ever are unfavorable outcomes (IMO, you may disagree) and is a legitimate subject for discussion. Look at it as an interim evaluation.
In your case, you have no performance standards for Tubby. Anything he does now and in the future is ok with you, it appears.
I did not know exactly what you meant, but I figured it meant "a lot" and if so I disagree. Again, it is a minor thing.
I have no performance standards for Tubby? No, I just don't have yours, which you had a year before he showed up. I don't give a crap about all those things you blame on Tubby. To me, he was hired to win at a certain level. How you do it should be irrelevant, other than getting us sanctioned.
My standard for any new coach is, if we just fired his predecessor for poor performance, then you have to give the new guy at least 2-3 years before you make any long term judgment on him.
IMO, we were doing better than expected last season, until the last few games, then we completely fell apart. I will give Tubby the benefit of the doubt, b/c the Lawson thing was beyond his control, IMO.
IMO, your performance standards are vague because there are no specfic benchmarks. My expectations stated in this thread - which thanks to you were better honed - are specfic and measurable.
I do not give a flip if you wish to ignore the warning signs and Tubby's role in it for the upcoming season and beyond. I respect your choice. My choice is to discuss all aspects of Tiger basketball.
(09-25-2017 03:44 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote: How many years has Tubby coached for you guys again? After Marshall's first year I thought he was completely overmatched and needed to book the first flight back to the Big South. Apparently he did too because he walked into the AD's office and asked to be fired. AD Jim Schaus said he would have nothing of it and to get back to work. Gregg Marshall then went back to his assistants emboldened promptly directing them to recruit players tall enough to require Marshall to have to look up or find new jobs. The rest is history.
I see the Memphis Tiger fan bickering amongst themselves has spilled over into the AAC board. This is a trademark of the Memphis board lol. Well done gents...carry on.
(09-26-2017 06:40 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: I see the Memphis Tiger fan bickering amongst themselves has spilled over into the AAC board. This is a trademark of the Memphis board lol. Well done gents...carry on.
(09-25-2017 03:44 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote: How many years has Tubby coached for you guys again? After Marshall's first year I thought he was completely overmatched and needed to book the first flight back to the Big South. Apparently he did too because he walked into the AD's office and asked to be fired. AD Jim Schaus said he would have nothing of it and to get back to work. Gregg Marshall then went back to his assistants emboldened promptly directing them to recruit players tall enough to require Marshall to have to look up or find new jobs. The rest is history.
T
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There is the practical matter of Tubby's age. He is 66 years old and he does not have the same amount of time as a younger coach like Marshall to turn things around. Also, at Memphis it is doable to enter the NCAA Tourney by year three of a coach's tenure. In the last 45 years, every coach earned an NCAA bid by their third year with the exception of Price (fired due to scandal after two years) and Jones (Calipari replaced him after one year).
