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17Huskies Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:21 AM)Djud Wrote:  I don't get how/why Santa's success is at Graham expense. Graham did exactly what he was asked to do against BC; he put us in a position to win (or not lose) the game. That's exactly why Carey started him. He was far more experienced than Santa; and he clearly felt that the QB position did not have to win the game, instead it simply had to avoid not losing it...he was a play away from being right. With that being said, the abilty to throw the ball deep cannot be overstated. It spreads the field and opens up passing and running lanes. That is huge! Unless you have a freak like Lynch at QB, you need a vertical passing attack for this offense to be truly effective. Santa made a few bad decisions yesterday, but that apparently this is what you get with him; he thinks he can make every play. I do think he is being coached up. The most encouraging plays were the two or three purposeful "throw always" that went deep into the sidelines when there was no play; that's a sign he is being coached up. He now has basically 9 quarters of college football under his belt. Lets not overstate (or understate) what he did. It's been a long time since we seen passes like that; but next week is a far different opponent. Final thought ... Graham appears to be a great kid and a great teammate; can we keep from bashing a kid who is doing nothing other than his absolute best. I watched the Tennessee game last week and saw the 2nd team QB pout like a 5 year old on the sideline, hoping the starter screwed up. I don't see that at all from any of ou pr QB's; is is remotely possible that Carey should get some credit for this?

did you just give a coach or admin credit on this board? You may want to duck....
09-10-2017 11:25 AM
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uiniu57 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Santa v. Graham
Hoping someone will provide an answer, so pasting my post 272 from the end of the EIU game thread:

NIU32 Wrote: (Yesterday 06:32 PM)
So Carey literally started the worst QB of the 3. Childers looked like our best option for our QB run game and Santa is the best passer.
7 Wrote: (Yesterday 06:11 PM)
You judged anything from Childers off 10 snaps against EIU's backups? WHAT? The 3 are probably all pretty interchangeable in the run game. You could tell NIU made an effort to protect Santa in the run game against an inferior opponent today.
NIU32 Wrote:
Absolutely! I think it took less than 10 snaps to tell that Childers is a better athlete/playmaker than Graham. Everybody has seen enough of Graham to know what he is, a 3rd string QB who can't throw, isn't athletic, and isn't tough. Interchangeable? Come on.

Ten snaps against EIU's back-ups is just enough for me to make one judgement. Does Carey have a clue coaching?
Family issue resulted in missing the game while at the emergency room, so by the time everything is taken care of and we finally get to leave, prescriptions picked up, everyone is back home, it's late in a long day and I toss the unused tickets, then go look at the box score. Can someone tell me WHY with a 31-3 halftime lead and a 38-3 lead entering the fourth quarter that Childers only got to play the last 7:55 per the play-by-play? Yes, I understand the significance of Santa getting more snaps for experience, but come on.... Regardless of what anyone thinks of Graham, Santa is the QB for the next game and you're beating Eastern Illinois, why risk him getting hurt? Why not give your current No. 2 QB an opportunity when you've got a four touchdown lead? To me this is another indictment of Carey not being a smart coach. [/align]
09-10-2017 11:26 AM
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Rabid Squirrel Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

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I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
09-10-2017 11:29 AM
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7 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

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I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
You're not wrong, but don't you think the vast majority of coaches would play the guy who looks better in practice?

Santa def has some "gamer" to him. May just be one of those guys who plays better than he practices.
09-10-2017 11:34 AM
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7 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:26 AM)uiniu57 Wrote:  Hoping someone will provide an answer, so pasting my post 272 from the end of the EIU game thread:

NIU32 Wrote: (Yesterday 06:32 PM)
So Carey literally started the worst QB of the 3. Childers looked like our best option for our QB run game and Santa is the best passer.
7 Wrote: (Yesterday 06:11 PM)
You judged anything from Childers off 10 snaps against EIU's backups? WHAT? The 3 are probably all pretty interchangeable in the run game. You could tell NIU made an effort to protect Santa in the run game against an inferior opponent today.
NIU32 Wrote:
Absolutely! I think it took less than 10 snaps to tell that Childers is a better athlete/playmaker than Graham. Everybody has seen enough of Graham to know what he is, a 3rd string QB who can't throw, isn't athletic, and isn't tough. Interchangeable? Come on.

Ten snaps against EIU's back-ups is just enough for me to make one judgement. Does Carey have a clue coaching?
Family issue resulted in missing the game while at the emergency room, so by the time everything is taken care of and we finally get to leave, prescriptions picked up, everyone is back home, it's late in a long day and I toss the unused tickets, then go look at the box score. Can someone tell me WHY with a 31-3 halftime lead and a 38-3 lead entering the fourth quarter that Childers only got to play the last 7:55 per the play-by-play? Yes, I understand the significance of Santa getting more snaps for experience, but come on.... Regardless of what anyone thinks of Graham, Santa is the QB for the next game and you're beating Eastern Illinois, why risk him getting hurt? Why not give your current No. 2 QB an opportunity when you've got a four touchdown lead? To me this is another indictment of Carey not being a smart coach. [/align]
That was the third game Santa has ever played in. I have no problem with him being out there a little bit longer to get more snaps.
09-10-2017 11:35 AM
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Rabid Squirrel Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:34 AM)7 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

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I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
You're not wrong, but don't you think the vast majority of coaches would play the guy who looks better in practice?

Santa def has some "gamer" to him. May just be one of those guys who plays better than he practices.

It would depend how bad Huff or Santa looked in practice. I get the Graham thing a little more. At least coming into BC. But at this point I think Santa has shown enough that Carey needs to forget about what happens in practice and game plan around Santa. And that's what bugs me about Carey.....just my own speculation, but Carey strikes me as - do it my way or no way. If you have to deviate from what you want to do offensively to fit the QB, do it. Maybe he is. IDK.

Unless Huff was just a complete moron during practice, I don't know why he didn't see 75% of the carries last year and this year. All I can conclude is Carey emphasis his philosophy over performance. A coach does need to have his philosophy and personality imprint on the team, but there is a point of bending it. And for me it's at a career 7 yds per carry.
09-10-2017 11:48 AM
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NIU32 Online
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Post: #27
Santa v. Graham
Santa only had 1 week all of last year to get starter practice reps with the 1st team and then split reps all summer with 2 other guys. I get not wanting to get him hurt, but at some point we need to get him more experience, especially in game situations. Without that, we wouldn't be adequately preparing him to lead the squad vs a solid P5 opponent on the road.

Next week in Lincoln is going to be a tough game for the kid. He won't be playing at EMU or Kent St in front of 500 people or at home vs a FCS team. Really excited for him. This is his big opportunity and hopefully he is able to make the most of it.


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(This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 11:48 AM by NIU32.)
09-10-2017 11:48 AM
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17Huskies Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:48 AM)NIU32 Wrote:  Santa only had 1 week all of last year to get starter practice reps with the 1st team and then split reps all summer with 2 other guys. I get not wanting to get him hurt, but at some point we need to get him more experience, especially in game situations. Without that, we wouldn't be adequately preparing him to lead the squad vs a solid P5 opponent on the road.

Next week in Lincoln is going to be a tough game for the kid. He won't be playing at EMU or Kent St in front of 500 people or at home vs a FCS team. Really excited for him. This is his big opportunity and hopefully he is able to make the most of it.


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Agreed, if he shows some decent things next week, I'll be excited for him.
09-10-2017 12:54 PM
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NIUSAE Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Santa v. Graham
I think the key for Santa's performance next week is the performance of the oline. If they give him enough time and he makes his decisions quicker then he should do fine.
09-10-2017 01:12 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:48 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:34 AM)7 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
You're not wrong, but don't you think the vast majority of coaches would play the guy who looks better in practice?

Santa def has some "gamer" to him. May just be one of those guys who plays better than he practices.

It would depend how bad Huff or Santa looked in practice. I get the Graham thing a little more. At least coming into BC. But at this point I think Santa has shown enough that Carey needs to forget about what happens in practice and game plan around Santa. And that's what bugs me about Carey.....just my own speculation, but Carey strikes me as - do it my way or no way. If you have to deviate from what you want to do offensively to fit the QB, do it. Maybe he is. IDK.

Unless Huff was just a complete moron during practice, I don't know why he didn't see 75% of the carries last year and this year. All I can conclude is Carey emphasis his philosophy over performance. A coach does need to have his philosophy and personality imprint on the team, but there is a point of bending it. And for me it's at a career 7 yds per carry.

Carey is proving year after year what a horrible coach he is. McIntosh over Hare and Maddie. Bouagnon over Huff. Graham over Maddie. Graham over Santa. Jones over Huff. The guy is an idiot.
09-10-2017 01:32 PM
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Djud Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:34 AM)7 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
You're not wrong, but don't you think the vast majority of coaches would play the guy who looks better in practice?

Santa def has some "gamer" to him. May just be one of those guys who plays better than he practices.

I think it's less of a "how they practiced" but more of the different styles of play. Unless I am missing something you (7) had Santa ahead of Graham till the last practice you saw. Against BC, Carey went into a risk management mode; completely logical if he and his staff thought they could win the game with defense, specialty teams, a solid running and big percentage passes; and again he was so close to being right.
09-10-2017 01:34 PM
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uiniu57 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:35 AM)7 Wrote:  That was the third game Santa has ever played in. I have no problem with him being out there a little bit longer to get more snaps.

Yes, but what happens if Santa gets crunched by Nebraska, then you're relying on a guy who has had zero experience and it's a re-run of last year. As soon as someone gets healthy but may still be rusty, Carey will put that guy in and 2018 starts with the same refrain: "we'll see who establishes himself in spring practice ... or leading up to the opener."
Looking at the rest of the schedule, which game do you think we'll be ahead enough --- or getting clobbered to the point of throwing in the towel -- to get time for a back-up. Eastern Illinois was the game when it was an option as opposed to perhaps being a necessity.
09-10-2017 03:51 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
Ok. Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

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09-10-2017 10:46 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-10-2017 10:46 PM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:29 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:17 AM)Teamduh Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 08:15 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 07:42 PM)7 Wrote:  Santa threw at least one ball at a WRs feet (could have been more), threw a few inaccurate screens and on pass threw a pass where I had literally no idea who it was going to (I think there was miscommunication).

If you're going to try to analyze something don't let your bias get in the way of facts.

Santa was better today than Graham was last week, but don't sit here and say santa didn't throw anything inaccurate because that's not true.

Its more about the passes he made. A couple of big time throws. To Tears and Brown. Graham rarely makes those. Santa seems to have a knack for it, though limited evidence. An analogy would be Graham is Bouagnon and Santa is Huff. It's about the upside. The playmaking, game changing ability.
I fail to see the analogy. Huff is splitting time with Jones instead of being the main man like Joel last year.

I agree, the accurate deep passes for Santa were a huge improvement over last week. Let's hope he can continue this the next 2 weeks. Then we can compare the qbs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I use the Bouagnon/Huff analogy just because it fits the Fundementals over upside argument that Carey follows. He will always take the practical - do it right in practice - limit mistakes - over the home run hitter who maybe Has a few lapses mentally. Carey is a Graham/Bouagnon type guy.
Ok. Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

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And add class standing to that, Graham has more years of service and that counts as much or more to Carey than talent.
09-11-2017 12:12 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Santa v. Graham
I think a few of the missed santa throws were purposely thrown because of coverage. One bubble I remember yelling NOOOOOO when he released it and relieved when it was overthrown. I'm sure the same can be said on some of Grahams throws, but some of the wide open receivers that graham missed by a mile were inexcusable. The one play where santa saw the coverage and tried to force it in anyway was very bad on his part and resulted in the pic. The biggest thing I noticed was the coaching that Carey did on the sideline when mistakes were made. you could see him go to the player and put his arm around him and coach him up. He did this all day.

Santa's deep ball is the big difference maker out of the two. I also think we ran less QB run plays which is weird since BC was the better run defence?
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2017 02:04 PM by shack66.)
09-11-2017 02:02 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-11-2017 02:02 PM)shack66 Wrote:  I think a few of the missed santa throws were purposely thrown because of coverage. One bubble I remember yelling NOOOOOO when he released it and relieved when it was overthrown. I'm sure the same can be said on some of Grahams throws, but some of the wide open receivers that graham missed by a mile were inexcusable. The one play where santa saw the coverage and tried to force it in anyway was very bad on his part and resulted in the pic. The biggest thing I noticed was the coaching that Carey did on the sideline when mistakes were made. you could see him go to the player and put his arm around him and coach him up. He did this all day.

Santa's deep ball is the big difference maker out of the two. I also think we ran less QB run plays which is weird since BC was the better run defence?

I don't think NIU will be able to run the bubble screen with Santa against a better defense than EIU. He is extremely slow with that pass.
09-11-2017 02:14 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Santa v. Graham
And I am really afraid Childers will end up transferring. He has the highest ceiling of any QB on the roster, and I really really really hope we do not lose him.
09-11-2017 02:40 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Santa v. Graham
Santa was still playing at the beginning of the 4th quarter, then EIU had the ball for a while, which is why Childers didn't come in until a little later in the 4th quarter. I didn't have a problem with Santa getting one drive in the 4th quarter.

Huff with 7 ypc spread over 3 years makes it quite puzzling that he's on the bench half the time. Especially this year since he blocks better, and he also catches the ball - though Jones did well and is a good change of pace. Though I shouldn't be surprised since our best QB last year got moved to WR. And I'm sure we'll find out that Santa is a better game player than Graham. But then, I'm willing to accept an occasional bad play in order to let a player play the game without getting too tight worrying about making one mistake. Even the best QBs make mistakes occasionally. You can't let that shut down your offense and curl up into a fetal position and hope that the defense can shut out your opponent.
09-11-2017 08:01 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-11-2017 02:14 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 02:02 PM)shack66 Wrote:  I think a few of the missed santa throws were purposely thrown because of coverage. One bubble I remember yelling NOOOOOO when he released it and relieved when it was overthrown. I'm sure the same can be said on some of Grahams throws, but some of the wide open receivers that graham missed by a mile were inexcusable. The one play where santa saw the coverage and tried to force it in anyway was very bad on his part and resulted in the pic. The biggest thing I noticed was the coaching that Carey did on the sideline when mistakes were made. you could see him go to the player and put his arm around him and coach him up. He did this all day.

Santa's deep ball is the big difference maker out of the two. I also think we ran less QB run plays which is weird since BC was the better run defence?

I don't think NIU will be able to run the bubble screen with Santa against a better defense than EIU. He is extremely slow with that pass.

I re-watched the first half of the game - he had some pretty nice short screen passes in the first half. And I think it's something he will likely improve on.
09-11-2017 08:04 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Santa v. Graham
(09-11-2017 08:04 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 02:14 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 02:02 PM)shack66 Wrote:  I think a few of the missed santa throws were purposely thrown because of coverage. One bubble I remember yelling NOOOOOO when he released it and relieved when it was overthrown. I'm sure the same can be said on some of Grahams throws, but some of the wide open receivers that graham missed by a mile were inexcusable. The one play where santa saw the coverage and tried to force it in anyway was very bad on his part and resulted in the pic. The biggest thing I noticed was the coaching that Carey did on the sideline when mistakes were made. you could see him go to the player and put his arm around him and coach him up. He did this all day.

Santa's deep ball is the big difference maker out of the two. I also think we ran less QB run plays which is weird since BC was the better run defence?

I don't think NIU will be able to run the bubble screen with Santa against a better defense than EIU. He is extremely slow with that pass.

I re-watched the first half of the game - he had some pretty nice short screen passes in the first half. And I think it's something he will likely improve on.

I hope so , its just that fraction of a second too long it seems like to me. Didn't really come back to hurt them much against EIU, but against a faster defense, I fear it could be an ugly play and very turnover prone
09-11-2017 08:07 PM
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