Facts do not confuse me. I have neither the time nor the energy to look up who said that rates were sky rocketing under full D control. That is a falsehood. They were not. This is all a self fulfilling prophecy. The right has tried like hell to dismantle or undercut Obomacare at every turn then have the temerity to clinch their pearls and shout "look it isn't working". It just needs tweaked. Starting with dismantling Runio's misadventure of undercutting the corridors. You have to fix it and it's a pipe dream at this point to get rid of it. It needs to be stabilized. That's all.

IMO, all health care systems have flaws, blind spots and major weaknesses. If the Republicans were able to repeal and replace on their own, I am certain there would be lots of issues. The Dems would be able to use that system the same way the Reps did and demonize it and use it as a political wedge. We need a bipartisan bill that recognizes "hey, this isn't perfect, but lets get it to work as well as possible and move on". The industry needs stability, not continued yo-yoing at the hands of partisan politics.

Truthfully if I'm Trump and the Republicans, tweaking Obamacare might be the best political option. Get it off the table and move onto tax reform or other priorities. You avoid the backlash that getting rid of Obamacare would result in and probably keep power for a few more years if the economy doesn't go into a downturn. And I would be worried that a wave Dem election as a reaction to "replace" could allow a Medicare for all response, which would be even harder to undo. Not only does a bipartisan deal give political cover, it makes it harder for the Dems to offer up something more liberal any time soon.

(09-11-2017 07:38 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Facts do not confuse me. I have neither the time nor the energy to look up who said that rates were sky rocketing under full D control. That is a falsehood. They were not. This is all a self fulfilling prophecy. The right has tried like hell to dismantle or undercut Obomacare at every turn then have the temerity to clinch their pearls and shout "look it isn't working". It just needs tweaked. Starting with dismantling Runio's misadventure of undercutting the corridors. You have to fix it and it's a pipe dream at this point to get rid of it. It needs to be stabilized. That's all.

How should it be stabilized?

I'm ofbthe opinion that we have A VAT style national sales tax to stabilize the markets.

(09-11-2017 09:55 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm ofbthe opinion that we have A VAT style national sales tax to stabilize the markets.

Typical leftist. "Just throw more money at it!"

The markets are never going to be stable as long as you allow people to enroll only when they need insurance. Eventually more and more people are going to realize that they too can be a freeloader and keep that money they are putting in the pot with every paycheck or monthly premiums.

But I'm sure when that happens you'll come up with some other wonderful scheme to separate me from more of my money to pay for the freeloaders.

No,

I am not devising a scheme to separate you from your money. A gentleman asked what I would do. I answered that. The problem is not going away. We can continue to *****, moan, and complain or we can find solutions. One man's scheme is another man's solution. What is your solution Kaplony? Other than they die?

(09-11-2017 01:09 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No,

I am not devising a scheme to separate you from your money. A gentleman asked what I would do. I answered that. The problem is not going away. We can continue to *****, moan, and complain or we can find solutions. One man's scheme is another man's solution. What is your solution Kaplony? Other than they die?

Severe penalty for lapses in coverage without a legitimate explanation. If health insurance is going to work people can't jump in and out and expect to be covered. Nobody rides for free.

Higher rates for the chronically ill and older. Not astronomically higher but higher. Obese, smokers, drinkers, dangerous lifestyles should pay more too.

Those who are under 25, or are male, or have a history of accidents or a history or reckless driving and or speeding tickets are more likely users of their auto insurance and therefore pay higher rates. Health insurance has to work the same.

(09-11-2017 01:09 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No,

I am not devising a scheme to separate you from your money. A gentleman asked what I would do. I answered that. The problem is not going away. We can continue to *****, moan, and complain or we can find solutions. One man's scheme is another man's solution. What is your solution Kaplony? Other than they die?

My solution is the fact that I'm not responsible for the healthcare of anybody but me, my wife, and my minor son. To be totally and brutally honest Mach I don't give a tinker's damn if you or anybody else has health insurance or not as paying for healthcare is a personal responsibility, not a core function of our government.

Up until you or anybody else can show me where in the United States Constitution that health insurance became a right I'll hold that belief. I've been responsible enough my entire adult life to pay my own way and the only thing I hear from you and the rest of the left is that as reward for having said personal responsibility I now get to pay more and more and more to take care of the freeloaders. Enough is enough.

Every single time one of you leftists open your mouths about taking more of my money I get a better understanding why in 1775 men were brave enough to put down the plow and go to war against the preeminent military power of the day.

A sales tax to cover it is the fairest way. Add 1% to every financial transaction and the case is solved. No more complaining. The problem is not going away Kaplony. If that isn't crystal clear to you by now you will never get it. They think the Senate had 41 votes and even that wasn't a clear repeal. Far from it. You can half your half baked ideas all you want but in the end I have solutions. You have rhetoric.

(09-11-2017 02:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A sales tax to cover it is the fairest way. Add 1% to every financial transaction and the case is solved.

Like I said....all you have is to throw more money at it. Money coming out of MY pocket.

BTW that doesn't fix the fundamental problems of Obamacare. All you are doing is postponing the inevitable collapse.

Quote:No more complaining.

LOL Yeah right.

Quote: The problem is not going away Kaplony.

Of course it isn't. People like free **** so despite the fact that Obamacare was from the get-go fatally flawed fundamentally it's popular. Your "solution" does absolutely nothing to solve the problems either. To put it in medical terms all you are doing is treating the symptoms, not addressing what is causing the problem.

Quote: If that isn't crystal clear to you by now you will never get it. They think the Senate had 41 votes and even that wasn't a clear repeal. Far from it. You can half your half baked ideas all you want but in the end I have solutions. You have rhetoric.

LOL What a ******* joke.

You want me to make your house and car payments next?

(09-11-2017 07:38 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Facts do not confuse me. I have neither the time nor the energy to look up who said that rates were sky rocketing under full D control. That is a falsehood. They were not. This is all a self fulfilling prophecy. The right has tried like hell to dismantle or undercut Obomacare at every turn then have the temerity to clinch their pearls and shout "look it isn't working". It just needs tweaked. Starting with dismantling Runio's misadventure of undercutting the corridors. You have to fix it and it's a pipe dream at this point to get rid of it. It needs to be stabilized. That's all.

You wont look it up because you already know the answer. By the way, the name "corridors" is just another way of describing insurance company bail outs---which will be endless because the basic concept of not paying for insurance until you get sick guarantees that many will simply not buy it until they need it. Thats a model that will never be profitable. Worse yet--it drives up the cost for those that DO buy it. As the price rises, more people opt to drop it knowing they will buy it when they need it---whcih creates increasing prices, which drives more people to drop the insurance. Its a self feeding downward spiral. Like I said, its not something that can be "tweaked". Its a structural fault that is essentially is an outgrowth of the most popular backbone provision of the program.

Where did I say you have to make my car payment? I was asked what I would do and yes that would solve it. The FUNDAMENTAL issue is that people get sick and need a Dr. Yes even those po' folk will get sick. Sorry that I think that they should get treatment and have continued access to a Dr. You are not paying for anybody. You are paying a sales tax and that money can be used to supplement Obamacare. You pay a gasoline tax. Do I hear you complaining that you are paying for some po folk to use the highway? Where is it written in the constitution that we should have interstates? Where is it written that we should have NASA? Is that highway free ****? Yes or No? Is the benefits we have gotten from the space program free ****? Where is it written in the constitution we should have a farm bill? That's the point of government simple one. Things don't have to be spelled out in the constitution to be implemented into laws for the color by number crowd.

(09-11-2017 02:08 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-11-2017 02:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A sales tax to cover it is the fairest way. Add 1% to every financial transaction and the case is solved.

Like I said....all you have is to throw more money at it. Money coming out of MY pocket.

BTW that doesn't fix the fundamental problems of Obamacare. All you are doing is postponing the inevitable collapse.

Quote:No more complaining.

LOL Yeah right.

Quote: The problem is not going away Kaplony.

Of course it isn't. People like free **** so despite the fact that Obamacare was from the get-go fatally flawed fundamentally it's popular. Your "solution" does absolutely nothing to solve the problems either. To put it in medical terms all you are doing is treating the symptoms, not addressing what is causing the problem.

Quote: If that isn't crystal clear to you by now you will never get it. They think the Senate had 41 votes and even that wasn't a clear repeal. Far from it. You can half your half baked ideas all you want but in the end I have solutions. You have rhetoric.

LOL What a ******* joke.

You want me to make your house and car payments next?

It astonishes me how people thinking adding ANOTHER tax will somehow fix a myriad of issues. If one has to add ANOTHER tax to fix an issue then the problem is the issue itself, not the need for funding, etc.

(09-11-2017 02:19 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Where did I say you have to make my car payment? I was asked what I would do and yes that would solve it. The FUNDAMENTAL issue is that people get sick and need a Dr. Yes even those po' folk will get sick. Sorry that I think that they should get treatment and have continued access to a Dr. You are not paying for anybody. You are paying a sales tax and that money can be used to supplement Obamacare. You pay a gasoline tax. Do I hear you complaining that you are paying for some po folk to use the highway? Where is it written in the constitution that we should have interstates? Where is it written that we should have NASA? Is that highway free ****? Yes or No? Is the benefits we have gotten from the space program free ****? Where is it written in the constitution we should have a farm bill? That's the point of government simple one. Things don't have to be spelled out in the constitution to be implemented into laws for the color by number crowd.

The problem is Obamacare has created a system that forces the middle class to pay for the poor and leaves them unable to afford insurance for themselves. Obamacare also built a program where the cost will spiral endlessly upward. Obamacare hasnt "solved" anything. Obamacare just changed who did and didnt get insurance. Worse yet, not only did it create a entirely new population of uninsured---it spent trillions to do it. You'd have been better off just giving away money for insurance payments and letting people buy whatever insurance they wanted to in the existing private market.

There's a big difference between building needed interstates and taking over all the roads.

That's the core problem with Obamacare. Instead of simply addressing the uninsured, they tried to take over everything.

Political philosophies aside, there are only a few people in government and hundreds of millions using healthcare. We need to let those who can manage themselves do so. That simplifies the remaining problem.

This is such a mischaracterization of what actually is happening. Guess what guys. Under the old system the people who didn't work had the gold card. The working poor were the ones who were squeezed. This seems to be a state issue. If you live in a red state and are seeing rates sky rocket ask yourself why? Could it be those red states have tried to do everything they can to dismantle it? Why was Kentucky having so much success with it? Why is it more popular there? The answers are out there.

(09-11-2017 02:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This is such a mischaracterization of what actually is happening. Guess what guys. Under the old system the people who didn't work had the gold card. The working poor were the ones who were squeezed. This seems to be a state issue. If you live in a red state and are seeing rates sky rocket ask yourself why? Could it be those red states have tried to do everything they can to dismantle it? Why was Kentucky having so much success with it? Why is it more popular there? The answers are out there.

Aren't those people entitled to run their state as they wish?

(09-11-2017 02:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This is such a mischaracterization of what actually is happening. Guess what guys. Under the old system the people who didn't work had the gold card. The working poor were the ones who were squeezed. This seems to be a state issue. If you live in a red state and are seeing rates sky rocket ask yourself why? Could it be those red states have tried to do everything they can to dismantle it? Why was Kentucky having so much success with it? Why is it more popular there? The answers are out there.

The rates are skyrocketing EVERYWHERE. Some worse than others---but virtually everywhere is paying at least twice what they used to pay. The difference is---are you actually paying for it or not? If you are subsidized---its great, because the subsidy automatically covers any increase. If you pay the real bill---you pay the full cost. Like I said, its a structual problem. That doesnt change whether you are in a red state or a blue state. At some point, you are going to have to acknowledge that Obama was not the Holy Father and cannot override the laws of economics.

(09-11-2017 02:19 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Where did I say you have to make my car payment?

You want me to pay for your healthcare so why not a car payment? You want me to buy your groceries this week as well?

Quote: I was asked what I would do and yes that would solve it. The FUNDAMENTAL issue is that people get sick and need a Dr.

No it will not solve the problem. The primary problem is the fact that people can freeload and not pay into the system until they get sick, thus they will be massive drains on the system. As insurance costs continue to rise, fueled in large part by the bureaucratic overhead that Obamacare created, and now everything else they buy going up to pay your magical sales tax more and more people are going to realize that they come off a whole lot cheaper just paying the tax than they do paying premiums each month. That's going to put even more of a drain on the system

Quote: Yes even those po' folk will get sick. Sorry that I think that they should get treatment and have continued access to a Dr. You are not paying for anybody. You are paying a sales tax and that money can be used to supplement Obamacare.

News flash dude.....the poor already had healthcare. I spent 20 years working some of the poorest areas you can imagine and I can't even begin to tell you how many time we had to tell a patient we ran that we didn't need their medical card because the fire department doesn't bill them.

And you can come up with whatever convoluted explanation you want the fact remains all you want to do is take more of the money I earned out of my pockets and give it to somebody else. What a good little socialist you are comrade!

Quote: You pay a gasoline tax. Do I hear you complaining that you are paying for some po folk to use the highway? Where is it written in the constitution that we should have interstates? Where is it written that we should have NASA? Is that highway free ****? Yes or No? Is the benefits we have gotten from the space program free ****? Where is it written in the constitution we should have a farm bill?

Roads are a governmental responsibility as they are necessary for the routing of mail, national defense, public safety and commerce. I have no problem paying taxes to support highways because we all use and benefit from them. I do not, however, benefit for making sure Cletus in Xenia, OH gets his prostate examined once a year.

As for NASA I'm all for turning the space program over to private entities at this point. We are already reliant on them or foreign nations to actually get us to space now anyway.

I've never approved of farm bills and think they are just ways for politicians to buy favor back home.

Quote:That's the point of government simple one. Things don't have to be spelled out in the constitution to be implemented into laws for the color by number crowd.

LOL You are the perfect example of why we need political diversity n education because it's no wonder our educational system is failing compared to the rest of the 1st world with this train of thought.

Read this slowly, sound out the hard words if you have to:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

If it's not in the Constitution it's not a core function of the federal government. Period. End of story.

(09-11-2017 02:00 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A sales tax to cover it is the fairest way. Add 1% to every financial transaction and the case is solved. No more complaining. The problem is not going away Kaplony. If that isn't crystal clear to you by now you will never get it. They think the Senate had 41 votes and even that wasn't a clear repeal. Far from it. You can half your half baked ideas all you want but in the end I have solutions. You have rhetoric.

And when 1% is not enough? 2%? 10% healthcare costs are not going to go down anytime soon especially if the government is the sugar daddy paying for it.

When the government is paying for something there is zero incentive to control costs... see public schools, public universities, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

And if the government is paying for it the government will have a say in what care they will pay for...and who they will pay it for.