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Stabilizing Obamacare
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #21
Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 07:35 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  I could see Trump coming out for these kind of ideas. His practical side seems to be coming out finally and health care is an issue longing for bipartisan cover instead of a partisan and policially difficult unilateral repeal. The moderate Reps plus Dems plus Rep Governors could easily get enough goodwill and get some of these ideas passed and get the issue of the table so Trump can move onto some of his bigger priorities. And like the debt ceiling compromise he'd get some positive press, which he clearly values. I think Obamacare has some issues, but they are fixable and if you get bipartisan cover and stability, it could find a workable steady state.


zerOcare has more than "issues", and no they are not "fixable". This was designed to fail and any honest look at this monstrosity will reveal that. No way it could ever work without completely wrecking what's left of the dwindling middle class.

Simple economics. Math is hard for the leftists, tho.


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09-09-2017 12:41 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #22
Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 09:44 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  Obamacare has some structural issues to be sure, but it's workable. One of its bigger issues is image since it was pushed through with only Dem votes and since been a political cattle prod used by Reps on their base. So by definition half of the country distrusts it. The exact same thing would happen if the Reps did repeal and replace. And then the Dems would run against replace and we would ping pong back and forth with no stability which really hurts long term strategic planning for insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors. And patients also face coverage uncertainty. A bipartisan bill with ideas like Kasich suggests would slow down or even stop the uncertainty cycle and assuage the industry's anxieties about potential unvetted and rapid changes. The true believers on both sides would be dismayed but everyone else would be glad to move forward.


So it's an "image" problem


Lolololol cmon.

Really?


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09-09-2017 12:46 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 09:44 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  Obamacare has some structural issues to be sure, but it's workable. One of its bigger issues is image since it was pushed through with only Dem votes and since been a political cattle prod used by Reps on their base. So by definition half of the country distrusts it. The exact same thing would happen if the Reps did repeal and replace. And then the Dems would run against replace and we would ping pong back and forth with no stability which really hurts long term strategic planning for insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors. And patients also face coverage uncertainty. A bipartisan bill with ideas like Kasich suggests would slow down or even stop the uncertainty cycle and assuage the industry's anxieties about potential unvetted and rapid changes. The true believers on both sides would be dismayed but everyone else would be glad to move forward.

Lol. Sorry, but that's complete BS. The "instability" excuse is complete crap. As I said before, the rates were skyrocketing even when the Democrats were firmly in control of government. Furthermore--insurance is written on a year to year basis. Even if the Republicans changed the law, any changes to Obamacare wouldn't take affect for at least year or more. So, the insurance companies would have a full year to analyze the changes and reset thier rates. The rate increases are COMPLETELY connected to the CURRENT Obamacare and its universal coverage on demand clause as well as the guaranteed bundle of coverage mandated by the law. The requirements that the sick and well all pay the same rate also plays a role in the increases.

Look, this law would be DEAD DEAD DEAD if everyone had to pay the true cost of today's coverage, however, with the subsidies and Medicare expansion, only the middle class is stuck paying it (the rich pay it as well, but, they are rich--so it doesn't really affect them like it does the middle class).
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2017 01:06 PM by Attackcoog.)
09-09-2017 01:04 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 12:46 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 09:44 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  Obamacare has some structural issues to be sure, but it's workable. One of its bigger issues is image since it was pushed through with only Dem votes and since been a political cattle prod used by Reps on their base. So by definition half of the country distrusts it. The exact same thing would happen if the Reps did repeal and replace. And then the Dems would run against replace and we would ping pong back and forth with no stability which really hurts long term strategic planning for insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors. And patients also face coverage uncertainty. A bipartisan bill with ideas like Kasich suggests would slow down or even stop the uncertainty cycle and assuage the industry's anxieties about potential unvetted and rapid changes. The true believers on both sides would be dismayed but everyone else would be glad to move forward.


So it's an "image" problem


Lolololol cmon.

Really?


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You know what I mean. I'm saying that healthcare is something that needs bipartisan support for political cover. You could say that the Democrats shouldn't have pushed it through without bipartisan support and would be right. However, the past is what it is. The complexity of healthcare is too much for the Reps to go it alone now.

Of course the true believers on both sides will be upset with a bipartisan bill. But in my opinion that's a good thing.
09-09-2017 01:53 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 09:44 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  Obamacare has some structural issues to be sure, but it's workable. One of its bigger issues is image since it was pushed through with only Dem votes and since been a political cattle prod used by Reps on their base. So by definition half of the country distrusts it. The exact same thing would happen if the Reps did repeal and replace. And then the Dems would run against replace and we would ping pong back and forth with no stability which really hurts long term strategic planning for insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors. And patients also face coverage uncertainty. A bipartisan bill with ideas like Kasich suggests would slow down or even stop the uncertainty cycle and assuage the industry's anxieties about potential unvetted and rapid changes. The true believers on both sides would be dismayed but everyone else would be glad to move forward.

This is a political rant... Please tell me why its a financial disaster. Whether or not people trust it, it's the law
09-09-2017 09:50 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.

Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?
09-09-2017 11:26 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
No the insurance rates were not sky rocketing when the D's had full control. Eliminating the insurance corridors practically gauranteed that rates would skyvtocket and that was by design. So then you could use that as an excuse to dismantle it. Problem now is you never expected to be in full control of all three branches and the R's just wanted to make political hay out of it. Fix the insurance corridors with a VAT or national sales tax. Model European systems.
09-10-2017 09:15 AM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.

Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?

I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
09-10-2017 09:34 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 09:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No the insurance rates were not sky rocketing when the D's had full control. Eliminating the insurance corridors practically gauranteed that rates would skyvtocket and that was by design. So then you could use that as an excuse to dismantle it. Problem now is you never expected to be in full control of all three branches and the R's just wanted to make political hay out of it. Fix the insurance corridors with a VAT or national sales tax. Model European systems.

But the insurance corridors were always supposed to have gone away by now. That was one way that the bill maintained the fiction of cost neutrality.
09-10-2017 11:11 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.

Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?

I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.

But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
09-10-2017 11:17 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
So mach, are you saying if we don't continue to provide massive subsidies at their uncontrollable growth rate, the law will collapse? Does that not sound like a terrible law?
09-10-2017 12:08 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.

Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?

I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.

But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.

Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.

Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.

Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.

An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.
09-10-2017 12:50 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.
Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?
I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.
09-10-2017 01:04 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 09:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No the insurance rates were not sky rocketing when the D's had full control.

Because Obama care did not go into full effect until 2014. The 2010 Dems passed a bill which would not even hit it's full effect until two congressional elections would happen.

That's change you can put off onto a future congress.
09-10-2017 01:34 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 01:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.
Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?
I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.

You mean like Social Security? In in the private sector an insurance product designed like Social Security is called a ponzi scheme and you go to jail. Congress has showed absolutely no problems perpertrating fraud on the American public.
09-10-2017 04:02 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 04:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 01:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.

You mean like Social Security? In in the private sector an insurance product designed like Social Security is called a ponzi scheme and you go to jail. Congress has showed absolutely no problems perpertrating fraud on the American public.

Indeed.
09-10-2017 05:49 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.
09-10-2017 06:01 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

link?

Someone said? Do you work for the New York Times or the Washington post? Rates increased after the democrats in full control of every branch of government passed this colostomy bag of a health bill.

Have you seen the rates? It's pretty incredible that you would think that rates haven't increased, but well, no it's not, you're a partisan hack.
09-10-2017 07:00 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

Obamacare was front loaded with the best features and back-loaded with the worst, so it was designed intentionally to produce the result you are asserting. The fact that the worst features began to show more after the first few years was the fault of democrats who wrote the bill, not anyone who came in later.

As for the costs themselves, insurance is nothing more than cost sharing. Instead of one person getting stuck with a bill that ruins him, you get 1000 people to kick in a tenth of a percent each. It was always going to be a zero sum game, at best. That's why CNN could show us all these people that Obamacare had helped, and Fox could show all those that it hurt. What Obamacare did was shift the pricing away from high-risk customers and onto low-risk. The problem is that too many in the low-risk group have figured out that they are getting screwed, so they are not paying the premiums needed to offset the undercharges to the high-risk group. It can't work.
09-10-2017 09:21 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

Wait, Obamacare rates havent been going up since the plan was implemented? Last time I checked Trump has been around for 8 months. All the reinsurance provisions and the subsidies were NEVER in doubt when Obama was president---but still the Obamcare rates were skyrocketing (along with all the private insurance rates that had to comply with Obamacare).......so, no,...that would NOT be a LIE. That would be a FACT...I know facts confuse you. So, let me explain.

A LIE would be something like saying "you can keep your doctor" or saying "EVERY family will save $2,500" when the reality is you cant keep your doctor and your premiums doubled or tripled. See the difference?
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2017 12:04 AM by Attackcoog.)
09-11-2017 12:02 AM
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