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Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 08:55 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

Wouldn't a better compromise be allowing instant transfers to student-athletes of programs whose coach leaves? Or if a program is put on probation for past sins, allowing those players a one-time exception to transfer freely?

Or what about providing guaranteed four-year scholarships (only a few programs, to my knowledge provide this)? That would make it acceptable to sitting out a year, if one decides to transfer, no?

I just think there are better compromises than allowing unlimited transfer capabilities. Ever offseason would be free agency and cause more uncertainty (for players and programs than ever before).

I understand the argument, but I think the NCAA seems to have determined (in a rare moment of wisdom for that organization) that the exceptions are so difficult to list and examine that they're better off simply allowing a broad transfer right. For instance, is a coach leaving on his own for another program going to be treated the same as a school firing that coach? How bad of a probation does it need to be to allow for a transfer?

Plus, the NCAA and colleges already know that they're in a VERY tenuous legal situation with respect to player compensation. This is going to drive all of the NCAA decisions regarding student-athletes going forward. One of the key factors of determining a legal employer-employee relationship (regardless of what a contract might state on paper) is whether there are restrictions on moving elsewhere, so the NCAA is mitigating its potential liability on that front. Giving a chit to the players in the form of transferability freedom is a small price to pay to keep the open walking antitrust violation of the NCAA alive a little longer.
09-06-2017 09:58 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 09:04 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

They're amateurs...

Hah! You and I know that's not true (albeit we seem to come on different sides of how that should be handled).
09-06-2017 09:59 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
Have to decide whether we want to keep pretending these athletes are just like every other college student, or whether they should be compensated at whatever rate the market will pay.

If they are paid, then you can keep them from playing for a competitor until the end of a contract, just like ABC can keep Jimmy Kimmel from starting a new show at another network until his contract ends.

If the athletes are just college students playing a sport for free, then they can transfer to another school and participate right away, just like any other college student.
09-06-2017 10:15 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

"Normal" students that can freely transfer to any school pay thier own way. They don't get all thier expenses paid. 04-cheers
09-06-2017 10:15 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 09:01 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I always thought the rule that does not allow players to transfer and start is absolute BS. I mean look at the running backs on the USC roster.

Ronald Jones II - 4 star (2015) #1 (Starter)
Aca'Cedric Ware - 4 star (2015)
Dominic Davis - 4 star (2015)
Vavae Malepeai - 4 star (2016) #3 (Backup)
Stephen Carr - 4 star (2017) #2 (Starter)

Davis and Ware are both true 4 star Juniors who have a good amount of playing time over their three years playing. I think it's unfair that guys like these don't have the option to look somewhere else their senior year. They could be starting at a lot of schools but they are sitting on the bench and getting trash time carries.

They can transfer---and often do, there is a penalty, but it doesn't affect thier education---just thier playing time.
09-06-2017 10:17 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:15 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

"Normal" students that can freely transfer to any school pay thier own way. They don't get all thier expenses paid. 04-cheers

Non-athletes who are receiving scholarships are already free to transfer with no restrictions on what they do at their new school.

Let's say we have a talented violinist attending Cal on a scholarship given to excellent musicians. He plays in university orchestras, string quartets, whatever ensembles the university wants him to perform in. Then let's say he decides he wants to transfer. Maybe he has a girlfriend at UCLA, maybe he's from Florida and he's homesick, or maybe a school in Boston offers him better musical opportunities. Any reason or no reason. Can he transfer and perform right away at his new school with no restrictions? Of course he can.
09-06-2017 10:24 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:15 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Have to decide whether we want to keep pretending these athletes are just like every other college student, or whether they should be compensated at whatever rate the market will pay.

If they are paid, then you can keep them from playing for a competitor until the end of a contract, just like ABC can keep Jimmy Kimmel from starting a new show at another network until his contract ends.

If the athletes are just college students playing a sport for free, then they can transfer to another school and participate right away, just like any other college student.

Maybe the answer is the scholarship itself. Allow 2 types of scholarships. One year or 4-year. Four year scholarships are guaranteed and the player is there unless dismissed for cause, but current transfer rules apply. One year scholarships get the easy transfer rule but the scholarship is a one year renewable. If your performance doesn't pan out, your scholarship may not be renewed. There would be no 25 player per year limit, but the 85 player limit total team cap would remain. Essentially, when you sign out of college you can decide whether you want to keep your options open or if you want to lock in an education. Schools can control thier future by only offering 4 year scholarships if they don't want to deal with widespread transfer issues.

This is pretty serious as it literally means the end of G5 football as we know it. It will no longer be competitive on the field vs the P5. At that point, a new division will occur since it will essentially be the new FCS. If that's a rule passes, then that's the time you will see an anti-trust suit against the CFP and autonomous schools as there will be little to lose for the G5. The only way to stay competitive would be for the G5 to have reasonably viable access to the playoff (which doesn't exist for them right now).
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2017 10:51 AM by Attackcoog.)
09-06-2017 10:26 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 09:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 09:04 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

They're amateurs...

Hah! You and I know that's not true (albeit we seem to come on different sides of how that should be handled).

That is why the NFL - warts and all - is a cleaner and more honest sport than college football.
09-06-2017 10:52 AM
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TrojanCampaign Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:15 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

"Normal" students that can freely transfer to any school pay thier own way. They don't get all thier expenses paid. 04-cheers

An athletic scholarship is no different than an academic scholarship. They are both merit based and dependent on something the student has worked very hard to achieve. No one is writing an athlete a check and saying here is your college have it it! $$$

FYI student-athletes who are not on scholarship still must follow the same rules.
09-06-2017 11:09 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:26 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is pretty serious as it literally means the end of G5 football as we know it.

No, the sky is not falling. Each transfer to or from a big-name program will be breathlessly hyped by the media ("Wow! LSU replaced last year's star linebacker with a guy who looked really good at Memphis last year!" or "Can this former USC 5-star QB lead Hawai'i to the Mountain West title?"), but the number of transfers that actually damage a program won't be nearly as great as you think.

People thought one-and-done would be the end of college basketball. It wasn't. Players can leave for the NBA after a year, and the sport still goes on, still sells tickets, still rakes in booster donations and TV money. And if players can leave a football team after a year for a different college football team, or if the NFL ever allows college players to enter the draft after one year, that won't be the end of the world either.
09-06-2017 11:14 AM
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Post: #31
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 09:01 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I always thought the rule that does not allow players to transfer and start is absolute BS. I mean look at the running backs on the USC roster.

Ronald Jones II - 4 star (2015) #1 (Starter)
Aca'Cedric Ware - 4 star (2015)
Dominic Davis - 4 star (2015)
Vavae Malepeai - 4 star (2016) #3 (Backup)
Stephen Carr - 4 star (2017) #2 (Starter)

Davis and Ware are both true 4 star Juniors who have a good amount of playing time over their three years playing. I think it's unfair that guys like these don't have the option to look somewhere else their senior year. They could be starting at a lot of schools but they are sitting on the bench and getting trash time carries.

They can transfer---and often do, there is a penalty, but it doesn't affect thier education---just thier playing time.

He is a social sciences major at one of the best schools in the country right now. He could theoretically transfer to somewhere like say Liberty University his senior year. Take financial aid, be the starting RB, graduate college, and have a shot at the NFL. But he would not be allowed to do that because the NCAA's bogus rules that remove the students choice of what to do with their life.

What the NCAA is doing right now is costing these kids their dream & potential career.
09-06-2017 11:24 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 10:24 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 10:15 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

"Normal" students that can freely transfer to any school pay thier own way. They don't get all thier expenses paid. 04-cheers

Non-athletes who are receiving scholarships are already free to transfer with no restrictions on what they do at their new school.

Let's say we have a talented violinist attending Cal on a scholarship given to excellent musicians. He plays in university orchestras, string quartets, whatever ensembles the university wants him to perform in. Then let's say he decides he wants to transfer. Maybe he has a girlfriend at UCLA, maybe he's from Florida and he's homesick, or maybe a school in Boston offers him better musical opportunities. Any reason or no reason. Can he transfer and perform right away at his new school with no restrictions? Of course he can.

That depends on the type of scholarship. If it is a national scholarship then that academic schollie can go to other schools. But if it is a scholarship direct from the school, then that is a different story, they can have restrictions on students transferring to another school. Cal isn't going to pay for a transfer that decides Stanford is the better college for him or her.
09-06-2017 11:39 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 11:14 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 10:26 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is pretty serious as it literally means the end of G5 football as we know it.

No, the sky is not falling. Each transfer to or from a big-name program will be breathlessly hyped by the media ("Wow! LSU replaced last year's star linebacker with a guy who looked really good at Memphis last year!" or "Can this former USC 5-star QB lead Hawai'i to the Mountain West title?"), but the number of transfers that actually damage a program won't be nearly as great as you think.

People thought one-and-done would be the end of college basketball. It wasn't. Players can leave for the NBA after a year, and the sport still goes on, still sells tickets, still rakes in booster donations and TV money. And if players can leave a football team after a year for a different college football team, or if the NFL ever allows college players to enter the draft after one year, that won't be the end of the world either.

Its a little different for football where the G5 already are working with the disadvantage of having no real access to the playoff. Star players at the G5 level will be one and dones--opting for a chance at stardom on a P5 squad with real playoff access. The star G5 players will migrate to the P5 (just as the 5-star high schools players do now). Good luck for any G5 hanging on to a star QB. In a few years, the G5 will be no more competitive vs the P5 than FCS as P5 coaches will essentially get mulligans on kids they overlooked in high school. That said, I think the mid-level and lower-level P5 schools would likely see their stars leave for the Bama's and Ohio State's of the world. So, they might be as opposed to such a system as the G5 schools.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2017 11:57 AM by Attackcoog.)
09-06-2017 11:52 AM
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TrojanCampaign Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 11:14 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 10:26 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is pretty serious as it literally means the end of G5 football as we know it.

No, the sky is not falling. Each transfer to or from a big-name program will be breathlessly hyped by the media ("Wow! LSU replaced last year's star linebacker with a guy who looked really good at Memphis last year!" or "Can this former USC 5-star QB lead Hawai'i to the Mountain West title?"), but the number of transfers that actually damage a program won't be nearly as great as you think.

People thought one-and-done would be the end of college basketball. It wasn't. Players can leave for the NBA after a year, and the sport still goes on, still sells tickets, still rakes in booster donations and TV money. And if players can leave a football team after a year for a different college football team, or if the NFL ever allows college players to enter the draft after one year, that won't be the end of the world either.

^^ This so much.

It will be a good thing for the G5 and that's why there has been so much resistance to it. The situations where exceptionally great G5 players go to P5 schools will be very rare. You could see instances like that projected first round Wyoming QB transferring to Florida who was having a QB problems.

Players who take advantage of this will be the guys who starter quality but are not getting starting time. Like the USC example I used above, all of our running backs are 4 star recruits or above. Only three of them should get carries. But four of them are getting carries just because they are on the team. And the fifth is just literally not getting any carries.

Why is he not allowed to go play somewhere else if he wants to?
09-06-2017 11:53 AM
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RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 08:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Good. With the existing restraints on trade with players receiving no compensation and having to sign a non-negotiable LOI without the assistance of an agent, the least that the NCAA can do is to allow them the freedom of movement that other "normal" students have (much less the coaches that can leave for greener pastures whenever they want). A lot of these threads end up focusing on the impact on programs, but the students are the ones that had little to no negotiating power. The parameters seem reasonable with the GPA requirement and the 1-year sitout rule still applying to someone transferring a second time (to clamp down on the potential "serial" transfers). College sports are full of hypocrisies, but students being restricted to transfer while the coaches that recruited them could move freely for better jobs has always been one of the most glaring examples of college sports hypocrisy of them all.

The athletes are compensated. They are compensated with free tuition, room and board, books, utilities, and now additional monies for the " full cost of attendance".

At Pitt, for an out of state student that is worth 200-250K depending on whether they stay 4 or 5 years.

The reason the players do not get more is Title 9. the purest form of Socialism in America. The producers in the revenue sports are paying for the rest of the athletes competing in non-revenue sports. That is the law of the land.
09-06-2017 11:58 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 11:53 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  It will be a good thing for the G5 and that's why there has been so much resistance to it. The situations where exceptionally great G5 players go to P5 schools will be very rare. You could see instances like that projected first round Wyoming QB transferring to Florida who was having a QB problems.

IMO, this is an example of a potential transfer that WON'T happen as often as people might think. Josh Allen, the Wyoming QB, is already being told he will be one of the first players chosen in next year's NFL draft. Is his ambition to be the starting QB at Florida? Hell no. His ambition is to be a starting QB in the NFL. He is already in a situation where that opportunity is in front of him. Switching to Florida probably can't help his NFL standing and could only hurt it.

(09-06-2017 11:53 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  Players who take advantage of this will be the guys who starter quality but are not getting starting time. Like the USC example I used above, all of our running backs are 4 star recruits or above. Only three of them should get carries. But four of them are getting carries just because they are on the team. And the fifth is just literally not getting any carries.

Why is he not allowed to go play somewhere else if he wants to?

Exactly. A player who is not getting playing time should be able to go elsewhere and get that playing time without having to sit out a year, because, among other things, there will be more transfer opportunities available to him if his new school can put him on the field right away. A college athlete shouldn't be shackled to the decision he made as a high school senior just because the coaches at USC (or Alabama, or Ohio State, or wherever) want to have a massive amount of depth "just in case" something happens to the starters.
09-06-2017 12:07 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
(09-06-2017 11:53 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 11:14 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 10:26 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is pretty serious as it literally means the end of G5 football as we know it.

No, the sky is not falling. Each transfer to or from a big-name program will be breathlessly hyped by the media ("Wow! LSU replaced last year's star linebacker with a guy who looked really good at Memphis last year!" or "Can this former USC 5-star QB lead Hawai'i to the Mountain West title?"), but the number of transfers that actually damage a program won't be nearly as great as you think.

People thought one-and-done would be the end of college basketball. It wasn't. Players can leave for the NBA after a year, and the sport still goes on, still sells tickets, still rakes in booster donations and TV money. And if players can leave a football team after a year for a different college football team, or if the NFL ever allows college players to enter the draft after one year, that won't be the end of the world either.

^^ This so much.

It will be a good thing for the G5 and that's why there has been so much resistance to it. The situations where exceptionally great G5 players go to P5 schools will be very rare. You could see instances like that projected first round Wyoming QB transferring to Florida who was having a QB problems.

Players who take advantage of this will be the guys who starter quality but are not getting starting time. Like the USC example I used above, all of our running backs are 4 star recruits or above. Only three of them should get carries. But four of them are getting carries just because they are on the team. And the fifth is just literally not getting any carries.

Why is he not allowed to go play somewhere else if he wants to?

Agreed. This is a great balancing move and will be good for the G5. Right now, the biggest abuses are P5 schools who don't want to let go someone who is not getting much playing time. G5 schools will benefit. There aren't many who will move from a school where they are doing great to an uncertain future just because it is a P5 school unless there are personal reasons.

And the rules really should be to treat the student-athletes much as other students would be. That means they get to move whenever they want.
09-06-2017 02:23 PM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
This will hurt FCS schools who rely on transfers more than anybody.
09-06-2017 02:40 PM
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RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
I don't think it can be used as a farm system in every sense, though. I know when PJ left WMU, by rule, he couldn't talk to anyone on the team. You had to Leave first. Of course, that's just the HC.

In the end though, it will only hurt the G5s. But I think they Key will be -- a star non-QB player on a 5-7 G5 team getting no press, going to a 6-6/7-5 P5 team that will.

However, another thought is G5->G5. Say you have a G5 team with two good QBs. One QB eeks out the starting role and does reasonably well, but the other feels like he's not going to get another chance while in Spring Ball. F'it. I'm going to the rival college in the same conference, to start against you this upcoming year. It's more a motivator.
09-06-2017 02:44 PM
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Crump1 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Potentially The End Of G5 Football As We Know It
No. I love the constant overreactions of doom every time something changes. As a fan of a G5, we get a lot of transfers from "P5" schools who either sit a year or go JC for a year. There are not enough starting roster spots to keep everyone happy at a "P5" school and making it easier to transfer will open the gates in that direction as well. The only people hurt by this are the fans who enjoy seeing a large pat of each recruiting class play together for 4 years or so.
09-06-2017 02:48 PM
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