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Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
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umbluegray Online
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Post: #41
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 12:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
Quote:Technically, state schools are public schools. They receive tax-payer funding.

Technically true but unlike public school, you have a choice of which college you want to attend and which classes you want to take. Not the case in High School.

Not necessarily true. In Tennessee you attend the school for your district by default. However, we have something called "optional schools" which allow students from other districts.

Further, there are actually 7 school systems in Shelby County:
1. Shelby County Schools
2. Arlington Schools
3. Bartlett Schools
4. Collierville Schools
5. Germantown Schools
6. Lakeland Schools
7. Millington Schools

Students inside Memphis city limits attend Shelby County Schools.

Districts 2-7 cover students in each of those municipalities.

Any student in an unincorporated area attends Shelby County Schools.


However, you do not HAVE to attend the school system covered by your district.
Certain specific schools are designated as Optional Schools. You can attend an optional school depending upon certain criteria.

Also, you can attend a school in any other district by paying $150 to that school systems.

Further, if you live outside Shelby County (like we do) you can attend any school in the various districts for a fee.

So, in certain areas of the country you do have the choice of which school your children attend.


The differentiation you make between high school and college, I think, does not change the fact that they are supported by tax dollars.

Can colleges willfully disregard discrimination laws because students choose to attend a specific school and specific classes?




Quote:As I stated, I've been preparing her for what she will face. And I'm incredibly proud of how she's faced her first challenge.

What exactly have you been preparing her to face? Partying and drugs? Questioning religion or God? Having to read the Koran? What exactly are you talking about?

Assaults on her belief system. I'm not talking about rational discussion of varying views, but malicious assaults.

People often have differing views and opinions, but not all people approach these differences rationally.


Quote:But let me ask you this: if college is about challenging the student's beliefs, should they challenge every belief? By challenging only conservative beliefs aren't they failing those students by not challenging their liberal beliefs?

Conservative beliefs are predominately taught at home because they are the most mundane. Family values, moral stories are taught to every child at home. Therefore, it's not until a high education comes into the picture that a young adult is ready to be challenged and think differently about the world they grew up in. I

I can't accept your explanation at face value. Liberal beliefs are taught at home as well. I suspect that liberal parents teach their children conservative values at home.

Of course, we see high-profile examples of my assertion when the media shares instances of parents allowing their 6 year old son to live life as if he were a girl.



I also disagree for a different reason. Our Founders thought religion and morality were to go hand-in-hand with education in order to maintain good government.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

This phrase was repeated by Founders, fed and state founding documents and others.

I happen to agree with them.

And I think we see evidence confirming their thoughts given what we're seeing today.



Quote:The rationalization for a liberal mindset in the university system is to challenge beliefs. But in practice they tend to challenge beliefs opposed to their own.

That is a generalization but not entirely untrue. What college tried to do is make student think about how the world has been and challenge them to see the world how it can be. Whereas conservative value systems by definition see the world as it used to be and long to go back to those times. Liberal beliefs by definition frees the human to look to the future and how it can be made better.


Quote:I reject the claim that college is intended to challenge beliefs. The rationale should be restated accurately.

You can reject it if you want to. As I said before, if you don't want your daughter to change, don't send her to college.

I think you are doing her a disservice however if you"preparing " her to be close minded to whatever is being taught there.

Why would I not want her to change? Who even implied that?

But change for change's sake is not necessarily good.

There is change that results in growth and conversely change that results in digression.

I believe you're generalizing closed-minded.

I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you're closed-minded when it comes to torturing other people.

We see examples in the news where members of ISIS torture, brutalize and even kill people.

If you were sitting in a college classroom and the professor discussed rationale behind that behavior in an attempt to justify it, would you be open minded? I sincerely doubt it.

There are times to be open-minded and then there are times not to be.

BTW, our nation is based on rule of law. Should I be open-minded about alternative possibilities? Personally, I don't think so. I think that abandoning the rule of law fundamentally changes what this nation is.

I understand there are many across the country who are involved in efforts to alter that. And I understand that line of thought is promoted in some state universities.

I do not, nor will I ever be open to abandoning our core founding principles. I hope to impress upon my daughter that she should not be open to that, either. But that will be her decision.
09-07-2017 02:36 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 04:27 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 03:29 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Well if it isn't then that is one stupid school district because they would be in violation of a federal ruling.

What federal ruling is that?

Did you ever get an answer to this?

I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others. This standard, also known as the "material and substantial disruption test," has basically remained the standard in which the school's right to prescribe free speech is examined at the secondary rank as well as at public colleges and universities.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rig...hools.html
09-07-2017 02:39 PM
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UTSAMarineVet09 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 04:27 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  What federal ruling is that?

Did you ever get an answer to this?

I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others. This standard, also known as the "material and substantial disruption test," has basically remained the standard in which the school's right to prescribe free speech is examined at the secondary rank as well as at public colleges and universities.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rig...hools.html

and according to the school district and referring to this ruling, the student's shirt was not disruptive to the classroom environment, case closed. 07-coffee3
09-07-2017 03:22 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 02:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
Quote:Technically, state schools are public schools. They receive tax-payer funding.

Technically true but unlike public school, you have a choice of which college you want to attend and which classes you want to take. Not the case in High School.

Not necessarily true. In Tennessee you attend the school for your district by default. However, we have something called "optional schools" which allow students from other districts.

Further, there are actually 7 school systems in Shelby County:
1. Shelby County Schools
2. Arlington Schools
3. Bartlett Schools
4. Collierville Schools
5. Germantown Schools
6. Lakeland Schools
7. Millington Schools

Students inside Memphis city limits attend Shelby County Schools.

Districts 2-7 cover students in each of those municipalities.

Any student in an unincorporated area attends Shelby County Schools.


However, you do not HAVE to attend the school system covered by your district.
Certain specific schools are designated as Optional Schools. You can attend an optional school depending upon certain criteria.

Also, you can attend a school in any other district by paying $150 to that school systems.

Further, if you live outside Shelby County (like we do) you can attend any school in the various districts for a fee.

So, in certain areas of the country you do have the choice of which school your children attend.


The differentiation you make between high school and college, I think, does not change the fact that they are supported by tax dollars.

Can colleges willfully disregard discrimination laws because students choose to attend a specific school and specific classes?




Quote:As I stated, I've been preparing her for what she will face. And I'm incredibly proud of how she's faced her first challenge.

What exactly have you been preparing her to face? Partying and drugs? Questioning religion or God? Having to read the Koran? What exactly are you talking about?

Assaults on her belief system. I'm not talking about rational discussion of varying views, but malicious assaults.

People often have differing views and opinions, but not all people approach these differences rationally.


Quote:But let me ask you this: if college is about challenging the student's beliefs, should they challenge every belief? By challenging only conservative beliefs aren't they failing those students by not challenging their liberal beliefs?

Conservative beliefs are predominately taught at home because they are the most mundane. Family values, moral stories are taught to every child at home. Therefore, it's not until a high education comes into the picture that a young adult is ready to be challenged and think differently about the world they grew up in. I

I can't accept your explanation at face value. Liberal beliefs are taught at home as well. I suspect that liberal parents teach their children conservative values at home.

Of course, we see high-profile examples of my assertion when the media shares instances of parents allowing their 6 year old son to live life as if he were a girl.



I also disagree for a different reason. Our Founders thought religion and morality were to go hand-in-hand with education in order to maintain good government.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

This phrase was repeated by Founders, fed and state founding documents and others.

I happen to agree with them.

And I think we see evidence confirming their thoughts given what we're seeing today.



Quote:The rationalization for a liberal mindset in the university system is to challenge beliefs. But in practice they tend to challenge beliefs opposed to their own.

That is a generalization but not entirely untrue. What college tried to do is make student think about how the world has been and challenge them to see the world how it can be. Whereas conservative value systems by definition see the world as it used to be and long to go back to those times. Liberal beliefs by definition frees the human to look to the future and how it can be made better.


Quote:I reject the claim that college is intended to challenge beliefs. The rationale should be restated accurately.

You can reject it if you want to. As I said before, if you don't want your daughter to change, don't send her to college.

I think you are doing her a disservice however if you"preparing " her to be close minded to whatever is being taught there.

Why would I not want her to change? Who even implied that?

But change for change's sake is not necessarily good.

There is change that results in growth and conversely change that results in digression.

I believe you're generalizing closed-minded.

I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you're closed-minded when it comes to torturing other people.

We see examples in the news where members of ISIS torture, brutalize and even kill people.

If you were sitting in a college classroom and the professor discussed rationale behind that behavior in an attempt to justify it, would you be open minded? I sincerely doubt it.

There are times to be open-minded and then there are times not to be.

BTW, our nation is based on rule of law. Should I be open-minded about alternative possibilities? Personally, I don't think so. I think that abandoning the rule of law fundamentally changes what this nation is.

I understand there are many across the country who are involved in efforts to alter that. And I understand that line of thought is promoted in some state universities.

I do not, nor will I ever be open to abandoning our core founding principles. I hope to impress upon my daughter that she should not be open to that, either. But that will be her decision.


I don't disagree with everything you said except for the part where you say liberals teach their children at age 6 to become girls.


What you said here in a nut shell however is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Conservatives believe that our country was once great and the only way to get that back is to go back to the traditions of the past and what our founding fathers believed.

Liberals however believe the opposite. That our country can still become better and the only way do that is to move our country forward through progress.

I too have daughters and while I don't disagree with what you want for your daughter, I prefer to prepare my daughters for the world they live in today rather than the world our mother and father grew up in.

Perspective is everything. It depends on how you grew up. As I have said on this forum. We grew up learning that if you saw the cops you had to run and hide. Not really glory years.
09-07-2017 03:35 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:22 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Did you ever get an answer to this?

I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others. This standard, also known as the "material and substantial disruption test," has basically remained the standard in which the school's right to prescribe free speech is examined at the secondary rank as well as at public colleges and universities.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rig...hools.html

and according to the school district and referring to this ruling, the student's shirt was not disruptive to the classroom environment, case closed. 07-coffee3

And nothing in the court ruling says what was insinuated earlier in the thread. It says a school district MAY limit some speech but that they SHALL limit it.

As was shown in the statement I posted earlier the teacher was in the wrong here per the school district so the rest of the noise in defense of the teacher in this case is meaningless.
09-07-2017 03:36 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:22 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others. This standard, also known as the "material and substantial disruption test," has basically remained the standard in which the school's right to prescribe free speech is examined at the secondary rank as well as at public colleges and universities.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rig...hools.html

and according to the school district and referring to this ruling, the student's shirt was not disruptive to the classroom environment, case closed. 07-coffee3

And nothing in the court ruling says what was insinuated earlier in the thread. It says a school district MAY limit some speech but that they SHALL limit it.

As was shown in the statement I posted earlier the teacher was in the wrong here per the school district so the rest of the noise in defense of the teacher in this case is meaningless.

My initial post on this specific case was that the teacher handled it poorly.

Had she don't it differently, I think she could have had the students remove the shirts without disruption.
09-07-2017 03:38 PM
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umbluegray Online
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Post: #47
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:22 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Did you ever get an answer to this?

I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others. This standard, also known as the "material and substantial disruption test," has basically remained the standard in which the school's right to prescribe free speech is examined at the secondary rank as well as at public colleges and universities.

http://education.findlaw.com/student-rig...hools.html

and according to the school district and referring to this ruling, the student's shirt was not disruptive to the classroom environment, case closed. 07-coffee3

It actually seems like the teacher was disruptive.

I do think the "material and substantial disruption test" is fairly subjective.


A MAGA shirt in a Georgia classroom would undoubtedly garner a different respone than it would in a California classroom.
09-07-2017 03:39 PM
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umbluegray Online
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Post: #48
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:35 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
Quote:Technically, state schools are public schools. They receive tax-payer funding.

Technically true but unlike public school, you have a choice of which college you want to attend and which classes you want to take. Not the case in High School.

Not necessarily true. In Tennessee you attend the school for your district by default. However, we have something called "optional schools" which allow students from other districts.

Further, there are actually 7 school systems in Shelby County:
1. Shelby County Schools
2. Arlington Schools
3. Bartlett Schools
4. Collierville Schools
5. Germantown Schools
6. Lakeland Schools
7. Millington Schools

Students inside Memphis city limits attend Shelby County Schools.

Districts 2-7 cover students in each of those municipalities.

Any student in an unincorporated area attends Shelby County Schools.


However, you do not HAVE to attend the school system covered by your district.
Certain specific schools are designated as Optional Schools. You can attend an optional school depending upon certain criteria.

Also, you can attend a school in any other district by paying $150 to that school systems.

Further, if you live outside Shelby County (like we do) you can attend any school in the various districts for a fee.

So, in certain areas of the country you do have the choice of which school your children attend.


The differentiation you make between high school and college, I think, does not change the fact that they are supported by tax dollars.

Can colleges willfully disregard discrimination laws because students choose to attend a specific school and specific classes?




Quote:As I stated, I've been preparing her for what she will face. And I'm incredibly proud of how she's faced her first challenge.

What exactly have you been preparing her to face? Partying and drugs? Questioning religion or God? Having to read the Koran? What exactly are you talking about?

Assaults on her belief system. I'm not talking about rational discussion of varying views, but malicious assaults.

People often have differing views and opinions, but not all people approach these differences rationally.


Quote:But let me ask you this: if college is about challenging the student's beliefs, should they challenge every belief? By challenging only conservative beliefs aren't they failing those students by not challenging their liberal beliefs?

Conservative beliefs are predominately taught at home because they are the most mundane. Family values, moral stories are taught to every child at home. Therefore, it's not until a high education comes into the picture that a young adult is ready to be challenged and think differently about the world they grew up in. I

I can't accept your explanation at face value. Liberal beliefs are taught at home as well. I suspect that liberal parents teach their children conservative values at home.

Of course, we see high-profile examples of my assertion when the media shares instances of parents allowing their 6 year old son to live life as if he were a girl.



I also disagree for a different reason. Our Founders thought religion and morality were to go hand-in-hand with education in order to maintain good government.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

This phrase was repeated by Founders, fed and state founding documents and others.

I happen to agree with them.

And I think we see evidence confirming their thoughts given what we're seeing today.



Quote:The rationalization for a liberal mindset in the university system is to challenge beliefs. But in practice they tend to challenge beliefs opposed to their own.

That is a generalization but not entirely untrue. What college tried to do is make student think about how the world has been and challenge them to see the world how it can be. Whereas conservative value systems by definition see the world as it used to be and long to go back to those times. Liberal beliefs by definition frees the human to look to the future and how it can be made better.


Quote:I reject the claim that college is intended to challenge beliefs. The rationale should be restated accurately.

You can reject it if you want to. As I said before, if you don't want your daughter to change, don't send her to college.

I think you are doing her a disservice however if you"preparing " her to be close minded to whatever is being taught there.

Why would I not want her to change? Who even implied that?

But change for change's sake is not necessarily good.

There is change that results in growth and conversely change that results in digression.

I believe you're generalizing closed-minded.

I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you're closed-minded when it comes to torturing other people.

We see examples in the news where members of ISIS torture, brutalize and even kill people.

If you were sitting in a college classroom and the professor discussed rationale behind that behavior in an attempt to justify it, would you be open minded? I sincerely doubt it.

There are times to be open-minded and then there are times not to be.

BTW, our nation is based on rule of law. Should I be open-minded about alternative possibilities? Personally, I don't think so. I think that abandoning the rule of law fundamentally changes what this nation is.

I understand there are many across the country who are involved in efforts to alter that. And I understand that line of thought is promoted in some state universities.

I do not, nor will I ever be open to abandoning our core founding principles. I hope to impress upon my daughter that she should not be open to that, either. But that will be her decision.


I don't disagree with everything you said except for the part where you say liberals teach their children at age 6 to become girls.


What you said here in a nut shell however is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Conservatives believe that our country was once great and the only way to get that back is to go back to the traditions of the past and what our founding fathers believed.

Liberals however believe the opposite. That our country can still become better and the only way do that is to move our country forward through progress.

I too have daughters and while I don't disagree with what you want for your daughter, I prefer to prepare my daughters for the world they live in today rather than the world our mother and father grew up in.

Perspective is everything. It depends on how you grew up. As I have said on this forum. We grew up learning that if you saw the cops you had to run and hide. Not really glory years.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply ALL liberals.


By the way, I grew up learning that when we were out egging cars or rolling houses that we should run when we saw cops, too.


Ahhh, those were the days.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2017 03:44 PM by umbluegray.)
09-07-2017 03:42 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:42 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:35 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
Quote:Technically, state schools are public schools. They receive tax-payer funding.

Technically true but unlike public school, you have a choice of which college you want to attend and which classes you want to take. Not the case in High School.

Not necessarily true. In Tennessee you attend the school for your district by default. However, we have something called "optional schools" which allow students from other districts.

Further, there are actually 7 school systems in Shelby County:
1. Shelby County Schools
2. Arlington Schools
3. Bartlett Schools
4. Collierville Schools
5. Germantown Schools
6. Lakeland Schools
7. Millington Schools

Students inside Memphis city limits attend Shelby County Schools.

Districts 2-7 cover students in each of those municipalities.

Any student in an unincorporated area attends Shelby County Schools.


However, you do not HAVE to attend the school system covered by your district.
Certain specific schools are designated as Optional Schools. You can attend an optional school depending upon certain criteria.

Also, you can attend a school in any other district by paying $150 to that school systems.

Further, if you live outside Shelby County (like we do) you can attend any school in the various districts for a fee.

So, in certain areas of the country you do have the choice of which school your children attend.


The differentiation you make between high school and college, I think, does not change the fact that they are supported by tax dollars.

Can colleges willfully disregard discrimination laws because students choose to attend a specific school and specific classes?




Quote:As I stated, I've been preparing her for what she will face. And I'm incredibly proud of how she's faced her first challenge.

What exactly have you been preparing her to face? Partying and drugs? Questioning religion or God? Having to read the Koran? What exactly are you talking about?

Assaults on her belief system. I'm not talking about rational discussion of varying views, but malicious assaults.

People often have differing views and opinions, but not all people approach these differences rationally.


Quote:But let me ask you this: if college is about challenging the student's beliefs, should they challenge every belief? By challenging only conservative beliefs aren't they failing those students by not challenging their liberal beliefs?

Conservative beliefs are predominately taught at home because they are the most mundane. Family values, moral stories are taught to every child at home. Therefore, it's not until a high education comes into the picture that a young adult is ready to be challenged and think differently about the world they grew up in. I

I can't accept your explanation at face value. Liberal beliefs are taught at home as well. I suspect that liberal parents teach their children conservative values at home.

Of course, we see high-profile examples of my assertion when the media shares instances of parents allowing their 6 year old son to live life as if he were a girl.



I also disagree for a different reason. Our Founders thought religion and morality were to go hand-in-hand with education in order to maintain good government.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

This phrase was repeated by Founders, fed and state founding documents and others.

I happen to agree with them.

And I think we see evidence confirming their thoughts given what we're seeing today.



Quote:The rationalization for a liberal mindset in the university system is to challenge beliefs. But in practice they tend to challenge beliefs opposed to their own.

That is a generalization but not entirely untrue. What college tried to do is make student think about how the world has been and challenge them to see the world how it can be. Whereas conservative value systems by definition see the world as it used to be and long to go back to those times. Liberal beliefs by definition frees the human to look to the future and how it can be made better.


Quote:I reject the claim that college is intended to challenge beliefs. The rationale should be restated accurately.

You can reject it if you want to. As I said before, if you don't want your daughter to change, don't send her to college.

I think you are doing her a disservice however if you"preparing " her to be close minded to whatever is being taught there.

Why would I not want her to change? Who even implied that?

But change for change's sake is not necessarily good.

There is change that results in growth and conversely change that results in digression.

I believe you're generalizing closed-minded.

I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you're closed-minded when it comes to torturing other people.

We see examples in the news where members of ISIS torture, brutalize and even kill people.

If you were sitting in a college classroom and the professor discussed rationale behind that behavior in an attempt to justify it, would you be open minded? I sincerely doubt it.

There are times to be open-minded and then there are times not to be.

BTW, our nation is based on rule of law. Should I be open-minded about alternative possibilities? Personally, I don't think so. I think that abandoning the rule of law fundamentally changes what this nation is.

I understand there are many across the country who are involved in efforts to alter that. And I understand that line of thought is promoted in some state universities.

I do not, nor will I ever be open to abandoning our core founding principles. I hope to impress upon my daughter that she should not be open to that, either. But that will be her decision.


I don't disagree with everything you said except for the part where you say liberals teach their children at age 6 to become girls.


What you said here in a nut shell however is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Conservatives believe that our country was once great and the only way to get that back is to go back to the traditions of the past and what our founding fathers believed.

Liberals however believe the opposite. That our country can still become better and the only way do that is to move our country forward through progress.

I too have daughters and while I don't disagree with what you want for your daughter, I prefer to prepare my daughters for the world they live in today rather than the world our mother and father grew up in.

Perspective is everything. It depends on how you grew up. As I have said on this forum. We grew up learning that if you saw the cops you had to run and hide. Not really glory years.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply ALL liberals.


By the way, I grew up learning that when we were out egging cars or rolling houses that we should run when we saw cops, too.


Ahhh, those were the days.

Not quite the same. In my neighborhood, we ran even if we were just walking to the store. When we got caught, we were often told to empty our pockets and sometimes taken to our home. In most cases, we were not guilty of doing anything illegal except maybe J walking
09-07-2017 03:47 PM
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umbluegray Online
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Post: #50
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:47 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:42 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:35 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Technically true but unlike public school, you have a choice of which college you want to attend and which classes you want to take. Not the case in High School.

Not necessarily true. In Tennessee you attend the school for your district by default. However, we have something called "optional schools" which allow students from other districts.

Further, there are actually 7 school systems in Shelby County:
1. Shelby County Schools
2. Arlington Schools
3. Bartlett Schools
4. Collierville Schools
5. Germantown Schools
6. Lakeland Schools
7. Millington Schools

Students inside Memphis city limits attend Shelby County Schools.

Districts 2-7 cover students in each of those municipalities.

Any student in an unincorporated area attends Shelby County Schools.


However, you do not HAVE to attend the school system covered by your district.
Certain specific schools are designated as Optional Schools. You can attend an optional school depending upon certain criteria.

Also, you can attend a school in any other district by paying $150 to that school systems.

Further, if you live outside Shelby County (like we do) you can attend any school in the various districts for a fee.

So, in certain areas of the country you do have the choice of which school your children attend.


The differentiation you make between high school and college, I think, does not change the fact that they are supported by tax dollars.

Can colleges willfully disregard discrimination laws because students choose to attend a specific school and specific classes?





What exactly have you been preparing her to face? Partying and drugs? Questioning religion or God? Having to read the Koran? What exactly are you talking about?

Assaults on her belief system. I'm not talking about rational discussion of varying views, but malicious assaults.

People often have differing views and opinions, but not all people approach these differences rationally.



Conservative beliefs are predominately taught at home because they are the most mundane. Family values, moral stories are taught to every child at home. Therefore, it's not until a high education comes into the picture that a young adult is ready to be challenged and think differently about the world they grew up in. I

I can't accept your explanation at face value. Liberal beliefs are taught at home as well. I suspect that liberal parents teach their children conservative values at home.

Of course, we see high-profile examples of my assertion when the media shares instances of parents allowing their 6 year old son to live life as if he were a girl.



I also disagree for a different reason. Our Founders thought religion and morality were to go hand-in-hand with education in order to maintain good government.

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

This phrase was repeated by Founders, fed and state founding documents and others.

I happen to agree with them.

And I think we see evidence confirming their thoughts given what we're seeing today.




That is a generalization but not entirely untrue. What college tried to do is make student think about how the world has been and challenge them to see the world how it can be. Whereas conservative value systems by definition see the world as it used to be and long to go back to those times. Liberal beliefs by definition frees the human to look to the future and how it can be made better.



You can reject it if you want to. As I said before, if you don't want your daughter to change, don't send her to college.

I think you are doing her a disservice however if you"preparing " her to be close minded to whatever is being taught there.

Why would I not want her to change? Who even implied that?

But change for change's sake is not necessarily good.

There is change that results in growth and conversely change that results in digression.

I believe you're generalizing closed-minded.

I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you're closed-minded when it comes to torturing other people.

We see examples in the news where members of ISIS torture, brutalize and even kill people.

If you were sitting in a college classroom and the professor discussed rationale behind that behavior in an attempt to justify it, would you be open minded? I sincerely doubt it.

There are times to be open-minded and then there are times not to be.

BTW, our nation is based on rule of law. Should I be open-minded about alternative possibilities? Personally, I don't think so. I think that abandoning the rule of law fundamentally changes what this nation is.

I understand there are many across the country who are involved in efforts to alter that. And I understand that line of thought is promoted in some state universities.

I do not, nor will I ever be open to abandoning our core founding principles. I hope to impress upon my daughter that she should not be open to that, either. But that will be her decision.


I don't disagree with everything you said except for the part where you say liberals teach their children at age 6 to become girls.


What you said here in a nut shell however is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Conservatives believe that our country was once great and the only way to get that back is to go back to the traditions of the past and what our founding fathers believed.

Liberals however believe the opposite. That our country can still become better and the only way do that is to move our country forward through progress.

I too have daughters and while I don't disagree with what you want for your daughter, I prefer to prepare my daughters for the world they live in today rather than the world our mother and father grew up in.

Perspective is everything. It depends on how you grew up. As I have said on this forum. We grew up learning that if you saw the cops you had to run and hide. Not really glory years.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply ALL liberals.


By the way, I grew up learning that when we were out egging cars or rolling houses that we should run when we saw cops, too.


Ahhh, those were the days.

Not quite the same. In my neighborhood, we ran even if we were just walking to the store. When we got caught, we were often told to empty our pockets and sometimes taken to our home. In most cases, we were not guilty of doing anything illegal except maybe J walking

I'm not trying to get personal so I won't ask. Not know you, this paragraph causes me to make an assumption.


I'll say this, though. Back in high school/early college I was into playing music. I had some really good friends who shared the same passion. We'd hang out and jam together. That's how I to turned on to Parliament-Funkadelic, et al.

Anyway, one day one of my friends, Tony, and I left his house heading back to the apartment.

He lived in a less-than-desirable part of town.

We got pulled over -- I was driving. The officer walked up and said, "I know what a a white guy and a black guy are doing in this part of town." And he started searching my car.


So while I didn't live in that kind of environment, I got a small taste of it.
09-07-2017 03:55 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech."

So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Quote:In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others.

And this shirt did that how?
09-07-2017 03:58 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 01:23 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:53 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 12:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 04:27 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 03:29 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Well if it isn't then that is one stupid school district because they would be in violation of a federal ruling.

What federal ruling is that?

Did you ever get an answer to this?

I think it was in Iowa. The kids names were Turner or Tanner or something like that.

The court on the issue:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

The court's 7–2 decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

So do you want to retract that "she was following a federal ruling"?

Oh my.

This one is an Epic!

I had no idea he was claiming it was Tinker, and wasn't going to go dig through case law to try and figure out WTF he was talking about. This case damn directly contradicts what this moronic "teacher" did.

If anything SHE is/was the one being "substantially disruptive" or whatever the possible exception is here. Good grief.
09-07-2017 04:32 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-07-2017 03:58 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 02:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You conveniently forgot the last part of the ruling.

But Fortas added an important caveat: conduct that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech."

So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Quote:In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others.

And this shirt did that how?

We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.
09-08-2017 10:27 AM
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Post: #54
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-08-2017 10:27 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:58 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Good question. No answer from Fit.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others.
And this shirt did that how?
We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.

Perhaps none of those things. What then?
09-08-2017 12:22 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-08-2017 12:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 10:27 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:58 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Good question. No answer from Fit.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others.
And this shirt did that how?
We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.

Perhaps none of those things. What then?

Then the teacher should be reprimanded.
09-11-2017 10:20 AM
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TigerBlue4Ever Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-11-2017 10:20 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 12:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 10:27 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:58 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Good question. No answer from Fit.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:In other words, not all student conduct is First Amendment protected, only that which does not disturb the classroom environment or invade the rights of others.
And this shirt did that how?
We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.

Perhaps none of those things. What then?

Then the teacher should be reprimanded.

Or fired.
09-11-2017 10:23 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-11-2017 10:23 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:20 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 12:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 10:27 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 03:58 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  So the teachers shrills were not constitutionally protected then?

Good question. No answer from Fit.

Quote:
Quote:And this shirt did that how?
We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.

Perhaps none of those things. What then?

Then the teacher should be reprimanded.

Or fired.

Too harsh. If they made a mistake they should be reprimanded. However, unless they have a history of poor judgement, they shouldn't be fired.
09-11-2017 10:26 AM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-08-2017 10:27 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  We don't know because we weren't in the classroom. Perhaps the students new before hand that some of the students were undocumented or that some of the student supported Hillary. What if the students were taunting other students with the shirts on. That would be reason to ask them to take the shirts off.

Are you really this obtuse Fit... Really? FFS it's not that hard to do, just say "I was wrong".

You're only here because you said "muh district rules" and then "muh federal regulations" now it's "muh ignorance of what happened in the classroom".

Here is what happened. A teacher saw the "Make America Great" slogan and got triggered. She compared it to a swastika and asked the kids to leave. The district saw this and *DISCIPLINED THE TEACHER* because she had no basis to take the kids out.
09-11-2017 10:41 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
Teacher fired.
09-11-2017 10:45 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Teacher slams patriotic shirts, kicks students out of class
(09-11-2017 10:45 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Teacher fired.

It's things like this that hopefully gives one pause to think:

I might notta done that.
09-11-2017 10:47 AM
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