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Divisionless Football Conferences?
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(11-25-2018 01:01 PM)virgosports Wrote:  [quote='Nerdlinger' pid='14513733' dateline='1503116800']
Proposals for some G5 conferences:

American
Central Florida: East Carolina, South Florida, Temple
Cincinnati: Connecticut, Memphis, South Florida
Connecticut: Cincinnati, South Florida, Temple
East Carolina: Central Florida, Navy, Temple
Houston: Navy, SMU, Tulane
Memphis: Cincinnati, Tulane, Tulsa
Navy: East Carolina, Houston, SMU
SMU: Houston, Navy, Tulsa
South Florida: Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut
Temple: Central Florida, Connecticut, East Carolina
Tulane: Houston, Memphis, Tulsa
Tulsa: Memphis, SMU, Tulane


This is fun to read. For Memphis (personal preference), I would replace Tulsa with Houston. For Houston, I imagine it would be SMU, Tulsa, Memphis. Cincy seems correct and for Navy, I assume it would be SMU, Tulane, Ecu.

That can be arranged. I had Navy with both Texas schools because I thought the Mids wanted to play them for recruiting purposes (which is why they ended up in the West instead of Cincinnati).

Code:
CENTRAL FLORIDA  Temple           East Carolina    South Florida    
CINCINNATI       Memphis          South Florida    Connecticut      
CONNECTICUT      South Florida    Temple           Cincinnati      
EAST CAROLINA    Navy             Central Florida  Temple          
HOUSTON          SMU              Memphis          Tulsa            
MEMPHIS          Cincinnati       Houston          Tulane          
NAVY             East Carolina    Tulane           SMU              
SMU              Houston          Tulsa            Navy            
SOUTH FLORIDA    Connecticut      Cincinnati       Central Florida  
TEMPLE           Central Florida  Connecticut      East Carolina    
TULANE           Tulsa            Navy             Memphis          
TULSA            Tulane           SMU              Houston
11-25-2018 04:09 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
Returning to FCS: After having dropped to 10 members following the departure of Campbell this year, the Pioneer Football League is returning to 11 with the addition of Presbyterian in 2021. Here's a setup for 2, 4, or 6 protected opponents:

Code:
SCHOOL          OPPONENTS W/ 2 PROTECTED       | ADD'L OPPONENTS W/ 4 PROTECTED | ADD'L OPPONENTS W/ 6 PROTECTED        
BUTLER          Dayton          Valparaiso     | Drake           Morehead State | Jacksonville    Presbyterian    
DAVIDSON        Presbyterian    Marist         | Jacksonville    Stetson        | Dayton          Morehead State  
DAYTON          Morehead State  Butler         | San Diego       Valparaiso     | Marist          Davidson        
DRAKE           Valparaiso      San Diego      | Morehead State  Butler         | Presbyterian    Stetson        
JACKSONVILLE    Stetson         Presbyterian   | Marist          Davidson       | San Diego       Butler          
MARIST          Davidson        Stetson        | Presbyterian    Jacksonville   | Valparaiso      Dayton          
MOREHEAD STATE  San Diego       Dayton         | Butler          Drake          | Davidson        Valparaiso      
PRESBYTERIAN    Jacksonville    Davidson       | Stetson         Marist         | Butler          Drake          
SAN DIEGO       Drake           Morehead State | Valparaiso      Dayton         | Stetson         Jacksonville    
STETSON         Marist          Jacksonville   | Davidson        Presbyterian   | Drake           San Diego      
VALPARAISO      Butler          Drake          | Dayton          San Diego      | Morehead State  Marist
12-05-2018 05:18 PM
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Post: #83
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
I've long argued that divisionless play is the path to larger leagues. Let the schools work out 2 to 4 games they mutually want played and let the league (read TV) sort out the rest.

Put the top two at the end of the run in the title game to sort it out.
12-06-2018 10:30 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(11-13-2018 06:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-13-2018 06:26 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Id be happy if the NCAA would allow conferences to have as many divisions as they like. As conferences get bigger---this will become a bigger issue.

What isn't allowed is for a conference to have more than one football conference title game that is exempt from the limit on the number of regular season games. And that's the sticking point. Extending the regular season by one or two more weeks so that a conference can have a 4 or 8 team football tournament, without giving extra games to every other team in FBS, is a non-starter.

What I'd rather see is elimination of all CCGs, to be replaced by a 16 team playoff that includes any division champion ranked in the Top 25. So, instead of Alabama vs Georgia that effectively eliminated one of them from the playoff, they would likely both have been high seeds with a possibility of both reaching the Final Four by their play on the field.
12-06-2018 11:24 AM
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Eldonabe Online
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Post: #85
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(12-06-2018 11:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I'd rather see is elimination of all CCGs, to be replaced by a 16 team playoff that includes any division champion ranked in the Top 25. So, instead of Alabama vs Georgia that effectively eliminated one of them from the playoff, they would likely both have been high seeds with a possibility of both reaching the Final Four by their play on the field.

Ken I think you are on to something here.....

Whether you have a CCG or just win your conference without one of those.... the stipulation of being in the top 25 (or maybe even top 20??) to qualify has some legs I think?

I still say 16 is too many teams as there is a "cliff" in there someplace after the best 6-8 teams of who can really win the National Championship, but at least the MAC Champion is not getting in just because they were the best sh*tty team who won their sh*tty conference.
12-07-2018 09:09 AM
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joeben69 Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany: Conference is Discussing Getting Rid of Divisions
https://sports.yahoo.com/big-ten-commiss...17459.html
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2018 11:24 AM by joeben69.)
12-07-2018 11:21 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(12-07-2018 11:21 AM)joeben69 Wrote:  Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany: Conference is Discussing Getting Rid of Divisions
https://sports.yahoo.com/big-ten-commiss...17459.html

Well, I've got a decent setup for 3, 4, or 5 protected matchups in a divisionless Big Ten for him! 03-wink

(08-18-2017 09:38 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Big Ten
Code:
ILLINOIS        Northwestern    Purdue          Rutgers        | Indiana        | Minnesota       
INDIANA         Purdue          Rutgers         Northwestern   | Illinois       | Maryland        
IOWA            Nebraska        Wisconsin       Minnesota      | Ohio State     | Michigan        
MARYLAND        Rutgers         Penn State      Purdue         | Minnesota      | Indiana         
MICHIGAN        Michigan State  Ohio State      Penn State     | Wisconsin      | Iowa            
MICHIGAN STATE  Michigan        Northwestern    Ohio State     | Nebraska       | Penn State      
MINNESOTA       Wisconsin       Nebraska        Iowa           | Maryland       | Illinois        
NEBRASKA        Iowa            Minnesota       Wisconsin      | Michigan State | Northwestern    
NORTHWESTERN    Illinois        Michigan State  Indiana        | Purdue         | Nebraska        
OHIO STATE      Penn State      Michigan        Michigan State | Iowa           | Wisconsin       
PENN STATE      Ohio State      Maryland        Michigan       | Rutgers        | Michigan State  
PURDUE          Indiana         Illinois        Maryland       | Northwestern   | Rutgers         
RUTGERS         Maryland        Indiana         Illinois       | Penn State     | Purdue          
WISCONSIN       Minnesota       Iowa            Nebraska       | Michigan       | Ohio State    
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2019 12:55 PM by Nerdlinger.)
12-07-2018 12:01 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(12-07-2018 09:09 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(12-06-2018 11:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I'd rather see is elimination of all CCGs, to be replaced by a 16 team playoff that includes any division champion ranked in the Top 25. So, instead of Alabama vs Georgia that effectively eliminated one of them from the playoff, they would likely both have been high seeds with a possibility of both reaching the Final Four by their play on the field.

Ken I think you are on to something here.....

Whether you have a CCG or just win your conference without one of those.... the stipulation of being in the top 25 (or maybe even top 20??) to qualify has some legs I think?

I still say 16 is too many teams as there is a "cliff" in there someplace after the best 6-8 teams of who can really win the National Championship, but at least the MAC Champion is not getting in just because they were the best sh*tty team who won their sh*tty conference.

I agree that some of the 16 teams that would make this field will have no realistic chance of winning four games in this tournament. My intent in this model is to insure that every team that does have a realistic chance is included.

I was also trying to be sure that no G5 team would be left out solely as a result of poll bias. That is, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt over marginal P5 division champions. This model also provides a path for all Independent teams. None of the top ranked teams get a bye. They should beat their first round opponent easily, but not as easily as if it were a body bag opponent. Hopefully, it's not a completely unwatchable game.

This year, using a composite of human polls and computer rankings, 8 out of 10 P5 division champions would have made the field, along with 3 of 10 G5 champs and 1 Independent. The lowest ranked at-large team was #12 LSU.

The highest ranked champion left out was Northwestern ranked #30. The highest ranked G5 champ was Appalachian State at #35. I would argue that neither had a chance of winning a 16 team tournament.
12-08-2018 08:26 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(11-19-2018 09:39 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Like the Big Sky and Southland (and most FCS conferences), the CAA lacks divisions. Unlike the Big Sky and Southland, however, the CAA actually has an even number of football teams (12), so any number of protected matchups per team can work for them. The conference schedule is 8 games. Below is a schedule for 3, 4, or 5 protected matchups. Again, I tried to protect the biggest rivalries first. Any thoughts on this?

Code:
ALBANY          Maine           Stony Brook     New Hampshire  | Rhode Island   | James Madison  
DELAWARE        Towson          Villanova       James Madison  | William & Mary | Richmond        
ELON            William & Mary  Richmond        Towson         | James Madison  | Villanova      
JAMES MADISON   Richmond        William & Mary  Delaware       | Elon           | Albany          
MAINE           New Hampshire   Albany          Rhode Island   | Villanova      | Stony Brook    
NEW HAMPSHIRE   Rhode Island    Maine           Albany         | Stony Brook    | Towson          
RHODE ISLAND    Stony Brook     New Hampshire   Maine          | Albany         | William & Mary  
RICHMOND        Elon            James Madison   William & Mary | Towson         | Delaware        
STONY BROOK     Albany          Rhode Island    Villanova      | New Hampshire  | Maine          
TOWSON          Villanova       Delaware        Elon           | Richmond       | New Hampshire  
VILLANOVA       Delaware        Towson          Stony Brook    | Maine          | Elon            
WILLIAM & MARY  James Madison   Elon            Richmond       | Delaware       | Rhode Island

The schedule with 5 protected matchups could have worked out the same as if the teams were split into the following nice geographic divisions:

North: Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Villanova
South: Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Richmond, Towson, William & Mary

... except that Delaware/Villanova had to be protected, which meant a bunch of other "cross-division" matchups (of dubious rivalry value) also had to be protected.

Actually, a divisional setup like this might work well:

North: Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Towson
South: Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Richmond, Villanova, William & Mary

This just swaps Towson and Villanova in order to keep Delaware and Villanova together. Each team could play its division plus half the other division every year for an 8-game conference schedule.

Here I've imagined that UConn has returned to the Big East and dropped football back down to FCS along with UMass (which otherwise remains in the A-10). Not an unlikely scenario, IMO. Both FB programs join the CAA, reuniting all 5 FB-playing New England flagships.

Code:
ALBANY          Stony Brook     Maine           New Hampshire  | Connecticut     Massachusetts  
CONNECTICUT     Rhode Island    Stony Brook     Massachusetts  | New Hampshire   Albany          
DELAWARE        Villanova       James Madison   Towson         | Richmond        William & Mary  
ELON            William & Mary  Towson          Richmond       | Villanova       James Madison  
JAMES MADISON   Delaware        Richmond        William & Mary | Elon            Towson          
MAINE           Albany          New Hampshire   Rhode Island   | Massachusetts   Stony Brook    
MASSACHUSETTS   New Hampshire   Rhode Island    Connecticut    | Albany          Maine          
NEW HAMPSHIRE   Maine           Massachusetts   Albany         | Rhode Island    Connecticut    
RHODE ISLAND    Massachusetts   Connecticut     Maine          | Stony Brook     New Hampshire  
RICHMOND        James Madison   William & Mary  Elon           | Towson          Delaware        
STONY BROOK     Connecticut     Albany          Villanova      | Maine           Rhode Island    
TOWSON          Elon            Villanova       Delaware       | James Madison   Richmond        
VILLANOVA       Towson          Delaware        Stony Brook    | William & Mary  Elon            
WILLIAM & MARY  Richmond        Elon            James Madison  | Delaware        Villanova

A 2-division setup is also possible, at least for scheduling purposes.

North: Albany, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Stony Brook
South: Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Richmond, Towson, Villanova, William & Mary

That works out pretty well, with no need for protected crossovers.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2019 12:02 AM by Nerdlinger.)
01-26-2019 12:00 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Divisionless Football Conferences?
(11-16-2018 01:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 05:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So there is already at least one large conference that lacks divisions and uses protected matchups for football: the Big Sky Conference. There will be 14 football schools in the Big Sky in the 2018 and 2019 seasons (technically 13, as UND is FCS independent but is still playing a Big Sky schedule). Each team has 2 protected rivals, as shown here.

Right now they're using an 8-game conference schedule, but they may be moving to 9 games in 2020. That year North Dakota football joins the MVFC, leaving 13 football schools once again. Presumably, if the conference sticks with 2 protected matchups, MSU and UNC (UND's partners) will just play each other.

Since Idaho is rejoining as a football school this year, EWU is losing its protected matchup with UM. This could be reversed in 2020 by increasing the number of protected matchups. This also would allow Idaho to play ISU every year. Having 3 protected matchups in a 13-team conference means that one team is perpetually going to end up with 2 or 4 protected matchups, so perhaps 4 matchups across the board would be better.

Here's my proposal for the protected matchups for 2020 on:

Cal Poly: Sac State, UC Davis + NAU, SUU
EWU: Idaho, PSU + Montana, MSU
Idaho: EWU, Montana + ISU, PSU
ISU: Weber + Idaho, Montana, MSU (- PSU)
Montana: Idaho, MSU + EWU, ISU
MSU: Montana + EWU, ISU, UNC, (- UND)
NAU: SUU, UNC + Cal Poly, UC Davis
PSU: EWU + Idaho, Sac State, UC Davis (- ISU)
Sac State: Cal Poly, UC Davis + PSU, Weber
SUU: NAU, Weber + Cal Poly, UNC
UC Davis: Cal Poly, Sac State + NAU, PSU
UNC: NAU + MSU, SUU, Weber (- UND)
Weber: ISU, SUU + Sac State, UNC

With an 8-game schedule, each team can play half the 8 non-protected opponents every year. A 9-game schedule is doable; it just makes these pairings more frequent. Note that a 9-game conference schedule with 13 teams means one team will end up with 8 or 10 conference games. The team affected by this can be rotated annually.

Here's the Big Sky schedule proposed above in table form, plus 2 more columns of opponents:

Code:
SCHOOL              OPPONENTS WITH 2 PROTECTED             | ADD'L OPPONENTS WITH 4 PROTECTED       | ADD'L OPPONENTS WITH 6 PROTECTED
CAL POLY            Sacramento State    UC Davis           | Southern Utah       Northern Arizona   | Idaho               Northern Colorado  
EASTERN WASHINGTON  Montana             Portland State     | Idaho               Montana State      | UC Davis            Sacramento State    
IDAHO               Portland State      Idaho State        | Montana             Eastern Washington | Montana State       Cal Poly            
IDAHO STATE         Idaho               Weber State        | Montana State       Montana            | Northern Colorado   Southern Utah      
MONTANA             Montana State       Eastern Washington | Idaho State         Idaho              | Weber State         Portland State      
MONTANA STATE       Northern Colorado   Montana            | Eastern Washington  Idaho State        | Portland State      Idaho              
NORTHERN ARIZONA    Southern Utah       Northern Colorado  | Cal Poly            UC Davis           | Sacramento State    Weber State        
NORTHERN COLORADO   Northern Arizona    Montana State      | Weber State         Southern Utah      | Cal Poly            Idaho State        
PORTLAND STATE      Eastern Washington  Idaho              | UC Davis            Sacramento State   | Montana             Montana State      
SACRAMENTO STATE    UC Davis            Cal Poly           | Portland State      Weber State        | Eastern Washington  Northern Arizona    
SOUTHERN UTAH       Weber State         Northern Arizona   | Northern Colorado   Cal Poly           | Idaho State         UC Davis            
UC DAVIS            Cal Poly            Sacramento State   | Northern Arizona    Portland State     | Southern Utah       Eastern Washington  
WEBER STATE         Idaho State         Southern Utah      | Sacramento State    Northern Colorado  | Northern Arizona    Montana

The first 2 columns of opponents are for a conference schedule with 2 protected opponents, the next 2 columns are additional opponents for a schedule with 4 protected opponents, and the last 2 columns are even more opponents for a schedule with 6 protected opponents.

And here is an alternate divisionless schedule that includes NMSU, in case they decide to throw in the FBS towel like Idaho:

Code:
CAL POLY            Northern Arizona    Sacramento State    UC Davis           | Southern Utah      | New Mexico State    
EASTERN WASHINGTON  Portland State      Montana             Idaho              | UC Davis           | Sacramento State    
IDAHO               Montana             Idaho State         Eastern Washington | Portland State     | Montana State      
IDAHO STATE         Montana State       Idaho               Weber State        | Montana            | Portland State      
MONTANA             Idaho               Eastern Washington  Montana State      | Idaho State        | Weber State        
MONTANA STATE       Idaho State         Northern Colorado   Montana            | Sacramento State   | Idaho              
NEW MEXICO STATE    Southern Utah       Northern Arizona    Northern Colorado  | Weber State        | Cal Poly            
NORTHERN ARIZONA    Cal Poly            New Mexico State    Southern Utah      | Northern Colorado  | UC Davis            
NORTHERN COLORADO   Weber State         Montana State       New Mexico State   | Northern Arizona   | Southern Utah      
PORTLAND STATE      Eastern Washington  UC Davis            Sacramento State   | Idaho              | Idaho State        
SACRAMENTO STATE    UC Davis            Cal Poly            Portland State     | Montana State      | Eastern Washington  
SOUTHERN UTAH       New Mexico State    Weber State         Northern Arizona   | Cal Poly           | Northern Colorado  
UC DAVIS            Sacramento State    Portland State      Cal Poly           | Eastern Washington | Northern Arizona    
WEBER STATE         Northern Colorado   Southern Utah       Idaho State        | New Mexico State   | Montana

The first 3 columns of opponents are for a conference schedule with 3 protected opponents, the additional 4th column is for a schedule with 4 protected opponents, and the additional 5th column is for a schedule with 5 protected opponents.

With 14 teams, the Big Sky could instead go with a 2-division alignment, like so:

North: Eastern Washington, Idaho, Idaho State, Montana, Montana State, Northern Colorado, Portland State
South: Cal Poly, New Mexico State, Northern Arizona, Sacramento State, Southern Utah, UC Davis, Weber State

But of course there's less incentive to do so in FCS, where there are few conference championship games due to the tournament.

---

EDIT: As it turns out, the Big Sky is not actually planning to move to 9 conference games in 2020: https://www.foxsports.com/college-footba...ule-102116

This is evidenced by Cal Poly's 2020 schedule, which can be found here: https://fbschedules.com/ncaa/cal-poly/

An alternate Big Sky setup wherein San Diego, the only other current FCS team out west, joins the conference:

Code:
CAL POLY            San Diego           Sacramento State    UC Davis           | Southern Utah      | Northern Arizona    
EASTERN WASHINGTON  Idaho               Portland State      Montana            | UC Davis           | Sacramento State    
IDAHO               Eastern Washington  Montana             Idaho State        | Montana State      | Northern Colorado  
IDAHO STATE         Portland State      Weber State         Idaho              | Montana            | Montana State      
MONTANA             Montana State       Idaho               Eastern Washington | Idaho State        | Weber State        
MONTANA STATE       Montana             Northern Colorado   Portland State     | Idaho              | Idaho State        
NORTHERN ARIZONA    Northern Colorado   Southern Utah       Weber State        | San Diego          | Cal Poly            
NORTHERN COLORADO   Northern Arizona    Montana State       Southern Utah      | Weber State        | Idaho              
PORTLAND STATE      Idaho State         Eastern Washington  Montana State      | Sacramento State   | UC Davis            
SACRAMENTO STATE    UC Davis            Cal Poly            San Diego          | Portland State     | Eastern Washington  
SAN DIEGO           Cal Poly            UC Davis            Sacramento State   | Northern Arizona   | Southern Utah      
SOUTHERN UTAH       Weber State         Northern Arizona    Northern Colorado  | Cal Poly           | San Diego          
UC DAVIS            Sacramento State    San Diego           Cal Poly           | Eastern Washington | Portland State      
WEBER STATE         Southern Utah       Idaho State         Northern Arizona   | Northern Colorado  | Montana
02-02-2019 10:33 AM
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