Absolute garbage.
Those classes were established to help boost lagging graduation rates for the black student population so that the university could come into compliance and qualify for federal research dollars. This was engineered by North Carolina's "governor for life" Jim Hunt on his way to land the vice-presidential nomination (with Bill Clinton) for the 1996 election.
And it worked just like Hunt envisioned, except another Southerner Al Gore landed the VP slot instead of Hunt.
Since the year 2000, the research dollars at Carolina have quadrupled and has become a huge economic engine in the State of North Carolina..
http://research.unc.edu/about/facts-rankings/

It didn't matter if the black students were athletes or Library Science majors, they just had to graduate in sufficient numbers to keep Carolina in federal compliance.

http://research.unc.edu/files/2017/08/Re...Aug-FA.pdf

This story is about money.....federal research money ....and all of the decisions were made above the University level.

(08-18-2017 02:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  Absolute garbage.
Those classes were established to help boost lagging graduation rates for the black student population so that the university could come into compliance and qualify for federal research dollars. This was engineered by North Carolina's "governor for life" Jim Hunt on his way to land the vice-presidential nomination (with Bill Clinton) for the 1996 election.
And it worked just like Hunt envisioned, except another Southerner Al Gore landed the VP slot instead of Hunt.
Since the year 2000, the research dollars at Carolina have quadrupled and has become a huge economic engine in the State of North Carolina..
http://research.unc.edu/about/facts-rankings/

It didn't matter if the black students were athletes or Library Science majors, they just had to graduate in sufficient numbers to keep Carolina in federal compliance.

http://research.unc.edu/files/2017/08/Re...Aug-FA.pdf

This story is about money.....federal research money ....and all of the decisions were made above the University level.

That is also an interesting perspective.

It's also one I'm willing to buy, at least in part.

(08-18-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 08:19 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Then what would you suggest?

Compromise.

Treating UNC with integrity, as the world class university that it is. Which is unquestionable. NOT treating it like a hoodlum who just stole from a convenience store.

Allow it to propose corrective actions and punishments that it thinks are appropriate for what happened, and go from there.

Obviously you believe in country club prisons for the Bernie Madoffs of the world, and old line concrete tombs for common thieves. This is a Republic that fancies itself to be a Democracy. In truth we are stinking it up as a corporate oligarchy! The last thing we need is to continue the class distinctions for the criminals. One may be a well respected, learned, socialite and commit murder, rape, or theft. But usually when the wealthy and well thought of steal it is on a massive scale that ruins the lives of thousands if not more. So you are telling me they need to be treated with respect and dignity?

There is no difference if UNC cheats, or North Dakota State does it. World class universities don't commit academic fraud to win a basketball title! That's the difference between judgement and discernment. Judgments are rendered based on what you hear about someone. Discernment is knowing them by what they do or don't do, and not by what others say or think about them.

UNC committed fraud, virtually admitted as much, and are using their clout to try to stonewall justice. In our country, at this very point in our history, after too big to fail and country club prisons for white collar criminals, tipping the hat to UNC based upon their reputation and so called stature and giving their sense of privilege a nod is exactly the wrong the thing to do.

Our folks need to learn again that justice is blind, the laws applicable to everyone, and the punishment uniform in administration. That goes for enforcing NCAA rules as well. If you are going to hammer the little guy for similar infractions you have to hammer the big guy too.

(08-18-2017 02:51 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I think he was thinking more along the lines of football.

They had limited success even with the free grades.

Even basketball -- you can't possibly pretend that they wouldn't have found a way to keep them eligible, if this class didn't exist. It was a convenience, nothing more. Easy classes can be found, tutors can help get you a C, etc. You just have to earn credit, not blow the doors off the place.

The idea that this fake class was only way they were keeping these kids eligible, is a farce and is laughable.

I will reiterate:

Quote:What I am stunned by is the continued appearance of apologists. I have followed this story for at least 5 years. The mountain of evidence that has been accumulated is staggering and absolutely unprecedented. If there were ever a case of academic fraud for athletic advantage, this is it. The requisite cognitive dissonance of anyone who has seen this evidence in attempts to deny these facts is absolutely absurd. I understand the emotional need to defray and decry the obvious, but logically, you have absolutely no ground to stand on. None.

There is nothing holy or special about UNC's athletics department. They are cheaters who exploited athletes for financial gain and championships for their alumni and fans in exchange for useless degrees in place of actual learning. There is no rationalizing this.

Also, what they appeared for in front of the COI is just the tip of the iceberg. From pell grant fraud to getting fake learning disability qualifications from the girlfriend of Fats Thomas in Durham for special treatment, to feeding their players Adderall, etc etc. There is so much more to their depravity. They are figuratively the bank robbers getting stuck with a speeding ticket, and then whining about it. $20,000,000 and years of obfuscation and grandstanding, and yet apologists still feel they are being treated unfairly. Ridiculous.

JR, your post is very well written and very passionate. I have to give you props for that, and respect it. I just don't agree with it

(08-18-2017 02:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  Absolute garbage.
Those classes were established to help boost lagging graduation rates for the black student population so that the university could come into compliance and qualify for federal research dollars. This was engineered by North Carolina's "governor for life" Jim Hunt on his way to land the vice-presidential nomination (with Bill Clinton) for the 1996 election.
And it worked just like Hunt envisioned, except another Southerner Al Gore landed the VP slot instead of Hunt.
Since the year 2000, the research dollars at Carolina have quadrupled and has become a huge economic engine in the State of North Carolina..
http://research.unc.edu/about/facts-rankings/

It didn't matter if the black students were athletes or Library Science majors, they just had to graduate in sufficient numbers to keep Carolina in federal compliance.

http://research.unc.edu/files/2017/08/Re...Aug-FA.pdf

This story is about money.....federal research money ....and all of the decisions were made above the University level.

So basically UNC cooked the books so they could qualify for handouts from the almighty Feds? Sounds lovely.

Do we need more evidence that academic rankings are mostly a farce?

Anyway, I'm a little confused as to why there were apparently students admitted to UNC who were incapable of graduating? So much so in fact that they needed to be given a degree? And why were these students disproportionately black?

(08-18-2017 02:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  Absolute garbage.
Those classes were established to help boost lagging graduation rates for the black student population so that the university could come into compliance and qualify for federal research dollars. This was engineered by North Carolina's "governor for life" Jim Hunt on his way to land the vice-presidential nomination (with Bill Clinton) for the 1996 election.
And it worked just like Hunt envisioned, except another Southerner Al Gore landed the VP slot instead of Hunt.
Since the year 2000, the research dollars at Carolina have quadrupled and has become a huge economic engine in the State of North Carolina..
http://research.unc.edu/about/facts-rankings/

It didn't matter if the black students were athletes or Library Science majors, they just had to graduate in sufficient numbers to keep Carolina in federal compliance.

http://research.unc.edu/files/2017/08/Re...Aug-FA.pdf

This story is about money.....federal research money ....and all of the decisions were made above the University level.

So, you're saying blacks at UNC-CH aren't intelligent enough so you have to dumb it down in order to qualify for even more gub'mint money? THAT is actual racism. Institutionalized at that.

At least you acknowledge the federal portion of this affair: you're looking at federal student loan fraud if any of the students taking these sham courses were recipients of federal aid.

This started with Dean Smith. And specifically to benefit Rasheed Wallace to keep him eligible. Use all the semantics and word play you want, but you're guilty and you know it.

If, for whatever reason, UNC-CH gets off the remaining members of the UNC system may wish to have a word with the PTB in Raleigh. That will certainly be a lot uglier than anything the NCAA can do.

(08-21-2017 08:33 PM)TheOriginalBigApp Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 02:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  Absolute garbage.
Those classes were established to help boost lagging graduation rates for the black student population so that the university could come into compliance and qualify for federal research dollars. This was engineered by North Carolina's "governor for life" Jim Hunt on his way to land the vice-presidential nomination (with Bill Clinton) for the 1996 election.
And it worked just like Hunt envisioned, except another Southerner Al Gore landed the VP slot instead of Hunt.
Since the year 2000, the research dollars at Carolina have quadrupled and has become a huge economic engine in the State of North Carolina..
http://research.unc.edu/about/facts-rankings/

It didn't matter if the black students were athletes or Library Science majors, they just had to graduate in sufficient numbers to keep Carolina in federal compliance.

http://research.unc.edu/files/2017/08/Re...Aug-FA.pdf

This story is about money.....federal research money ....and all of the decisions were made above the University level.

So, you're saying blacks at UNC-CH aren't intelligent enough so you have to dumb it down in order to qualify for even more gub'mint money? THAT is actual racism. Institutionalized at that.

At least you acknowledge the federal portion of this affair: you're looking at federal student loan fraud if any of the students taking these sham courses were recipients of federal aid.

This started with Dean Smith. And specifically to benefit Rasheed Wallace to keep him eligible. Use all the semantics and word play you want, but you're guilty and you know it.

If, for whatever reason, UNC-CH gets off the remaining members of the UNC system may wish to have a word with the PTB in Raleigh. That will certainly be a lot uglier than anything the NCAA can do.

Without making this racial, yes. That's a statistical reality that many schools face.

(08-17-2017 10:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-17-2017 03:12 PM)Artifice Wrote:  1) Vacation of all wins in the affected sports during the specified period. This includes removal of championship banners for those sports.

Vacating wins or records is silly. There is no point in pretending that USC didn't win a football title, or that Louisville didn't win a basketball title, or that Lance Armstrong didn't win the Tour de France 7 times, or whatever. It happened. Just say, "They won, but they cheated."

I agree on wins. But the stiffest penalty UNC could get beyond the death penalty is to make them take those banners down. Take them out of their media guides. Take them out of their school advertising.

(08-18-2017 03:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 08:19 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Then what would you suggest?

Compromise.

Treating UNC with integrity, as the world class university that it is. Which is unquestionable. NOT treating it like a hoodlum who just stole from a convenience store.

Allow it to propose corrective actions and punishments that it thinks are appropriate for what happened, and go from there.

Obviously you believe in country club prisons for the Bernie Madoffs of the world, and old line concrete tombs for common thieves. This is a Republic that fancies itself to be a Democracy. In truth we are stinking it up as a corporate oligarchy! The last thing we need is to continue the class distinctions for the criminals. One may be a well respected, learned, socialite and commit murder, rape, or theft. But usually when the wealthy and well thought of steal it is on a massive scale that ruins the lives of thousands if not more. So you are telling me they need to be treated with respect and dignity?

There is no difference if UNC cheats, or North Dakota State does it. World class universities don't commit academic fraud to win a basketball title! That's the difference between judgement and discernment. Judgments are rendered based on what you hear about someone. Discernment is knowing them by what they do or don't do, and not by what others say or think about them.

UNC committed fraud, virtually admitted as much, and are using their clout to try to stonewall justice. In our country, at this very point in our history, after too big to fail and country club prisons for white collar criminals, tipping the hat to UNC based upon their reputation and so called stature and giving their sense of privilege a nod is exactly the wrong the thing to do.

Our folks need to learn again that justice is blind, the laws applicable to everyone, and the punishment uniform in administration. That goes for enforcing NCAA rules as well. If you are going to hammer the little guy for similar infractions you have to hammer the big guy too.

JR that is all noble stuff, but it is not the reality that exists today. Of course there is a gigantic distinction between UNC and NDSt. It is an unwritten rule that has existed for decades. It is a tonuge in cheek joke, but NDSt will pay for UNC's sins..... I don't agree with any of it - meaning I agree with you - but who exactly is going to enforce the justice to this blind rhetoric - exactly NOBODY.

Every school especially FBS/D1 bend the rules for their sports(s). Some are more egregious than others but every single one does it in one form or another.

It is disgusting that Athletes who play a game for a living get paid multiples and multiples more than the person who actually does something like teach kids Math and English and can truly affect lives. Instead, those people work 35 years, hopefully retire on their own terms and can afford to play golf once a week on their pittance of a pension, while these spoiled brats who skate through life playing a game can live like kings after their career is over at 30 or 35 years of age.

THAT inequity will never go away, and that is why UNC will get a slap on the wrist (maybe). It all comes down to MONEY MONEY MONEY and the wrong people make it for the wrong reasons.... and our society allows, endorses and rewards it every single f-ing day.

(08-22-2017 02:30 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 03:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 08:19 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Then what would you suggest?

Compromise.

Treating UNC with integrity, as the world class university that it is. Which is unquestionable. NOT treating it like a hoodlum who just stole from a convenience store.

Allow it to propose corrective actions and punishments that it thinks are appropriate for what happened, and go from there.

Obviously you believe in country club prisons for the Bernie Madoffs of the world, and old line concrete tombs for common thieves. This is a Republic that fancies itself to be a Democracy. In truth we are stinking it up as a corporate oligarchy! The last thing we need is to continue the class distinctions for the criminals. One may be a well respected, learned, socialite and commit murder, rape, or theft. But usually when the wealthy and well thought of steal it is on a massive scale that ruins the lives of thousands if not more. So you are telling me they need to be treated with respect and dignity?

There is no difference if UNC cheats, or North Dakota State does it. World class universities don't commit academic fraud to win a basketball title! That's the difference between judgement and discernment. Judgments are rendered based on what you hear about someone. Discernment is knowing them by what they do or don't do, and not by what others say or think about them.

UNC committed fraud, virtually admitted as much, and are using their clout to try to stonewall justice. In our country, at this very point in our history, after too big to fail and country club prisons for white collar criminals, tipping the hat to UNC based upon their reputation and so called stature and giving their sense of privilege a nod is exactly the wrong the thing to do.

Our folks need to learn again that justice is blind, the laws applicable to everyone, and the punishment uniform in administration. That goes for enforcing NCAA rules as well. If you are going to hammer the little guy for similar infractions you have to hammer the big guy too.

JR that is all noble stuff, but it is not the reality that exists today. Of course there is a gigantic distinction between UNC and NDSt. It is an unwritten rule that has existed for decades. It is a tonuge in cheek joke, but NDSt will pay for UNC's sins..... I don't agree with any of it - meaning I agree with you - but who exactly is going to enforce the justice to this blind rhetoric - exactly NOBODY.

Every school especially FBS/D1 bend the rules for their sports(s). Some are more egregious than others but every single one does it in one form or another.

It is disgusting that Athletes who play a game for a living get paid multiples and multiples more than the person who actually does something like teach kids Math and English and can truly affect lives. Instead, those people work 35 years, hopefully retire on their own terms and can afford to play golf once a week on their pittance of a pension, while these spoiled brats who skate through life playing a game can live like kings after their career is over at 30 or 35 years of age.

THAT inequity will never go away, and that is why UNC will get a slap on the wrist (maybe). It all comes down to MONEY MONEY MONEY and the wrong people make it for the wrong reasons.... and our society allows, endorses and rewards it every single f-ing day.

Welcome to the corporate oligarchy that we have become. It's sad that jocks make more than brain surgeons, but the brain surgeons tend to hang onto their earnings whereas way too many of the jocks get taken by their brokers, or simply throw it away as fast as they make it. Note: This certainly isn't the trajectory of all ex athletes and there are many that do quite well for the rest of their lives, but they tend to be in the minority of that category. In short they are a lot like lotto winners 10 years after their winnings. So some social Darwinism is still in play.

Quite simply the crux of the OP is that there is a looming dilemma. Either the NCAA loses all credibility here and we limp on in even a more deplorable state of affairs than heretofore, or UNC gets a stiff penalty, which according to their fans, will lead to a spoiled brat crying jag complete with temper tantrums, blaming, the spreading around of as much pain as possible, and finally another denial followed by a perpetual histrionic state of existence. When it happens we will all be embarrassed, not for them, but for the complete sideshow it will make of whatever season in which sanctions are announced.

For once I'm rooting for the NCAA. I would much rather watch the UNC meltdown than to watch a sport I love deteriorate exponentially in the wake of a de-fanged NCAA.

The bright side of this might be the formation of a new oversight organization should the NCAA wuss out, but we are nowhere close to being prepared to go that route despite the talk that has always been out there about doing so. The simple truth is that our schools' presidents aren't proactive and are bureaucracy friendly and they don't want to put the energy, resources and time into the creation of a new entity.

Books could, and should, be written about how since the post WWII era we have allowed things to get into their present condition. But the short of it is that we have for the sake of convenience eschewed our responsibilities and granted largess to those entities that made life easier for us and have done so without considering the costs. Shame on us!

(08-18-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 08:19 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Then what would you suggest?

Compromise.

Treating UNC with integrity, as the world class university that it is. Which is unquestionable. NOT treating it like a hoodlum who just stole from a convenience store.

Allow it to propose corrective actions and punishments that it thinks are appropriate for what happened, and go from there.

To me, UNC got their compromise when SACS didn't do anything significant regarding the schools' accreditation. The fake class was run for so long that it transcended being a strictly athletic problem IMO.

Allowing UNC to dictate its punishment seems foolhardy. They'll reduce some scholarships, accept a bowl ban (but not a tourney one) and allow someone to come and audit the schools curriculum once every five years.

The idea that someone shouldn't get punished because everyone is doing it doesn't fly with speeding and it shouldn't fly here either. UNC is a world class academic institution, that decided it wanted to also be a leading athletic one as well. No outside forces made the administration choose this path.

(08-22-2017 03:39 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-22-2017 02:30 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 03:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 08:19 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Then what would you suggest?

Compromise.

Treating UNC with integrity, as the world class university that it is. Which is unquestionable. NOT treating it like a hoodlum who just stole from a convenience store.

Allow it to propose corrective actions and punishments that it thinks are appropriate for what happened, and go from there.

Obviously you believe in country club prisons for the Bernie Madoffs of the world, and old line concrete tombs for common thieves. This is a Republic that fancies itself to be a Democracy. In truth we are stinking it up as a corporate oligarchy! The last thing we need is to continue the class distinctions for the criminals. One may be a well respected, learned, socialite and commit murder, rape, or theft. But usually when the wealthy and well thought of steal it is on a massive scale that ruins the lives of thousands if not more. So you are telling me they need to be treated with respect and dignity?

There is no difference if UNC cheats, or North Dakota State does it. World class universities don't commit academic fraud to win a basketball title! That's the difference between judgement and discernment. Judgments are rendered based on what you hear about someone. Discernment is knowing them by what they do or don't do, and not by what others say or think about them.

UNC committed fraud, virtually admitted as much, and are using their clout to try to stonewall justice. In our country, at this very point in our history, after too big to fail and country club prisons for white collar criminals, tipping the hat to UNC based upon their reputation and so called stature and giving their sense of privilege a nod is exactly the wrong the thing to do.

Our folks need to learn again that justice is blind, the laws applicable to everyone, and the punishment uniform in administration. That goes for enforcing NCAA rules as well. If you are going to hammer the little guy for similar infractions you have to hammer the big guy too.

JR that is all noble stuff, but it is not the reality that exists today. Of course there is a gigantic distinction between UNC and NDSt. It is an unwritten rule that has existed for decades. It is a tonuge in cheek joke, but NDSt will pay for UNC's sins..... I don't agree with any of it - meaning I agree with you - but who exactly is going to enforce the justice to this blind rhetoric - exactly NOBODY.

Every school especially FBS/D1 bend the rules for their sports(s). Some are more egregious than others but every single one does it in one form or another.

It is disgusting that Athletes who play a game for a living get paid multiples and multiples more than the person who actually does something like teach kids Math and English and can truly affect lives. Instead, those people work 35 years, hopefully retire on their own terms and can afford to play golf once a week on their pittance of a pension, while these spoiled brats who skate through life playing a game can live like kings after their career is over at 30 or 35 years of age.

THAT inequity will never go away, and that is why UNC will get a slap on the wrist (maybe). It all comes down to MONEY MONEY MONEY and the wrong people make it for the wrong reasons.... and our society allows, endorses and rewards it every single f-ing day.

Welcome to the corporate oligarchy that we have become. It's sad that jocks make more than brain surgeons, but the brain surgeons tend to hang onto their earnings whereas way too many of the jocks get taken by their brokers, or simply throw it away as fast as they make it. Note: This certainly isn't the trajectory of all ex athletes and there are many that do quite well for the rest of their lives, but they tend to be in the minority of that category. In short they are a lot like lotto winners 10 years after their winnings. So some social Darwinism is still in play.

Quite simply the crux of the OP is that there is a looming dilemma. Either the NCAA loses all credibility here and we limp on in even a more deplorable state of affairs than heretofore, or UNC gets a stiff penalty, which according to their fans, will lead to a spoiled brat crying jag complete with temper tantrums, blaming, the spreading around of as much pain as possible, and finally another denial followed by a perpetual histrionic state of existence. When it happens we will all be embarrassed, not for them, but for the complete sideshow it will make of whatever season in which sanctions are announced.

For once I'm rooting for the NCAA. I would much rather watch the UNC meltdown than to watch a sport I love deteriorate exponentially in the wake of a de-fanged NCAA.

The bright side of this might be the formation of a new oversight organization should the NCAA wuss out, but we are nowhere close to being prepared to go that route despite the talk that has always been out there about doing so. The simple truth is that our schools' presidents aren't proactive and are bureaucracy friendly and they don't want to put the energy, resources and time into the creation of a new entity.

Books could, and should, be written about how since the post WWII era we have allowed things to get into their present condition. But the short of it is that we have for the sake of convenience eschewed our responsibilities and granted largess to those entities that made life easier for us and have done so without considering the costs. Shame on us!

...we're already there. TV revenues continue to skyrocket, providing a real financial incentive for programs to try and bend the rules for even more money. The NCAA can pass punishments down the line, but when is the last time you've seen ANY FBS school truly get hammered to the point where it leaves a mark?

The scariest part is that schools trying to break through are going to throw all of the rules out of the window and make one final push upward.

I am suspicious that TV networks may have whispered into the NCAA's ear to not hurt anyone too bad (esp. P5) so that their bottom line is held up. As a result, everyone pretends to fool each other that they are playing above board - but it's well known by those involved in the process that it is anything but.

College football is the lie that everyone tells each other so often that we've convinced each other that it's the truth.

My thoughts here are that the NCAA will go light on UNC and thus sign their own death warrants.

By not punishing UNC, the NCAA will incur the wrath of the lesser conferences who've been punished far to harshly in comparison to the bigger conferences for years.

Once this occurs, the bigger conferences (P5 and possible AAC, MWC and Big East) will separate and create their own structure. They will do so to protect the Media and their bottom lines. They will claim they aren't part of the NCAA and thus any issues arising form law suites do not apply to them.

That's my take on what's going to occur. We'll see if I'm right or wrong shortly.