(08-09-2017 06:30 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(08-09-2017 05:52 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The CAA is in A very precarious spot. It makes absolutely ZERO sense to have a round robin FCS conference from Boston to Charleston. It's just dumb.

In the short term the CAA needs to get into travel friendly divisions. Towson and the other 4 schools to the north need to add Stony Brook and tell Hofstra to suck it up while the southern schools need to add UNCG so the south will have perfect travel partners. Adding stony brook would give the CAA 6 full time football members again plus Richmond and Nova who are attached to full time CAA schools.

It actually makes perfect sense. Schools like Elon and College of Charleston recruit northeastern students (not just student athletes, but students).

You can recruit northeastern students without breaking the back of your athletic department

(08-07-2017 09:05 PM)panama Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 06:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 06:04 PM)panama Wrote:  Doh...

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What an articulate, thought provoking addition to the conversation.

It's a a silly thread. Anyone who knows anything about college football realizes that William and Mary isn't leaving the CAA. They are very comfortable where they are and Liberty going FBS isn't going to affect them in the least.

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Panama, it took us a few years but we finally agree on something 100%. Good job!

Liberty is a large, private, faith-based school with academics...well anyway...what they do has zippy to do with W&M. The Tribe is at home in the CAA and the PL is a poor option for us for numerous reasons.

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(08-08-2017 02:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(08-08-2017 02:05 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 07:02 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I know schools have to have somewhere to go, but if James Madison leaves the CAA, the CAA will have a bit of a problem on its hands.

Yup. It will tear apart that conference. Or, it will destroy CAAF.

I don't see it. The CAA survived the losses of VCU, ODU, George Mason and Georgia State from their all-sports roster and ODU, Georgia State and UMass from the football conference in the past five years. Losing JMU would obviously hurt and I don't think there's any reasonable options that would be an improvement or even a straight-across trade, but I think they'd be OK. Probably some combination of a football-only member (Monmouth?) and a non-football all-sports member (UNC Greensboro? High Point? UMBC?). Or maybe they finally give Hampton the rose. Worst-case scenario, they don't fill the spot and let it ride with nine all-sports and 11 football members for the near-term.

Do you all hate Richmond that much that nobody mentions them?

(08-09-2017 08:40 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(08-08-2017 02:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(08-08-2017 02:05 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 07:02 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I know schools have to have somewhere to go, but if James Madison leaves the CAA, the CAA will have a bit of a problem on its hands.

Yup. It will tear apart that conference. Or, it will destroy CAAF.

I don't see it. The CAA survived the losses of VCU, ODU, George Mason and Georgia State from their all-sports roster and ODU, Georgia State and UMass from the football conference in the past five years. Losing JMU would obviously hurt and I don't think there's any reasonable options that would be an improvement or even a straight-across trade, but I think they'd be OK. Probably some combination of a football-only member (Monmouth?) and a non-football all-sports member (UNC Greensboro? High Point? UMBC?). Or maybe they finally give Hampton the rose. Worst-case scenario, they don't fill the spot and let it ride with nine all-sports and 11 football members for the near-term.

Do you all hate Richmond that much that nobody mentions them?

Richmond is still around in the football side of things. The others that were mentioned are no longer members of any part of the CAA (unless there is an affiliate membership that I don't know about)

(08-08-2017 02:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(08-08-2017 02:05 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 07:02 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I know schools have to have somewhere to go, but if James Madison leaves the CAA, the CAA will have a bit of a problem on its hands.

Yup. It will tear apart that conference. Or, it will destroy CAAF.

Losing JMU would obviously hurt and I don't think there's any reasonable options that would be an improvement or even a straight-across trade, but I think they'd be OK.

Youngstown State as a football only in the CAA could replace James Madison and give you similar results.

Great minds, MSB.

Granted, we're trying to offload a geographic outlier that isn't a member of the MVC or Summit .... but hey!

(08-09-2017 09:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Great minds, MSB.

Granted, we're trying to offload a geographic outlier that isn't a member of the MVC or Summit .... but hey!

Might even be a better reason to offload the Pens:

MVC - Murray State, Southern Illinois, Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Indiana State
Summit - North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, Northern Colorado, Western Illinois

No affiliates necessary. Of course if the Summit splits then Youngstown State probably would make more sense as a football-only member of the MVC. This also gives both sides some flexibility if say, Milwaukee or Omaha were to start (or restart) their football program at some point down the road.

Richmond is not mentioned because Richmond is dead to us. They betrayed a trust:

http://articles.dailypress.com/2000-06-0...m-and-mary

(08-09-2017 10:04 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Might even be a better reason to offload the Pens:

MVC - Murray State, Southern Illinois, Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Indiana State
Summit - North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, Northern Colorado, Western Illinois

No affiliates necessary. Of course if the Summit splits then Youngstown State probably would make more sense as a football-only member of the MVC. This also gives both sides some flexibility if say, Milwaukee or Omaha were to start (or restart) their football program at some point down the road.

Would be interesting to see if/when Summit adds a 6th football school (NoCO and E ILL, being the most likely ... that's not to say that either is likely), if it would actually split football away from the MVFC. I think a better first step would be to create divisions, within the MVFC.

(08-10-2017 06:45 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Richmond is not mentioned because Richmond is dead to us. They betrayed a trust:

http://articles.dailypress.com/2000-06-0...m-and-mary

FWIW, I think CAA and CAAF couldn't be more different. The silliness of stuff like this in the CAA doesn't seem to cross over to CAAF. That dumb CAA policy that precluded programs from defecting schools (like Old Dominion) from participating in conference tournaments and getting AQ didn't follow into CAAF. Hofstra's pettiness can stop Stony Brook from getting a CAA invitation, but not CAAF.

It's a shame. I think CAAF's the one who's more in danger of any sizable shifts in the CAA. But, CAAF is the better half of that conference.

A Madison move, if it isn't Furman as a full replacement creates the associate issues. Yeah, Monmouth will do for football...Villanova won't want them. If you lose Villanova, maybe you start to trouble some of those in the AEast and URI bloc. Maybe you see Villanova AND Richmond considering Patriot (people keep ripping them for their stuffy policies; they've changed a lot in the last decade...don't discount it). Splitting Villanova from Delaware won't be fun. It will hurt UDel more.

CAA survives with or without Madison. It's more that you won't see schools "go back" to some of their old haunts while those conferences above them won't even give others a sniff. Like Hofstra and the A10. Just don't bother.

(08-10-2017 09:31 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-10-2017 06:45 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Richmond is not mentioned because Richmond is dead to us. They betrayed a trust:

http://articles.dailypress.com/2000-06-0...m-and-mary

FWIW, I think CAA and CAAF couldn't be more different. The silliness of stuff like this in the CAA doesn't seem to cross over to CAAF. That dumb CAA policy that precluded programs from defecting schools (like Old Dominion) from participating in conference tournaments and getting AQ didn't follow into CAAF. Hofstra's pettiness can stop Stony Brook from getting a CAA invitation, but not CAAF.

It's a shame. I think CAAF's the one who's more in danger of any sizable shifts in the CAA. But, CAAF is the better half of that conference.

A Madison move, if it isn't Furman as a full replacement creates the associate issues. Yeah, Monmouth will do for football...Villanova won't want them. If you lose Villanova, maybe you start to trouble some of those in the AEast and URI bloc. Maybe you see Villanova AND Richmond considering Patriot (people keep ripping them for their stuffy policies; they've changed a lot in the last decade...don't discount it). Splitting Villanova from Delaware won't be fun. It will hurt UDel more.

CAA survives with or without Madison. It's more that you won't see schools "go back" to some of their old haunts while those conferences above them won't even give others a sniff. Like Hofstra and the A10. Just don't bother.

Not by letter of the law, but CAAF by vote followed the CAA's policy and prevented ODU football from receiving their automatic FCS playoff berth in the Monarchs' final season in the conference. It turned out not to matter, but while it's not codified in the CAAF constitution, it seems likely that they would continue to choose to follow it.

As for CAAF's post-JMU future, if that ever comes to pass: Does CAAF even need to replace them? If JMU leaves, that brings CAAF to 11 teams, which is a bit unwieldy but far from unprecedented for them. It hurts from a quality perspective but it doesn't break up a geographic bloc (William & Mary would be unhappy, no doubt, but it sounds like the Patriot is a nonstarter and the Southern would still be a lesser conference than a JMU-less CAAF). Even if they lost two members, they could stay at 10 and do a round-robin. And if a 12th football school materializes, so much the better.

The CAA would fall to 9 with a JMU departure, which is a little more uncertain, but then they also have more options with non-football schools like UNC Greensboro, High Point and UMBC. Not sure how viable any of them are but the CAA would be a step up for them (plus UNCG kinda sticks out as a larger, northeastern public sore thumb in an increasingly smaller, private and south-facing SoCon).

Plus Hampton has wanted the CAA for some time. If they finally got the invite, they'd be happy for a long time, I bet.

What about W&M and Richmond back to the SoCon in football only? They have the history in the SoCon.

Simply a question of if they'd prefer to play those schools, and possibly have an easier time winning the conference (?) than playing the AEast schools, URI, Delaware, and Nova.


UNCG could make sense for the CAA non-football, but would Elon want to block them?

(08-10-2017 11:17 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  What about W&M and Richmond back to the SoCon in football only? They have the history in the SoCon.

Simply a question of if they'd prefer to play those schools, and possibly have an easier time winning the conference (?) than playing the AEast schools, URI, Delaware, and Nova.


UNCG could make sense for the CAA non-football, but would Elon want to block them?

While geography points Richmond to the south, they are culturally a Northeast private school that draws a large portion of their students from there. As a result, their arrangement of CAA football and A-10 everything else suits them fine; the only realistic options they'd find more appealing are the Big East and possibly Patriot football, though I think CAAF would have to take a severe beating to get them to that point.

William & Mary is less unlikely, but I'd say a longshot that only cashes out if, again, the CAA/CAAF absorb huge losses and there's significant concern about their viability.

I guess Elon could pitch a fit over UNCG, but they seemed to coexist in the SoCon and UNCG didn't block Elon's entrance there. Plus as the new kid on the block (and one that burned its bridges with the SoCon), I don't think Elon has much leverage here.

Someone mentioned VMI, but while that would make the old-line Richmond/W&M folks happy, they've been uncompetitive in the SoCon and for that matter, the Big South. I guess if things got truly dire they'd get a look, but I'd be surprised myself.

W&M and UR left the So Con in the 70s - along with East Carolina and shortly behind Virginia Tech and WVU. The SO Con today is still a nice conference - though was really more Mid Atlantic in the old W&M days - today it's moved deeper south (GA, AL, TN), not the best fit.

For W&M, already pointed this out, the current CAA strength is the Mid Atlantic core - W&M, UR, Towson, Delaware, Elon, JMU and Villanova. The furthest trip here for W&M is just over 4 hours to Villanova. All good rivalries with some history and the games sell tickets and interest. Secondly, Philadelphia is one of W&M's largest alumni bases outside Virginia.

This discussion is going in every direction except the one that W&M has established and chosen - the CAA is a great home for our athletics program - in terms of rivals, competition, peers, alumni interest and regionality. Nothing else comes really that close.

Well, the thread title would sort've dictate those discussion directions ..... but appreciate the viewpoint from W&M fans. Looks like even if JMU leaves, W&M is pretty well hunkered down.

I have kind of always wanted to see an America East football conference.

Albany
Maine
New Hampshire
Stony Brook

Add Central Connecticut to the America East for all-sports, throw in Rhode Island and Monmouth as football affiliates maybe Fordham. Solid northeast FCS league.

Elon is also a Northeast directed private school (Presbyterian), which is why they joined the CAA. They see themselves as peer to schools like Richmond Northeastern, Hoftsra, Drexel and UDel. The CAA move for Elon is similar in many respects as far as associations go to Davidson's move to the A-10. These higher end private schools really want the Boston to Philadelphia and DMV students and to be associated with those private schools and not with the less prestigious Southern schools (education being mostly a prestige marketing racket).

The ACC, A-10, and CAA all have similar focus (not counting FSU, Clemson, NC State and Louisville), where they are recruiting predominantly Northeast students and the DMV. This culture split is why I think the SoCon is now pretty safe form CAA raiding. There is not a members in the current SoCon with that Northeast focus anymore (Mercer and Furman play Men's lacrosse, which is perhaps an indicator).

I think many of the posters here do not consider the mission or focus of schools and instead look only at location. The trend in conferences has been toward more culturally homogeneous than geographically approximate (but they are when they can be like the Big West, MAC or AEC).

If there is ever going to be a big splash in the Mid-Majors, I would look for the MVC splitting, the private schools breaking off and trying to form their own A-10 type conference to get a second bid, not having the same budgetary concerns as the struggling public Midwestern schools, nor the albatross of FCS football. But that is off topic discussion, and not likely in the next three or four years (requires imagination that I do not see present in these schools; this would fit the trend toward cultural homogeneity).

Aside: why do Davidson and Elon recruit from the northeast?? Why would a kid from New York want to go to a small, private school in North Carolina that isn't anything special in terms of a name/reputation that would get you a big time job??

(08-10-2017 04:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Aside: why do Davidson and Elon recruit from the northeast?? Why would a kid from New York want to go to a small, private school in North Carolina that isn't anything special in terms of a name/reputation that would get you a big time job??

Davidson has a very good reputation, as well as a very loyal alumni network.

Forbes ranked it at #34 in the nation.

Elon is ranked top 150

And where they get students from:


From State Percentage
North Carolina 20%
Massachusetts 12%
Maryland 8%
Illinois 8%
New Jersey 6%
Virginia 6%
Pennsylvania 5%
Connecticut 4%
New York 4%
Florida 3%

(08-10-2017 04:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Aside: why do Davidson and Elon recruit from the northeast?? Why would a kid from New York want to go to a small, private school in North Carolina that isn't anything special in terms of a name/reputation that would get you a big time job??

In the US, outside of California and SeaTac, the strongest high school students with money and high achievement are along the Atlantic Coast, DMV, Philly, NJ, NYC, Connecticut and Boston. These are fully funded students who will go home after graduation and have high paying jobs and donate large amounts of money. In Willy Sutton fashion these school recruit this belt because they are "where the money was."