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Berkman or Bust
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-24-2017 09:57 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:43 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:20 AM)davidw Wrote:  
(07-23-2017 10:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  
(07-23-2017 09:20 PM)davidw Wrote:  Don't think Wayne can go after kids two years out, can he? Has to have an indication of SAT scores, if i'm not mistaken.

None of our competitors have to worry about that, of course.

Pretty sure Vanderbilt does.

Not really. They have this school of education that allows them to take kids without the normal entrance requirements for the rest of the student body, as I understand it. The Peabody School, I think it is.

And Rice athletes all have 2200+ on their SAT like the rest of the student body 03-lmfao

Not sure why you feel the need to make a statement like this.

Because he's acting like we can't admit student-athletes with lower grades/scores than the rest of the student body.

I never said our athletes were dumb.
07-24-2017 11:30 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-23-2017 09:20 PM)davidw Wrote:  Don't think Wayne can go after kids two years out, can he? Has to have an indication of SAT scores, if i'm not mistaken.

None of our competitors have to worry about that, of course.

Absolutely he can. But Wayne doesn't...Van Hook did the recruiting. He started going after those kids. Secured 2 of them very quickly. Now, of course, one is gone.

Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Michigan, and all the other academic/athletic schools go after young kids. Rice is no different. The difference has been the desire to go after them.
07-24-2017 03:44 PM
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davidw Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-24-2017 11:30 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:57 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:43 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:20 AM)davidw Wrote:  
(07-23-2017 10:00 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Pretty sure Vanderbilt does.

Not really. They have this school of education that allows them to take kids without the normal entrance requirements for the rest of the student body, as I understand it. The Peabody School, I think it is.

And Rice athletes all have 2200+ on their SAT like the rest of the student body 03-lmfao

Not sure why you feel the need to make a statement like this.

Because he's acting like we can't admit student-athletes with lower grades/scores than the rest of the student body.

I never said our athletes were dumb.

ok let me amend my statement - insert "most all of our competitors don't have to worry about that." Now you should be happy.

The Peabody school doesn't have the entrance requirements that Vandy U does, even tho it's an affiliated institution (they have a curriculum for teachers, I think). Where they get us is that baseball players can enroll there and get merit scholarships that they couldn't get if enrolled in Vandy regular degree plans.

I think this has been discussed here a number of times.
07-24-2017 10:15 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-24-2017 10:15 PM)davidw Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 11:30 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:57 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:43 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 09:20 AM)davidw Wrote:  Not really. They have this school of education that allows them to take kids without the normal entrance requirements for the rest of the student body, as I understand it. The Peabody School, I think it is.

And Rice athletes all have 2200+ on their SAT like the rest of the student body 03-lmfao

Not sure why you feel the need to make a statement like this.

Because he's acting like we can't admit student-athletes with lower grades/scores than the rest of the student body.

I never said our athletes were dumb.

ok let me amend my statement - insert "most all of our competitors don't have to worry about that." Now you should be happy.

The Peabody school doesn't have the entrance requirements that Vandy U does, even tho it's an affiliated institution (they have a curriculum for teachers, I think). Where they get us is that baseball players can enroll there and get merit scholarships that they couldn't get if enrolled in Vandy regular degree plans.

I think this has been discussed here a number of times.

It's also been debunked a number of times. There is no back door into Vandy, there is no slush fund of easy merit scholarships that they hand out to non-rev athletes.

For your supposition to be true, and in order not to be violating NCAA rules, Vandy would have to be admitting boatloads of nonathletes with 1100-1200 SATs (along with the athletes, who generally have those same scores), and giving them merit scholarships, too. Spoiler alert: they're not.

You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.
07-25-2017 08:51 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
07-25-2017 09:02 AM
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Eat More Vole Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.

Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?
07-25-2017 09:41 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 09:41 AM)Eat More Vole Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.

Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that Vandy has not only very significantly reduced the academic requirements for student-athletes, but have established several incremental scholarships that allow them to greatly augment their 11.7 allotted baseball scholarships? I've heard from several sources that well over half of Vandy players are on full scholarship.

Furthermore, Vandy, UNC and UVA all have rosters heavily weighted with players from the northeast, who find those schools and locals (Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte) much closer and more attractive than Houston.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2017 10:38 AM by waltgreenberg.)
07-25-2017 10:27 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Berkman or Bust
I am telling you from experience....the only difference between Vandy/Stanford vs Rice when it concerns going after younger (better) players is simply the desire to do so. AGAIN, this was my point on VH.

HE CHANGED THAT.

And we lost him. So now what are we left with? Currently 2 coaches....
07-25-2017 03:16 PM
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Eat More Vole Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Berkman or Bust
You can go after younger players all you want. If they have no interest in coming, it doesn't do any good.

And I'm sure VH isn't the only guy in the country who can go after younger players. If we couple that desire with the ability to develop hitters, we can make a huge step up.
07-25-2017 04:07 PM
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critten Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Berkman or Bust
why is there a current delay in getting some other coaches? I doubt we can swipe a prized assistant as fall approaches...unless we are just going to settle for what is left over.
07-25-2017 04:14 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 04:14 PM)critten Wrote:  why is there a current delay in getting some other coaches? I doubt we can swipe a prized assistant as fall approaches...unless we are just going to settle for what is left over.

As has been stated in other threads, JK needs to resolve the situation with The OG and his contract before we have any chance of hiring a quality assistant. Either he gets an extension (which IMO would be the wrong move) or it's announced that next year is his swan song, and we actively search for a "coach in waiting", who would get to hire the volunteer assistant. Any other outcome would be disastrous with regards to both recruiting, continuity and our ability to fill the vacant assistant and volunteer coaching positions.

This needs to be resolved within the next 2 - 3 weeks at the very latest.
07-25-2017 04:23 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 04:23 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 04:14 PM)critten Wrote:  why is there a current delay in getting some other coaches? I doubt we can swipe a prized assistant as fall approaches...unless we are just going to settle for what is left over.

As has been stated in other threads, JK needs to resolve the situation with The OG and his contract before we have any chance of hiring a quality assistant. Either he gets an extension (which IMO would be the wrong move) or it's announced that next year is his swan song, and we actively search for a "coach in waiting", who would get to hire the volunteer assistant. Any other outcome would be disastrous with regards to both recruiting, continuity and our ability to fill the vacant assistant and volunteer coaching positions.

This needs to be resolved within the next 2 - 3 weeks at the very latest.

You are correct it needs to be resolved asap. I am not going to hold my breath for it though.
07-25-2017 06:29 PM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Berkman or Bust
Extremely important time right now. Kids are committing left and right because it's the end of the summer travel ball season. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone who's actually out there recruiting unless Coach Pope is having to do it all himself. JK needs to get in gear asap. Losing basically a summer's worth of recruiting can really hurt a program.
07-25-2017 07:52 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-25-2017 10:27 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 09:41 AM)Eat More Vole Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.

Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that Vandy has not only very significantly reduced the academic requirements for student-athletes, but have established several incremental scholarships that allow them to greatly augment their 11.7 allotted baseball scholarships? I've heard from several sources that well over half of Vandy players are on full scholarship.

Furthermore, Vandy, UNC and UVA all have rosters heavily weighted with players from the northeast, who find those schools and locals (Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte) much closer and more attractive than Houston.

There are 2 ways to be on or close to full scholarship as a baseball player and Rice isn't prohibited from doing either of them. One is piggybacking a merit scholarship onto a partial baseball scholarship, which is fine as long as the merit scholarship is generally available to nonathletes and is not given for athletic reasons, and the other is taking need-based financial aid only and walking on. (Technically there is a 3rd way -- getting 1 of the 11.7 baseball full rides all to oneself - but that is rarely done.)

To the extent Vandy is doing these things and Rice isn't, we can file that right under "greater commitment to athletics as an institution" as I said in my post. Vandy has scholarships with criteria that lo and behold baseball players can qualify for without breaking NCAA rules? Rice could do this as well. Why don't we? Lack of commitment to athletics, lack of leadership, and a general contentment, demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years, with atrophying away to a small-time athletic program.

Vandy is letting athletes in with lower standards than Rice does? (People here have said this about Duke, Northwestern, and Stanford as well.) Well, it's not hurting these schools in the rankings, so why in the world are we maintaining (if we are; I doubt it personally) higher standards than these schools? What benefit could there possibly be? Who would possibly stand in the way of aligning our athletic admission standards with these schools?

Whatever advantages Vandy and other peer schools may have over Rice Baseball and other Rice sports, Rice University is choosing to let those persist. Which makes it suck to be a fan of Rice sports.
07-26-2017 11:43 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-26-2017 11:43 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 10:27 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 09:41 AM)Eat More Vole Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.

Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that Vandy has not only very significantly reduced the academic requirements for student-athletes, but have established several incremental scholarships that allow them to greatly augment their 11.7 allotted baseball scholarships? I've heard from several sources that well over half of Vandy players are on full scholarship.

Furthermore, Vandy, UNC and UVA all have rosters heavily weighted with players from the northeast, who find those schools and locals (Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte) much closer and more attractive than Houston.

There are 2 ways to be on or close to full scholarship as a baseball player and Rice isn't prohibited from doing either of them. One is piggybacking a merit scholarship onto a partial baseball scholarship, which is fine as long as the merit scholarship is generally available to nonathletes and is not given for athletic reasons, and the other is taking need-based financial aid only and walking on. (Technically there is a 3rd way -- getting 1 of the 11.7 baseball full rides all to oneself - but that is rarely done.)

To the extent Vandy is doing these things and Rice isn't, we can file that right under "greater commitment to athletics as an institution" as I said in my post. Vandy has scholarships with criteria that lo and behold baseball players can qualify for without breaking NCAA rules? Rice could do this as well. Why don't we? Lack of commitment to athletics, lack of leadership, and a general contentment, demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years, with atrophying away to a small-time athletic program.

Vandy is letting athletes in with lower standards than Rice does? (People here have said this about Duke, Northwestern, and Stanford as well.) Well, it's not hurting these schools in the rankings, so why in the world are we maintaining (if we are; I doubt it personally) higher standards than these schools? What benefit could there possibly be? Who would possibly stand in the way of aligning our athletic admission standards with these schools?

Whatever advantages Vandy and other peer schools may have over Rice Baseball and other Rice sports, Rice University is choosing to let those persist. Which makes it suck to be a fan of Rice sports.

Perfectly said.
07-26-2017 11:47 AM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-26-2017 11:47 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  
(07-26-2017 11:43 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 10:27 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 09:41 AM)Eat More Vole Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 08:51 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  You want to know what Vandy's advantage over Rice is? They belong to a real conference and have a greater commitment to athletics as an institution.

Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that Vandy has not only very significantly reduced the academic requirements for student-athletes, but have established several incremental scholarships that allow them to greatly augment their 11.7 allotted baseball scholarships? I've heard from several sources that well over half of Vandy players are on full scholarship.

Furthermore, Vandy, UNC and UVA all have rosters heavily weighted with players from the northeast, who find those schools and locals (Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte) much closer and more attractive than Houston.

There are 2 ways to be on or close to full scholarship as a baseball player and Rice isn't prohibited from doing either of them. One is piggybacking a merit scholarship onto a partial baseball scholarship, which is fine as long as the merit scholarship is generally available to nonathletes and is not given for athletic reasons, and the other is taking need-based financial aid only and walking on. (Technically there is a 3rd way -- getting 1 of the 11.7 baseball full rides all to oneself - but that is rarely done.)

To the extent Vandy is doing these things and Rice isn't, we can file that right under "greater commitment to athletics as an institution" as I said in my post. Vandy has scholarships with criteria that lo and behold baseball players can qualify for without breaking NCAA rules? Rice could do this as well. Why don't we? Lack of commitment to athletics, lack of leadership, and a general contentment, demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years, with atrophying away to a small-time athletic program.

Vandy is letting athletes in with lower standards than Rice does? (People here have said this about Duke, Northwestern, and Stanford as well.) Well, it's not hurting these schools in the rankings, so why in the world are we maintaining (if we are; I doubt it personally) higher standards than these schools? What benefit could there possibly be? Who would possibly stand in the way of aligning our athletic admission standards with these schools?

Whatever advantages Vandy and other peer schools may have over Rice Baseball and other Rice sports, Rice University is choosing to let those persist. Which makes it suck to be a fan of Rice sports.

Perfectly said.

This needs to b e crafted into a question and submitted to Ask the AD.
07-26-2017 12:53 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-26-2017 11:43 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  ...demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years...

Your time-scale is a bit off. :)
07-26-2017 01:41 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-26-2017 01:41 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(07-26-2017 11:43 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  ...demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years...

Your time-scale is a bit off. :)

Yes, was originally going to say 25+ (I would date it from Arkansas's departure in 1990/91 which should have been the canary in the coal mine) and changed it to avoid looking like I'd somehow forgotten that we did win our one and only national championship in that span.

But unfortunately I'm afraid in the end 2003 is akin to a goal against the run of play.
07-26-2017 02:06 PM
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HawaiiOwl Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Berkman or Bust
(07-26-2017 12:53 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(07-26-2017 11:47 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  
(07-26-2017 11:43 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 10:27 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(07-25-2017 09:41 AM)Eat More Vole Wrote:  Prospective student-athletes see Vandy as a place where you can go and win and not a program in decline?

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that Vandy has not only very significantly reduced the academic requirements for student-athletes, but have established several incremental scholarships that allow them to greatly augment their 11.7 allotted baseball scholarships? I've heard from several sources that well over half of Vandy players are on full scholarship.

Furthermore, Vandy, UNC and UVA all have rosters heavily weighted with players from the northeast, who find those schools and locals (Nashville, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte) much closer and more attractive than Houston.

There are 2 ways to be on or close to full scholarship as a baseball player and Rice isn't prohibited from doing either of them. One is piggybacking a merit scholarship onto a partial baseball scholarship, which is fine as long as the merit scholarship is generally available to nonathletes and is not given for athletic reasons, and the other is taking need-based financial aid only and walking on. (Technically there is a 3rd way -- getting 1 of the 11.7 baseball full rides all to oneself - but that is rarely done.)

To the extent Vandy is doing these things and Rice isn't, we can file that right under "greater commitment to athletics as an institution" as I said in my post. Vandy has scholarships with criteria that lo and behold baseball players can qualify for without breaking NCAA rules? Rice could do this as well. Why don't we? Lack of commitment to athletics, lack of leadership, and a general contentment, demonstrated vividly over the past 10+ years, with atrophying away to a small-time athletic program.

Vandy is letting athletes in with lower standards than Rice does? (People here have said this about Duke, Northwestern, and Stanford as well.) Well, it's not hurting these schools in the rankings, so why in the world are we maintaining (if we are; I doubt it personally) higher standards than these schools? What benefit could there possibly be? Who would possibly stand in the way of aligning our athletic admission standards with these schools?

Whatever advantages Vandy and other peer schools may have over Rice Baseball and other Rice sports, Rice University is choosing to let those persist. Which makes it suck to be a fan of Rice sports.

Perfectly said.

This needs to b e crafted into a question and submitted to Ask the AD.
You are spot on. This "unconventional wisdom" baloney holds no water . No one disparages Stanford because of their commitment to athletics. They actually benefit from the exposure, not only at the collegiate level, but especially during the summer olympics. They also have successful athletes donating back to the university from their successes at the next level. Unfortunately, any jump towards the P% is likely ~ a $200 million check
As far as the current baseball coaching situation, the flight of assistants may actually be signalling the OG's departure . As I have stated before ,the new coach will select his own staff, so it may be that behind-the scene action is occurring, and the assistants realize they likely will not have a job( what am I smoking?)
07-26-2017 04:04 PM
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kinderowl Offline
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Post: #60
Berkman or Bust
As of yesterday, there was no change on the topic of the standoff.
07-26-2017 04:42 PM
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