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Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
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ken d Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 03:45 AM)micahandme Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 12:34 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(07-15-2017 09:43 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  No matter what expansion happens, the power schools and CFP will say top 8 teams not conference champions. Thus ensuring they don't have to take a G5 champ and keeping the money. Just the reality of the situation.


Even as a G5 fan, I'm afraid you're right unless the G5 can pull off what Scott Cowen and the other G5 presidents pulled off to get the G5 into BCS bowls. That would definitely be the equalizer.

Had a brainstorm while contemplating the college football season vs the college basketball season. NCAA men's basketball has like a preseason NIT, and a lot of tournaments and conference challenge tournaments. If the G5 could do a football equivalent of this, while it would not necessarily guarantee the G5 a spot of at the CFP table, it would make G5 appearances a lot more common, IMO. Basically this, take Calhoun's idea, and instead of doing it at the end of the year, do it at the beginning. I'm sure some wouldn't go for it for various reasons, but I think at the same time, some teams would go for it, and it would bolster strength of schedule for those G5 challengers.

Not a bad idea, but it doesn't feasibly fit into the CFB scheduling model. If G5's want to get aggressive, they need to keep scheduling P5 teams as "away only" paycheck games. Houston--for example--with Oklahoma and Louisville on the schedule last year. Boise State has been shooting for this for the past decade. They need these SOS benchmarks regularly. They can't schedule FCS schools or non-conference G5 games. They need ALL P5 OOC games (as much as possible).

If they really want to be considered "equal"--as I hear all of you small school guys around clambering for--than they need to schedule UP...way UP. No excuses for beating 1 P5 school and then running the table against your weaker G5 counterparts and expecting a spot at the table (looking at you Western Michigan/Marshall/etc.)

Since I'm not in the room, as it were, when schools like Boise, Houston et al are negotiating their OOC schedules, I can't answer an important question.

Are those schools trying to arrange a P5 only non-conference schedule, and striking out, or are they still trying to include more winnable G5 and FCS games in addition to a couple of challenges?

I agree that the G5 schools that want a seat at the table have to play anybody, anywhere, even if that means only 5 or 6 home games until they have established themselves as attractive (to TV partners) OOC opponents for the P5.
07-18-2017 02:00 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 10:53 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  MM,

In my opinion, that list should be retooled to remove games for teams that are currently in the P5 (Utah and TCU) and add games for teams that are current in the G5 (Cincy). That would very quickly change the composition of your list.

That basically leaves you with a "Meh" win over Arizona, a "Good for you, but hardly the best FL St team we've ever seen" win, and then the legendary Boise win over Adrian Peterson's 2006 OU team that will be replayed forever.

It is pointless to "retool" the for changes you suggest because at the time of the games TCU & Utah were operating with G5 resources and talent, while Cincy, UCF, and UCONN were operating with Big East resources and talent. That is one of the main reasons to do the comparison.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 02:42 PM by MAD MACGYVER.)
07-18-2017 02:40 PM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
If there were separate P5 and G5 championships, it'd be just a matter of time before a curious public would clamor for a game between the two champions to determine which is really the very best. Remember the NFL and its disdain for the upstart AFL?
07-18-2017 02:52 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
But in those days, the gaps were far smaller than today.
07-18-2017 02:54 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 02:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  But in those days, the gaps were far smaller than today.

Let us not delude ourselves about resource differences between P5 and G5; they have always been substantial. You can see the difference for yourself [HERE] just click on a school and it will have the finances back to 2005.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 03:15 PM by MAD MACGYVER.)
07-18-2017 03:14 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
W Michigan offered Fleck a larger contract than Minnesota did to stay. So I guess that game comes off the list. Same with Houston, offered Herman quite a load of cash to stay.

Very little doubt that Utah and TCU were spending the same on football as the bottom of the current P5 schools were in the late 00's.


Any way you slice it, your list gets diminished.
07-18-2017 03:20 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 03:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  W Michigan offered Fleck a larger contract than Minnesota did to stay. So I guess that game comes off the list. Same with Houston, offered Herman quite a load of cash to stay.

Very little doubt that Utah and TCU were spending the same on football as the bottom of the current P5 schools were in the late 00's.


Any way you slice it, your list gets diminished.

You assertion is without merit. The comparison is G5 v P5 in BCS/NY6 games as a measure if G5 teams could reasonably compete in CFP games despite the resource and talent differential. The fact that WMU made a desperate move to keep Fleck does not remove the fact that Minnesota had $113M in revenue in comparison to WMU's $24.2M. WMU was simply willing to allocate a larger percentage of its available resources to their football HC than Minnesota was.
07-18-2017 04:00 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 02:00 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 03:45 AM)micahandme Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 12:34 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(07-15-2017 09:43 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  No matter what expansion happens, the power schools and CFP will say top 8 teams not conference champions. Thus ensuring they don't have to take a G5 champ and keeping the money. Just the reality of the situation.


Even as a G5 fan, I'm afraid you're right unless the G5 can pull off what Scott Cowen and the other G5 presidents pulled off to get the G5 into BCS bowls. That would definitely be the equalizer.

Had a brainstorm while contemplating the college football season vs the college basketball season. NCAA men's basketball has like a preseason NIT, and a lot of tournaments and conference challenge tournaments. If the G5 could do a football equivalent of this, while it would not necessarily guarantee the G5 a spot of at the CFP table, it would make G5 appearances a lot more common, IMO. Basically this, take Calhoun's idea, and instead of doing it at the end of the year, do it at the beginning. I'm sure some wouldn't go for it for various reasons, but I think at the same time, some teams would go for it, and it would bolster strength of schedule for those G5 challengers.

Not a bad idea, but it doesn't feasibly fit into the CFB scheduling model. If G5's want to get aggressive, they need to keep scheduling P5 teams as "away only" paycheck games. Houston--for example--with Oklahoma and Louisville on the schedule last year. Boise State has been shooting for this for the past decade. They need these SOS benchmarks regularly. They can't schedule FCS schools or non-conference G5 games. They need ALL P5 OOC games (as much as possible).

If they really want to be considered "equal"--as I hear all of you small school guys around clambering for--than they need to schedule UP...way UP. No excuses for beating 1 P5 school and then running the table against your weaker G5 counterparts and expecting a spot at the table (looking at you Western Michigan/Marshall/etc.)

Since I'm not in the room, as it were, when schools like Boise, Houston et al are negotiating their OOC schedules, I can't answer an important question.

Are those schools trying to arrange a P5 only non-conference schedule, and striking out, or are they still trying to include more winnable G5 and FCS games in addition to a couple of challenges?

I agree that the G5 schools that want a seat at the table have to play anybody, anywhere, even if that means only 5 or 6 home games until they have established themselves as attractive (to TV partners) OOC opponents for the P5.

It would be very difficult (if not impossible) for most any G5 to create a 4 game P5 home-and-home OOC schedule. There just aren't enough P5 vs G5 opportunities to go around.
07-18-2017 04:01 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
The list is for football ... but now you want to pretend that the expenses from the whole athletic dept are what matter, rather than football expenses. That is without merit!
07-18-2017 04:02 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 04:02 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The list is for football ... but now you want to pretend that the expenses from the whole athletic dept are what matter, rather than football expenses. That is without merit!

Now you are being intentionally obtuse. As if removing Olympic sports revenue would automagically put the Big Ten and the MAC, or any G5 conference on equal revenue footing.
07-18-2017 04:12 PM
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AppManDG Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-17-2017 10:29 PM)goodknightfl Wrote:  A G4 playoff idea is great. Champ from MWC, Cusa, Mac, and Belt seeded 1 to 4.

Everyone else fills the needed spots in their conf bowl games.

Nice try. At the end of the day the AAC is STILL a part of the G5 and no phony balony, good time, rock n roll, cheesy ad campaign is going to change that.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 04:38 PM by AppManDG.)
07-18-2017 04:36 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
I gave you tangible, factual examples of W Michigan and Houston spending more on football than low level P5 schools and you ignore it, because it doesn't suit your agenda.
07-18-2017 04:38 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 04:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I gave you tangible, factual examples of W Michigan and Houston spending more on football than low level P5 schools and you ignore it, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

I did not ignore it. Spending is NOT revenue. And overall, short term spending bursts are not surprising especially for G5 programs that have high aspirations, but they cannot and do not consistently spend more than a P5 programs, period. For instance, Colorado State just spent ~$250M for a new on-campus stadium because they want to position themselves to get into the Big12, and Houston has outspent its revenue stream for the same purpose, but they cannot and will not be able to sustain that level of spending because their revenue streams (donors, TV, ticket sales, merchandise, etc.) are much smaller in comparison to the P5. But the fact remains that REVENUE for the P5 is well above the G5, and as a result, on average, P5 coaching talent, player talent, and facilities are of superior quality than G5 programs.

Again, the disparity of these factors is what's at the heart of the debate between the P5 and G5 in regards to an extended playoff. Namely, can low resource/revenue/talent schools consistently compete with the P5 in the CFP? And according to the G5 v P5 numbers in BCS/NY6 games, it indicates that there is a good reason to consider superior G5 programs as they are 6-3 vs P5 in those games (at the time of the game).
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 05:10 PM by MAD MACGYVER.)
07-18-2017 05:07 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
Again, you want to pretend that dept-wide revenue is what makes a football team good. Texas proves that is laughably false.

It's spending on football that ultimately correlates to football strength. And Utah, TCU, Houston, and (after the fact) even W Michigan were spending as much on football as the lowest P5. That disproves your argument.
07-18-2017 05:49 PM
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MAD MACGYVER Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 05:49 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Again, you want to pretend that dept-wide revenue is what makes a football team good. Texas proves that is laughably false.

It's spending on football that ultimately correlates to football strength. And Utah, TCU, Houston, and (after the fact) even W Michigan were spending as much on football as the lowest P5. That disproves your argument.

You act as if the lion's share of an athletic department's revenue is not derived from football. Utah, and TCU have been P5 since 2011 & 2012 respectively, and TCU is a private school so it does not divulge its finances.

The fact that some P5 schools (a very small minority of the P5) do not spend as much as a couple of G5 schools does not prove me false. As an objective fact, on average, taken as a whole group, e.g. P5 vs G5, the P5 has more revenue, and has more resources to divert toward football success. Texas is interesting because they have struggled despite their revenue, but nearly every top-flight P5 program has had rough patches, that is a part of the ebb and flow of success.

G5 programs have to be much more selective in how they use their resources, and on occasion, they may have spikes in their spending, but these are not sustained, and not to the level of most P5 programs.
07-18-2017 06:09 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
It only had to be proven that those top G5 are on the level with the bottom P5, not the whole P5 average or the top P5.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 06:56 PM by MplsBison.)
07-18-2017 06:56 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 05:07 PM)MAD MACGYVER Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 04:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I gave you tangible, factual examples of W Michigan and Houston spending more on football than low level P5 schools and you ignore it, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

I did not ignore it. Spending is NOT revenue. And overall, short term spending bursts are not surprising especially for G5 programs that have high aspirations, but they cannot and do not consistently spend more than a P5 programs, period. For instance, Colorado State just spent ~$250M for a new on-campus stadium because they want to position themselves to get into the Big12, and Houston has outspent its revenue stream for the same purpose, but they cannot and will not be able to sustain that level of spending because their revenue streams (donors, TV, ticket sales, merchandise, etc.) are much smaller in comparison to the P5. But the fact remains that REVENUE for the P5 is well above the G5, and as a result, on average, P5 coaching talent, player talent, and facilities are of superior quality than G5 programs.

Again, the disparity of these factors is what's at the heart of the debate between the P5 and G5 in regards to an extended playoff. Namely, can low resource/revenue/talent schools consistently compete with the P5 in the CFP? And according to the G5 v P5 numbers in BCS/NY6 games, it indicates that there is a good reason to consider superior G5 programs as they are 6-3 vs P5 in those games (at the time of the game).

Of course they can compete---because while money certainly helps---the 85 scholarship limit is a tremendous equalizer. The P5 get first pick--- but there is still plenty of talent to build a team---especially for teams in good recruiting areas.
07-18-2017 07:08 PM
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JHS55 Online
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Post: #58
Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
Mad Mac, you seem to be losing your argument
You say consistency is key to being a p5er, well if that's the case then no team is a p5er
It's guys like you that want to slam the door shut on a school that wants to try to get a better program, you want a cartel, you seem to think that TV will never pay a new team that kicks ass
Let's take a look at a few p5 teams of today that were not historic but tryed to play at top level and did
Miami, came from nowhere or you could say a G5 level and now has many national championships in a twenty year period, but what was going on before that ? If Miami was in a G5 conference 30 years ago with the way it is today they would never have been able to build up to the level they did, so please just tell me your ok with that.
Florida st, same thing but with the system in place now any team outside the p5 can not no matter how much they my try, so mad Mac, you should be very happy, it's guys like you that love the fact that half the FBS college football schools be forced out of fair competition
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 07:49 PM by JHS55.)
07-18-2017 07:40 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
(07-18-2017 06:56 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  It only had to be proven that those top G5 are on the level with the bottom P5, not the whole P5 average or the top P5.

But that is the problem: the lower p5 don't want to play the top G5, claiming that G5 has everything to gain, and they have everything to lose.
07-18-2017 08:00 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Air Force Coach Troy Calhoun Floats G5 Playoff Idea
Why don't we just say the following?

In the three years of the CFP, the G5 are 2-1, and could've easily been 3-0 and for all intents and purposes, morally are 3-0, against the P5 in the Access Bowl games. One each from the top three G5 conferences (arguably) got a crack, and all three performed very well. Boise beat Arizona, Houston beat Florida St, and W Michigan morally beat Wisconsin.

That's darn good. What's wrong with just saying that? Why do you need more?
07-18-2017 09:13 PM
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