(07-15-2017 08:16 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:35 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  Pray that you don't make a mistake when hiring a coach/staff, cause that's all it takes to cause things to unravel. I'm hoping we've made the correct decisions to right the ship a bit.

This right here has been the biggest and most important difference between the GS and App State. Not recruiting, fan support, facilities, or trophies.

App has just been better in the front office and hasn't made the missteps our administration has. To be fair, it doesn't help that App State has made one coaching hire so far this century (and had an obvious candidate) and GS has made 6.

The other guy has been telling me how great it's been since 2010, but now you're saying ya'll have made misteps.

(07-15-2017 09:10 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:35 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 12:03 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 11:09 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-14-2017 07:34 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Navy just scored again.

I think Liberty did too.

Yes they did, but let us have a little clarity here. App was a struggling 1-4 team whose win came over powerhouse, non-scholarship FCS Campbell. Playing mostly freshmen and sophomores we miss a 32 yard FG to win in regulation then loseto the Flames in OT. LIberty goes on to become a 9-4 FCS playoff team. Ga Southern was 8-2 (at the time of the Navy game) with narrow losses to 2 ACC teams and on their way to a conference championship. The in the conversation for the Access Bowl team gets shelled - no pun intended - by 33 to a 4-5 (again at the time of the game) Navy team. If you think that's a fair comparison, OK.

But since then....
App goes 27-5 with 3 loses to top ten P5 teams, a conference champion and a Troy team that was ranked the week after beating us. During that time the Apps win 2 bowl games and a conference champioship. Ga Southern on the other hand, goes 15-11 with a bowl win and the afore mentioned conference championship, BUT two loses to a Ga State team with a combined record of 9-16 and twice to the much hated and dispised Mountaineers by a combined score of 65-13.

I'll gladly accept the Liberty loss for what has been accomplished since. Do you say the same? Huhhhh????

Yes Georgia Southern was in the conversation in 2014. The Navy game did also indeed stop all the conversation as well. In any case, there wouldn't have been a Sun Belt candidate that year anyway since we won the conference and you have to win the conference to TRULY be in the conversation. That's what happened to Boise in 2015 when it became obvious they wouldn't make the MWC championship game.

I'd take Georgia Southern 2010-2015 all day every day. (Although honestly, you couldn't PAY me to be an App fan.)

As a program, Georgia Southern achieved much more than App did in that entire span. Accomplishments include: 3 straight semifinal runs in the FCS playoffs, 2 Southern Conference championships, win over an SEC team, undefeated record in Sun Belt also making us the first team to transition into FBS and go undefeated in conference play in the first year, 1 Sun Belt championship, bowl win in first year of eligibility.

Even looking at just time in FBS, the only thing I would change is not hiring Summers last year. Prior to the 2016 season, the only notable achievement you had that we hadn't equaled or bested was a 10 win season. We had both won a bowl game in our first year eligible, but we had already torn through the conference undefeated and won a title. The difference is one bad year in 2016.

Pray that you don't make a mistake when hiring a coach/staff, cause that's all it takes to cause things to unravel. I'm hoping we've made the correct decisions to right the ship a bit.

Yet with all that success you were 2-5 vs App. App fans didn't use the parting of ways with Jerry Moore as an excuse for our terrible 13 season and the first part of 14. Yea, you guys kicked us around pretty good in '14 when we were playing a bunch of young guys. I just wish that game would have been later in the season. You can use the bad coaching hire for last year, but what about two years ago when we thumped your 9-4 bowl winning team with 13 (14 counting the OL transfer that started 12 games the previous year at UAB) returning starters? Your AD actually offered the job to a good friend of mine before Fritz took it.

I notice how in the years we achieved more, you only want to talk about how you managed to beat us. Losing to you in those years sucked yes, however we accomplished quite a bit. Honestly, we were still ahead at the end of 2015. We had the exact same record as FBS programs with us having an edge in achievements.

And it's not an excuse for what happened last year, it's the truth. That same class of seniors had achieved quite a bit coming into the 2016 season and our RB was on pace to break an NCAA all division record in YPC. Enter the calamity that was last season.

It's just a reality. Poor coaching destroyed our 2016 season. And it wasn't just playcalling....it started in January because our S&C was ****. We looked as week as App's OL did in 2011 when you had **** for OL coaching. When you have a preseason all conference OL look totally different than he has the last 2 seasons in his senior year, there's a larger issue. It's just a good time for App fans to enjoy us at a low point and talk about how much better they think they are over us. I think quite a few conference fans were surprised with just how bad our staff was. stAte alone was amazed I'm sure.

However, I'm sure I could go back and look during 2013 and some of 2014 and find plenty of talk about how Jerry Moore had cost the team at that point. There was LOTS of discussion about how his lack of OL recruitment and development had seriously affected your team (and btw I agree, ya'll have had some true struggles with that), to the point where I think the effect is still rippling today. When you have to point to a single OL injury being the reason your offense stopped dead in its tracks against stAte.....would that be a case of making excuses?

(07-15-2017 10:47 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 09:10 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:35 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 12:03 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 11:09 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  I think Liberty did too.

Yes they did, but let us have a little clarity here. App was a struggling 1-4 team whose win came over powerhouse, non-scholarship FCS Campbell. Playing mostly freshmen and sophomores we miss a 32 yard FG to win in regulation then loseto the Flames in OT. LIberty goes on to become a 9-4 FCS playoff team. Ga Southern was 8-2 (at the time of the Navy game) with narrow losses to 2 ACC teams and on their way to a conference championship. The in the conversation for the Access Bowl team gets shelled - no pun intended - by 33 to a 4-5 (again at the time of the game) Navy team. If you think that's a fair comparison, OK.

But since then....
App goes 27-5 with 3 loses to top ten P5 teams, a conference champion and a Troy team that was ranked the week after beating us. During that time the Apps win 2 bowl games and a conference champioship. Ga Southern on the other hand, goes 15-11 with a bowl win and the afore mentioned conference championship, BUT two loses to a Ga State team with a combined record of 9-16 and twice to the much hated and dispised Mountaineers by a combined score of 65-13.

I'll gladly accept the Liberty loss for what has been accomplished since. Do you say the same? Huhhhh????

Yes Georgia Southern was in the conversation in 2014. The Navy game did also indeed stop all the conversation as well. In any case, there wouldn't have been a Sun Belt candidate that year anyway since we won the conference and you have to win the conference to TRULY be in the conversation. That's what happened to Boise in 2015 when it became obvious they wouldn't make the MWC championship game.

I'd take Georgia Southern 2010-2015 all day every day. (Although honestly, you couldn't PAY me to be an App fan.)

As a program, Georgia Southern achieved much more than App did in that entire span. Accomplishments include: 3 straight semifinal runs in the FCS playoffs, 2 Southern Conference championships, win over an SEC team, undefeated record in Sun Belt also making us the first team to transition into FBS and go undefeated in conference play in the first year, 1 Sun Belt championship, bowl win in first year of eligibility.

Even looking at just time in FBS, the only thing I would change is not hiring Summers last year. Prior to the 2016 season, the only notable achievement you had that we hadn't equaled or bested was a 10 win season. We had both won a bowl game in our first year eligible, but we had already torn through the conference undefeated and won a title. The difference is one bad year in 2016.

Pray that you don't make a mistake when hiring a coach/staff, cause that's all it takes to cause things to unravel. I'm hoping we've made the correct decisions to right the ship a bit.

Yet with all that success you were 2-5 vs App. App fans didn't use the parting of ways with Jerry Moore as an excuse for our terrible 13 season and the first part of 14. Yea, you guys kicked us around pretty good in '14 when we were playing a bunch of young guys. I just wish that game would have been later in the season. You can use the bad coaching hire for last year, but what about two years ago when we thumped your 9-4 bowl winning team with 13 (14 counting the OL transfer that started 12 games the previous year at UAB) returning starters? Your AD actually offered the job to a good friend of mine before Fritz took it.

I notice how in the years we achieved more, you only want to talk about how you managed to beat us. Losing to you in those years sucked yes, however we accomplished quite a bit. Honestly, we were still ahead at the end of 2015. We had the exact same record as FBS programs with us having an edge in achievements.

And it's not an excuse for what happened last year, it's the truth. That same class of seniors had achieved quite a bit coming into the 2016 season and our RB was on pace to break an NCAA all division record in YPC. Enter the calamity that was last season.

It's just a reality. Poor coaching destroyed our 2016 season. And it wasn't just playcalling....it started in January because our S&C was ****. We looked as week as App's OL did in 2011 when you had **** for OL coaching. When you have a preseason all conference OL look totally different than he has the last 2 seasons in his senior year, there's a larger issue. It's just a good time for App fans to enjoy us at a low point and talk about how much better they think they are over us. I think quite a few conference fans were surprised with just how bad our staff was. stAte alone was amazed I'm sure.

However, I'm sure I could go back and look during 2013 and some of 2014 and find plenty of talk about how Jerry Moore had cost the team at that point. There was LOTS of discussion about how his lack of OL recruitment and development had seriously affected your team (and btw I agree, ya'll have had some true struggles with that), to the point where I think the effect is still rippling today. When you have to point to a single OL injury being the reason your offense stopped dead in its tracks against stAte.....would that be a case of making excuses?

That's a lot of writing to essentially say, "we're better than you...except for when we play you."

(07-15-2017 10:47 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 09:10 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:35 PM)eaglewraith Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 12:03 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 11:09 AM)eaglewraith Wrote:  I think Liberty did too.

Yes they did, but let us have a little clarity here. App was a struggling 1-4 team whose win came over powerhouse, non-scholarship FCS Campbell. Playing mostly freshmen and sophomores we miss a 32 yard FG to win in regulation then loseto the Flames in OT. LIberty goes on to become a 9-4 FCS playoff team. Ga Southern was 8-2 (at the time of the Navy game) with narrow losses to 2 ACC teams and on their way to a conference championship. The in the conversation for the Access Bowl team gets shelled - no pun intended - by 33 to a 4-5 (again at the time of the game) Navy team. If you think that's a fair comparison, OK.

But since then....
App goes 27-5 with 3 loses to top ten P5 teams, a conference champion and a Troy team that was ranked the week after beating us. During that time the Apps win 2 bowl games and a conference champioship. Ga Southern on the other hand, goes 15-11 with a bowl win and the afore mentioned conference championship, BUT two loses to a Ga State team with a combined record of 9-16 and twice to the much hated and dispised Mountaineers by a combined score of 65-13.

I'll gladly accept the Liberty loss for what has been accomplished since. Do you say the same? Huhhhh????

Yes Georgia Southern was in the conversation in 2014. The Navy game did also indeed stop all the conversation as well. In any case, there wouldn't have been a Sun Belt candidate that year anyway since we won the conference and you have to win the conference to TRULY be in the conversation. That's what happened to Boise in 2015 when it became obvious they wouldn't make the MWC championship game.

I'd take Georgia Southern 2010-2015 all day every day. (Although honestly, you couldn't PAY me to be an App fan.)

As a program, Georgia Southern achieved much more than App did in that entire span. Accomplishments include: 3 straight semifinal runs in the FCS playoffs, 2 Southern Conference championships, win over an SEC team, undefeated record in Sun Belt also making us the first team to transition into FBS and go undefeated in conference play in the first year, 1 Sun Belt championship, bowl win in first year of eligibility.

Even looking at just time in FBS, the only thing I would change is not hiring Summers last year. Prior to the 2016 season, the only notable achievement you had that we hadn't equaled or bested was a 10 win season. We had both won a bowl game in our first year eligible, but we had already torn through the conference undefeated and won a title. The difference is one bad year in 2016.

Pray that you don't make a mistake when hiring a coach/staff, cause that's all it takes to cause things to unravel. I'm hoping we've made the correct decisions to right the ship a bit.

Yet with all that success you were 2-5 vs App. App fans didn't use the parting of ways with Jerry Moore as an excuse for our terrible 13 season and the first part of 14. Yea, you guys kicked us around pretty good in '14 when we were playing a bunch of young guys. I just wish that game would have been later in the season. You can use the bad coaching hire for last year, but what about two years ago when we thumped your 9-4 bowl winning team with 13 (14 counting the OL transfer that started 12 games the previous year at UAB) returning starters? Your AD actually offered the job to a good friend of mine before Fritz took it.

I notice how in the years we achieved more, you only want to talk about how you managed to beat us. Losing to you in those years sucked yes, however we accomplished quite a bit. Honestly, we were still ahead at the end of 2015. We had the exact same record as FBS programs with us having an edge in achievements.

And it's not an excuse for what happened last year, it's the truth. That same class of seniors had achieved quite a bit coming into the 2016 season and our RB was on pace to break an NCAA all division record in YPC. Enter the calamity that was last season.

It's just a reality. Poor coaching destroyed our 2016 season. And it wasn't just playcalling....it started in January because our S&C was ****. We looked as week as App's OL did in 2011 when you had **** for OL coaching. When you have a preseason all conference OL look totally different than he has the last 2 seasons in his senior year, there's a larger issue. It's just a good time for App fans to enjoy us at a low point and talk about how much better they think they are over us. I think quite a few conference fans were surprised with just how bad our staff was. stAte alone was amazed I'm sure.

However, I'm sure I could go back and look during 2013 and some of 2014 and find plenty of talk about how Jerry Moore had cost the team at that point. There was LOTS of discussion about how his lack of OL recruitment and development had seriously affected your team (and btw I agree, ya'll have had some true struggles with that), to the point where I think the effect is still rippling today. When you have to point to a single OL injury being the reason your offense stopped dead in its tracks against stAte.....would that be a case of making excuses?

Our discussion is about App / GaSo. It's only natural I point out with all your success you still couldn't beat App. You guys have gone through one year of this stuff. As you correctly pointed out, we endured years of it. The talent of Edwards covered up most of the problems, but once he left they really started to surface. While the conference record didn't suffer (26 wins in 3 years) once we got into the playoffs the issues became obvious. IMO it was a reflection on how weak the SmallCon was.

(07-16-2017 09:03 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Our discussion is about App / GaSo. It's only natural I point out with all your success you still couldn't beat App. You guys have gone through one year of this stuff. As you correctly pointed out, we endured years of it. The talent of Edwards covered up most of the problems, but once he left they really started to surface. While the conference record didn't suffer (26 wins in 3 years) once we got into the playoffs the issues became obvious. IMO it was a reflection on how weak the SmallCon was.

Wait a minute, you're going to tell me with Scott Satterfield, Shawn Elliot, and Mark Speir as assistants your coaching was lacking? Surely you jest.

Now I will say 2009-2011 that App State's offensive coaching was definitely lacking, but it's nothing compared to what we've had. We missed the playoffs four straight seasons. It takes a really high level of ineptitude of coaches and administrators to make that streak possible.

And I wouldn't compare it to the level of ineptitude needed to make our offensive roster last year produce less than 30 points a game last year.

(07-16-2017 10:47 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(07-16-2017 09:03 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Our discussion is about App / GaSo. It's only natural I point out with all your success you still couldn't beat App. You guys have gone through one year of this stuff. As you correctly pointed out, we endured years of it. The talent of Edwards covered up most of the problems, but once he left they really started to surface. While the conference record didn't suffer (26 wins in 3 years) once we got into the playoffs the issues became obvious. IMO it was a reflection on how weak the SmallCon was.

Wait a minute, you're going to tell me with Scott Satterfield, Shawn Elliot, and Mark Speir as assistants your coaching was lacking? Surely you jest.

Now I will say 2009-2011 that App State's offensive coaching was definitely lacking, but it's nothing compared to what we've had. We missed the playoffs four straight seasons. It takes a really high level of ineptitude of coaches and administrators to make that streak possible.

And I wouldn't compare it to the level of ineptitude needed to make our offensive roster last year produce less than 30 points a game last year.

Satterfield and Elliot left after the 09 season and Speir after 2011. Those guys can't be blamed for the downturn. It wasn't App's front office that screwed the program up, it was Jerry Moore. Gave his inept son greater control of the offense. Hired a OL coach with 1 year of experience in D1. Hired 2 former players with a combined 1 year experience in D2. Brought in another former player (you starting to see a pattern here) with zero experience at the collegiate level as S&C coach. Replaced Satterfield at OC & QB coach with a guy who coached 1 year at Elon and 2 years at N Greenville College. Twenty players (six OL signees) either left school or were kicked off the team between 2010 & 12. It was bad. Really bad.

Honestly it has been three years in the FBS. The FCS stuff speaks for itself about even with modern head to head 6 NC's vs 3...with a ton of conf championships in the SuKon blah blah who cares now.


GS 23-14 1-2 against App, 8-0 Conf title, 1 Bowl win
App 28-10 2-1 against GS, 1 shared conf title, 2 Bowl wins

Countless programs that moved up would have killed for either start as most do not do as well as we both have. The FBS move is not going to be judged for at least another 5-10 years. Neither of us are near our FBS ceilings at this point. GS just hit another gear with the addition of 7K more students and a foothold in Savannah. I am sure App is going to continue to grow as well. We have had to endure a miss on a coaching hire and still did not totally collapse like others have. App has yet to have to endure rolling the dice on an OC / DC or FCS HC yet. Good luck you will need it paying under 1M for an FBS coach.

Prediction:

App will lose in a close one to GA.
App will beat Wake in a close one at home.
App will go undefeated in Sun Belt.

App won't be mentioned in the NY6 - but will win a 3rd straight bowl game

Also, App needs to get over the 30K average home attendance this year. We need to be closer to 35K when UNC comes to town.

Prediction:
App gets wrecked at UGA (Miami part 2)
App beats Wake because who wouldn't?
App goes undefeated in conference without playing Troy or StAte
App wins Dollar General bowl
Satterfield is gone the next day

(07-20-2017 07:31 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Prediction:
App gets wrecked at UGA (Miami part 2)
App beats Wake because who wouldn't?
App goes undefeated in conference without playing Troy or StAte
App wins Dollar General bowl
Satterfield is gone the next day

I think it'll be Tennessee part 2. UGA's offense is trash. Nick Chubb can't do it by himself.

People are sleeping on this Wake team, they didn't lose much from a 7-6 team that beat a ranked Temple program in the bowl game. Clawson redshirted everyone when he came in four years ago. This game is 50/50 even at home.

Unless we can protect Lamb and rush for 200 yards UGA by 20.

(07-20-2017 08:36 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  People are sleeping on this Wake team, they didn't lose much from a 7-6 team that beat a ranked Temple program in the bowl game. Clawson redshirted everyone when he came in four years ago. This game is 50/50 even at home.

Unless we can protect Lamb and rush for 200 yards UGA by 20.

Bad luck if Wake is actually good because last year was the first winning season out of the last eight. Unbelievabley bad timing to get a series with them as most of the time they are a dumpster fire with one or two years of winning then back down to the dumpster. They are one of the programs that do not belong in the P5 and are getting millions they do not deserve. They can win zero games and still rake in 30M+ in ACC revenue...so lame. App can go undefeated this year win the NY6 game and get maybe 3M-5M in Sun Belt revenue at best depending on how the other teams do.

http://www.winsipedia.com/wake-forest

I will be pulling for App against thUGA but those RB's are both could be playing in the NFL right now. But the play calling is vanilla as usual for uga and Kirby is not dick like Muschamp and I doubt he inspires his players to play hard for him. Hard not to get out athleted in these games though.

Clawson has repeatedly done this where ever he coaches, takes over a terrible team, redshirts everyone and by year four or five overachieves for that program. He also remembers the Richmond/App playoff game when AE had 500 yards by himself. He's an excellent coach and Wake is certainly as talented as any program in the SBC.

Look at his track record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Clawson

(07-20-2017 09:04 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Clawson has repeatedly done this where ever he coaches, takes over a terrible team, redshirts everyone and by year four or five overachieves for that program. He also remembers the Richmond/App playoff game when AE had 500 yards by himself. He's an excellent coach and Wake is certainly as talented as any program in the SBC.

Look at his track record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Clawson

Their talent is equal to a really good G5 team for sure but bottom of the P5. They live in the 60-70 class rank range and usually get out recruited by G5's ever year.

Clawson, mirrors what Fritz did in his career and the beginning of the coach I wanted Jamey Chadwell.

Clawson wins the next two years he is gone to a big P5 with that resume unless Wake breaks him off with a 1.5-2M pay raise. He is the 61st highest paid coach and several AAC teams pay more.

Maybe Clawson to the SEC and Sat to Wake...

(07-20-2017 07:50 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 07:31 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Prediction:
App gets wrecked at UGA (Miami part 2)
App beats Wake because who wouldn't?
App goes undefeated in conference without playing Troy or StAte
App wins Dollar General bowl
Satterfield is gone the next day

I think it'll be Tennessee part 2. UGA's offense is trash. Nick Chubb can't do it by himself.

While I don't think it's likely they pull a Miami, I don't think it will go like Tennessee. UT was a pretty inept offense that was way too inconsistent for the amount of talent they had. UGA is just a boring pro-style attack so they'll try to run App to death and utilize play action where possible.

UGA's defense should be pretty good though.

Although what App runs is really an old stretch zone like pros used to run a lot, so it might be boring offense against boring offense.

Eason is a much better throwing QB than Dobbs was for UTenn. People like to point to the Nicholls St. game last year but UGA wet the bed at every opportunity in that game that allowed the Colonels to stay in the game. App will need similar breaks, otherwise, I agree the D will see a heavy dose of Chubb and Michel while Eason tosses the pig skin out of play action. UGA has the athletes to hit big plays so it will be imperative that Woody doesn't allow the D to give up big explosive plays. Unless UGA has a rash of off season injuries or player suspensions, I'd say UGA by 16+.

As for Wake, Clawson has hit double digit wins at every stop in his 4th year. I couldn't find the article but I read Clawson has a 72% winning percentage in his 4th year in his 3 previous stints (Hofstra, UR and BGSU). This may very well be the best team WF has had in a decade. I don't believe the Deacons have superior talent across the board like UGA will so this should be a highly contested ball game. App needs to do it's part for the conference and go 3-1 OOC.

(07-20-2017 07:31 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Prediction:
App gets wrecked at UGA (Miami part 2)
App beats Wake because who wouldn't?
App goes undefeated in conference without playing Troy or StAte
App wins Dollar General bowl
Satterfield is gone the next day

You guys, probably. Wake would beat all but three teams in the conference pretty handily imo. It's a toss up for us.

(07-20-2017 12:52 PM)BurlingtonApp Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 07:31 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Prediction:
App gets wrecked at UGA (Miami part 2)
App beats Wake because who wouldn't?
App goes undefeated in conference without playing Troy or StAte
App wins Dollar General bowl
Satterfield is gone the next day

You guys, probably. Wake would beat all but three teams in the conference pretty handily imo. It's a toss up for us.

Innocent ignorance who knew Wake was on one of their one to two year winning streaks once every decade. Bad luck for you guys and the conference. There are still just at a good G5 team level though it is not Clemson or even Tenn. IF App wins the turn over battle I think you win.

We always manage to get the P5 guys when they really good or on the rise.

2005 LSU #5
2007 Michigan #17
2008 LSU Pre season #7
2010 Florida #24
2011 VPI #13
2015 Clemson Started #12 finised #2
2016 Tenn #9 when we played, finished # 22
2016 Miami #25 when we played, fiunished #23
2017 Georgia Preseason #10
2017 WF Best team in years
2018 Penn State #6 pre season this year - you know they'll be good again next year and we'll be breaking in a new QB
2019 UNC-CH
2020 WF
2021 Miami
2022 UNC-CH
2023 UNC-CH


Best shots were
2005 Kansas 7-5 won bowl game
2006 NC State 3-9
2014 Michigan 5-7 no way we were going to win that game. Too may young players for App and that little incident in 2007 still kinda fresh in their minds.