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Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #421
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(12-27-2018 11:21 AM)whittx Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 11:09 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  When the Big East expanded in 2005, were there any other schools that were considered for expansion (aside from Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, DePaul and Marquette)?

UCF was considered but then they saw the glorified high school gym that they played basketball in and went with the school that had a 10K arena on-campus (USF).

More D1 pedigree too with USF having already competed in high major basketball leagues like CUSA 1.0 and SBC 1.0 vs. ASun membership for UCF.
12-27-2018 11:58 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #422
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(12-27-2018 10:53 AM)whittx Wrote:  In this scenario, they would have gone with UCF first as a football only, since they were already an established DI program while USF was a startup. They only took USF for full membership because UCF didn't have the basketball facilities at the time and their other sports were in a worse conference.

Point taken, and changes made. Thanks!
12-27-2018 12:07 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #423
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
I found it a little curious that the Big East took on USF as a full member in 2005. They could have doubled down in Florida and taken both USF and UCF as football affiliates but I suppose the realignment was designed to create 2 groups of 8 that could fulfill the NCAA requirements for an autobid after 5 years.

Providence
St John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Notre Dame

UConn
Pitt
Syracuse
Rutgers
WVU
Cincinnati
Louisville

UCF (FB only)
USF (FB only)

13 for Olympics, 9 for football (and an 8 game conference schedule instead of that awkward 7).

If they ever decided to upgrade the U_Fs to full membership DePaul and Marquette are still there on the basketball side.
12-27-2018 05:53 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #424
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Here's another alternative scenario for you all to ponder: Michigan makes a terrible mistake

As some of you might know, at the beginning of the 20th century Michigan had a decade long hiatus from Big Ten play after a disagreement over conference rules and played as an independent. But what if they would have tried to form "the Western Ivy League":

Michigan
Carnegie-Melon
Case
Western Reserve
Miami
Chicago
Northwestern
Washington U. (St L)

The Big Ten would be down to just 6: Minn, Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Purdue, Ind

They could rebuild one of two ways:

Option A: Ohio St, Mich St, ND, Pitt

Option B: Iowa St, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska

Either way, I'm sure that by the 40s, if not sooner, Michigan realizes that their academic powerhouse league can't cut it in sports and comes back, but without Northwestern and Chicago.

Option B would have the interesting consequence that the Oklahoma schools likely find permanent homes in the SWC, stabilizing that conference; Kansas St is left out; Colorado sticks with Mountain schools until at least the 2nd half of the century

Option A would create a real juggernaut, especially if Penn St accompanied Mich as the 12th member. Recall that Mich was a major obstacle for ND joining the B10
01-10-2019 08:35 AM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #425
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(12-27-2018 05:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I found it a little curious that the Big East took on USF as a full member in 2005. They could have doubled down in Florida and taken both USF and UCF as football affiliates but I suppose the realignment was designed to create 2 groups of 8 that could fulfill the NCAA requirements for an autobid after 5 years.

Providence
St John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Notre Dame

UConn
Pitt
Syracuse
Rutgers
WVU
Cincinnati
Louisville

UCF (FB only)
USF (FB only)

13 for Olympics, 9 for football (and an 8 game conference schedule instead of that awkward 7).

If they ever decided to upgrade the U_Fs to full membership DePaul and Marquette are still there on the basketball side.

At the press conference announcing the 2.0 configuration, Tranghese was asked about federated (football-only) memberships, and he said that the presidents weren't really interested in that setup. Temple was about to leave the conference and it really wasn't managed well on anybody's side.
01-10-2019 11:57 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #426
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(01-10-2019 08:35 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here's another alternative scenario for you all to ponder: Michigan makes a terrible mistake

As some of you might know, at the beginning of the 20th century Michigan had a decade long hiatus from Big Ten play after a disagreement over conference rules and played as an independent. But what if they would have tried to form "the Western Ivy League":

Michigan
Carnegie-Melon
Case
Western Reserve
Miami
Chicago
Northwestern
Washington U. (St L)

The Big Ten would be down to just 6: Minn, Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Purdue, Ind

They could rebuild one of two ways:

Option A: Ohio St, Mich St, ND, Pitt

Option B: Iowa St, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska

Either way, I'm sure that by the 40s, if not sooner, Michigan realizes that their academic powerhouse league can't cut it in sports and comes back, but without Northwestern and Chicago.

Option B would have the interesting consequence that the Oklahoma schools likely find permanent homes in the SWC, stabilizing that conference; Kansas St is left out; Colorado sticks with Mountain schools until at least the 2nd half of the century

Option A would create a real juggernaut, especially if Penn St accompanied Mich as the 12th member. Recall that Mich was a major obstacle for ND joining the B10



Michigan blackballed ND from joining the Big Ten and refused to even play ND for decades.

So, I don't see how your imaginary scenario would have had a different outcome on that score.
01-10-2019 12:32 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #427
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(01-10-2019 12:32 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 08:35 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here's another alternative scenario for you all to ponder: Michigan makes a terrible mistake

As some of you might know, at the beginning of the 20th century Michigan had a decade long hiatus from Big Ten play after a disagreement over conference rules and played as an independent. But what if they would have tried to form "the Western Ivy League":

Michigan
Carnegie-Melon
Case
Western Reserve
Miami
Chicago
Northwestern
Washington U. (St L)

The Big Ten would be down to just 6: Minn, Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Purdue, Ind

They could rebuild one of two ways:

Option A: Ohio St, Mich St, ND, Pitt

Option B: Iowa St, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska

Either way, I'm sure that by the 40s, if not sooner, Michigan realizes that their academic powerhouse league can't cut it in sports and comes back, but without Northwestern and Chicago.

Option B would have the interesting consequence that the Oklahoma schools likely find permanent homes in the SWC, stabilizing that conference; Kansas St is left out; Colorado sticks with Mountain schools until at least the 2nd half of the century

Option A would create a real juggernaut, especially if Penn St accompanied Mich as the 12th member. Recall that Mich was a major obstacle for ND joining the B10



Michigan blackballed ND from joining the Big Ten and refused to even play ND for decades.

So, I don't see how your imaginary scenario would have had a different outcome on that score.

Because ND would be joining the Big Ten before Michigan returns in this timeline.
01-10-2019 12:44 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #428
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(10-19-2018 08:28 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(10-14-2018 02:13 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  How about a P5 with 13-team conferences?

Pac 13 - add Texas Tech
Big 13 - Texas Tech to Pac 13; keep Missouri, Nebraska; add Pittsburgh, Louisville
ACC - Pittsburgh, Louisville to Big 13; Notre Dame becomes full member
SEC - Missouri to Big 13
Big 10 - Nebraska to Big 13

Then the G5 follows:

Mountain West - adds BYU
MAC - adds Marshall
Sun Belt - adds Charlotte, Old Dominion, Liberty
AAC - adds UMass (football only)
C-USA - Charlotte, Old Dominion, UAB to Sun Belt; adds New Mexico State

With 8 conference games, everyone has 4 fixed rivals, and plays 4 of the other 8 teams each year. The P5 then moves to 10 conference games.

Unlucky number 13! Works out for a nice 4+4/4 conference schedule, although having an odd number of teams requires byes or OOC games to fill in the gaps.

As long as we're doing unrealistic alignments, how about a 4x15 power conference scenario?

ACC
Atlantic: Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Wake Forest
Coastal: Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, Virginia, NC State
Eastern: Miami-FL, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Boston College

Big Ten
East: Indiana, Maryland, Ohio State, Penn State, Rutgers
Central: Purdue, Northwestern, Michigan, Michigan State, Illinois
West: Minnesota, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Kansas

Pac-15
East: Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas Tech, Utah
Pacific: UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, California
West: USC, Oregon State, Washington State, Arizona State, Stanford

SEC
East: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina, West Virginia
Central: Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State
West: LSU, Texas A&M, Missouri, Arkansas, Ole Miss

Also, here's the rebuilt Big 12, now a non-power conference:

Big 12
North: Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas State, Memphis, Oklahoma State
South: Baylor, Central Florida, Houston, South Florida, TCU

P4 conference schedules are 8 games, with each team playing its division every year plus 1 protected crossover and 1 rotating crossover in each of the other 2 divisions. The teams are ordered within their divisions so that their protected crossovers are in the same "column" (e.g., Clemson's protected crossovers are Florida State and Miami, etc.). Conference championships are 2-round affairs, with the 3 division champs and a wild card duking it out.

I thought of a better alignment for the ACC-15:

ACC
Atlantic: Clemson, Florida State, Louisville, NC State, Wake Forest
Coastal: Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke
Eastern: Notre Dame, Miami-FL, Pittsburgh, Boston College, Syracuse

The Atlantic and Coastal are actually the same as in reality, minus 2 schools each. Unlike my first proposal, this allows for annual Clemson/NCSU and Miami/VT matchups. The Atlantic Division is a bit OP though.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 04:47 PM by Nerdlinger.)
01-10-2019 12:50 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #429
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(01-10-2019 12:44 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 12:32 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 08:35 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here's another alternative scenario for you all to ponder: Michigan makes a terrible mistake

As some of you might know, at the beginning of the 20th century Michigan had a decade long hiatus from Big Ten play after a disagreement over conference rules and played as an independent. But what if they would have tried to form "the Western Ivy League":

Michigan
Carnegie-Melon
Case
Western Reserve
Miami
Chicago
Northwestern
Washington U. (St L)

The Big Ten would be down to just 6: Minn, Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Purdue, Ind

They could rebuild one of two ways:

Option A: Ohio St, Mich St, ND, Pitt

Option B: Iowa St, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska

Either way, I'm sure that by the 40s, if not sooner, Michigan realizes that their academic powerhouse league can't cut it in sports and comes back, but without Northwestern and Chicago.

Option B would have the interesting consequence that the Oklahoma schools likely find permanent homes in the SWC, stabilizing that conference; Kansas St is left out; Colorado sticks with Mountain schools until at least the 2nd half of the century

Option A would create a real juggernaut, especially if Penn St accompanied Mich as the 12th member. Recall that Mich was a major obstacle for ND joining the B10



Michigan blackballed ND from joining the Big Ten and refused to even play ND for decades.

So, I don't see how your imaginary scenario would have had a different outcome on that score.

Because ND would be joining the Big Ten before Michigan returns in this timeline.

My point exactly. Without Fielding Yost and Michigan blocking the Irish from membership they get a spot in the Big Ten and when Michigan realized that the new conference they hypothetically formed was untenable they'd have to return to a Big Ten that had ND as a member.

It creates a much different history. ND spends decades as core member of the Big Ten and maybe Pitt and Penn St do too. The Big Ten likely adopts a CCG in the early 90s. ND never tangos with the Big East or ACC.
01-10-2019 12:57 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #430
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(01-10-2019 12:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 12:44 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 12:32 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 08:35 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here's another alternative scenario for you all to ponder: Michigan makes a terrible mistake

As some of you might know, at the beginning of the 20th century Michigan had a decade long hiatus from Big Ten play after a disagreement over conference rules and played as an independent. But what if they would have tried to form "the Western Ivy League":

Michigan
Carnegie-Melon
Case
Western Reserve
Miami
Chicago
Northwestern
Washington U. (St L)

The Big Ten would be down to just 6: Minn, Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Purdue, Ind

They could rebuild one of two ways:

Option A: Ohio St, Mich St, ND, Pitt

Option B: Iowa St, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska

Either way, I'm sure that by the 40s, if not sooner, Michigan realizes that their academic powerhouse league can't cut it in sports and comes back, but without Northwestern and Chicago.

Option B would have the interesting consequence that the Oklahoma schools likely find permanent homes in the SWC, stabilizing that conference; Kansas St is left out; Colorado sticks with Mountain schools until at least the 2nd half of the century

Option A would create a real juggernaut, especially if Penn St accompanied Mich as the 12th member. Recall that Mich was a major obstacle for ND joining the B10



Michigan blackballed ND from joining the Big Ten and refused to even play ND for decades.

So, I don't see how your imaginary scenario would have had a different outcome on that score.

Because ND would be joining the Big Ten before Michigan returns in this timeline.

My point exactly. Without Fielding Yost and Michigan blocking the Irish from membership they get a spot in the Big Ten and when Michigan realized that the new conference they hypothetically formed was untenable they'd have to return to a Big Ten that had ND as a member.

It creates a much different history. ND spends decades as core member of the Big Ten and maybe Pitt and Penn St do too. The Big Ten likely adopts a CCG in the early 90s. ND never tangos with the Big East or ACC.

That would have been exceedingly awful for ND.

ND would have never barnstormed or caught the imagination of millions from the 1920's onward. It would never have attracted the fan base it has.

ND's history would have been more like Northwestern in your scenario. No thanks.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 03:16 PM by TerryD.)
01-10-2019 03:15 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #431
RE: Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Terry--as usual, you thinking solely about Notre Dame and missing the point of the exercise. We're pulling a tread and trying to envision what happens to the rest of the sweater. We have to divest ourselves of our knowledge of what actually occurred. If it's circa 1907 and the biggest obstacle to being in a first class athletic conference is gone by way of Michigan leaving and starting their own league then Notre Dame would have jumped all over an invite. It was exactly what Notre Dame wanted at the time--acceptance by the secular but Protestant ran academic institutions of the Midwest. Notre Dame still spends the whole 20th Century a college football blueblood, they just do so from within the Big Ten and never establish the annual series with USC and Stanford but would surely see the Trojans in some epic Rose Bowls. Pitt and Mich St, two of the rivals the Irish found when they couldn't get games with Big Ten schools, likely end up in that confence mix as well. Heck Navy, probably still bails you out in the 40s, cementing that series as well.
01-11-2019 09:37 AM
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