(07-07-2017 05:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Post your alternate history scenarios here!

Here's the present day alignment of power conferences in an alternate timeline in which the Big East football wing never formed. The SEC added Florida State (before the ACC could) as well as independent Miami, while the ACC expanded north, picking up most of the would-be Big East football schools. The Big 8 was torn apart by the Pac, Big Ten, and SEC. The Southwest Conference lasted a bit longer than in our timeline (OTL), past Ann Richards's tenure as governor. Thus when they were eventually beheaded by the Pac, Houston came along rather than Baylor.

ACC
East: Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
North: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple
South: Duke, NC State, North Carolina, Wake Forest
West: Cincinnati, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Louisville

Protected crossovers: North Carolina/Virginia, Pittsburgh/West Virginia

Big 16
East: Indiana, Ohio State, Penn State, Syracuse
North: Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Purdue
South: Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska
West: Iowa, Minnesota, Northwestern, Wisconsin

Protected crossovers: Illinois/Northwestern, Indiana/Purdue, Michigan/Ohio State

Pac-16
East: Houston, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
North: Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah
West: California, Stanford, UCLA, USC

Protected crossovers: none

SEC
East: Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Miami
North: Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
South: Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, Ole Miss
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Protected crossovers: Alabama/Tennessee, Auburn/Georgia

Annual interconference matchups
Clemson/South Carolina
Georgia/Georgia Tech
Kentucky/Louisville
Notre Dame/USC
Oklahoma/Texas
Penn State/Pittsburgh

That's an interesting take based on what would have been the most pivotal change in allegiance in realignment.

Let's go back to '91 and say that F.S.U. does decide for the SEC. What next?

Arkansas gets added as the 12th. Clemson who was somewhat interested at the time F.S.U. was talking with the SEC might well have been in the SEC rather than South Carolina and Virginia Tech who was first considered by the SEC in '91 and at the time thought of as being to remote might well have made it 14. With the defection of Clemson and no addition of Florida State the ACC never grows to viability in the world shifting rapidly to football first thinking.

Without the ACC to shelter less valuable football product in the Northeast the Big 10 takes Boston College for the markets and adds Syracuse (still AAU) they begin earlier overtures to Virginia and Maryland to anchor Penn State. By 1996 the next big wave hits. Virginia and Maryland make the move to the Big 10 and Duke and North Carolina head to the SEC.

The SEC now stands at 16:
Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia Tech
Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia,
Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
Arkansas, L.S.U., Mississippi, Mississippi State.

The Big 10 at 15 adds Notre Dame who has been looking at the breaking apart of the Big East and has realized that with no ACC in which to hide, and with the Big 12 and PAC being too remote to be economically viable for minor sports, they really have no other option than to thake the money. They keep USC annually and Navy and try a scheduling agreement with the SEC for Southern recruiting exposure.

The B1G now stands at 16:
Boston College, Maryland, Penn State, Virginia
Purdue, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Syracuse
Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern
Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin

Now the proposed Big 12 which feels shaky market wise knows what they can pick up and survive.

They add 4 to the East for the market exposure:
Georgia Tech, Miami, N.C. State, and South Carolina
Colorado, Nebraska, Missouri, Iowa State
Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Baylor, Texas, T.C.U., Texas Tech

The PAC adds nobody initially but eventually feels the pressure and picks up Utah and another (Hawaii, U.N.L.V./Nevada, or New Mexico).

And perhaps more importantly, without Florida State around which to rebuild the ACC and bolster its value, ESPN never gets a toehold with which to monopolize the product in the Southeast, and therefore never starts to pick apart the Big 12, and the LHN doesn't come to fruition, and FOX finally gets into the Southeast with their 50% ownership of the Big 12 T1 & T2 which with the addition of the states of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina launches its own network which is a joint ESPN/FOX venture. And of course once the Big 10, Big 12, and SEC are all fat and happy at 16 and can see no viable way to really increase their value with the remaining area schools there is peace in the East. Rivalries stay intact. And all the crap that has happened since 1996-7 never existed.

But of course it didn't happen so here we are. But if you wished it had been otherwise there is only 1 entity to blame and it has four letters in its name. They manipulated F.S.U. to the ACC and the rest is history.

(07-09-2017 02:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.

Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

The MAC is tough. The Sun Belt is full of schools who "earned" their way up by meeting standards. The MAC seems to almost be grandfathered in. The Ivy League would,be treated better.

I think Buffalo, Ohio, and Toledo are the safest. I'd be most concerned for Ball St, Eastern Michigan, Kent St, and Akron. The rest being likely okay.

The MAC is as secure as it's every been with G5 status and a $100 million dollar TV deal with ESPN.

-EMU has always been real shaky with attendance but is planning a huge facility investment. It's considered to be the #2 public in SE Michigan after UofM for undergraduates though.

-Akron has budget issues but got a new stadium built.

-Bowling Green has talked about going Division II because the school has only a $288 million dollar budget and more of a DII type of profile. At the moment they are hanging in there but if they were to take an enrollment drop I don't know.

-Kent State was put up for vote to be kicked out in the early 80's. Their biggest problem is the competition from Akron, EMU and BGSU in football recruiting.

There is projected to be a declining amount of HS graduates from Ohio. Enrollment pressures could get to BGSU and Akron as they are close to Wright St and Youngstown St on the food chain. The other ones are too high in the state food chain for it to be a concern.

(07-09-2017 02:10 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Perhaps, feeling pressured, the B1G invite Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Colorado from the Big 8. The SWC (without Arkansas) stays intact but adds Oklahoma St and Kansas St for 10. Iowa St is stranded or maybe goes in as #11 to the SWC.

I doubt that would have happened (at least in the 1990s).

Penn State checked A LOT of boxes (new region, would definitely bring in incremental revenue, proven very good football program, academic profile that fit with the rest of the conference to a tee). A B1G that wouldn't invite a school like PSU is a B1G that would stay where it was.

One of the 3 "no" votes on PSU was Michigan - then President James Duderstadt has said the reason for the vote was because of resistance toward the over-commercialization of college athletics.

IMO, in this alternate history the B1G would have stayed at 10 (similar to the Pac-10) all the way through at least the mid-2000s, then picked up some northern Big XII teams (Nebraska + ?) when the Big XII began to have internal strife.

Akron's latest budget is $340 million in revenues vs. $369 million in expenditures. A $29 million dollar shortfall for this fiscal year.

http://www.uakron.edu/budget/

A move to a P5 conference is a complete non-starter for them.

Toledo has an $885 million budget vs. $853 million in expenditures. A totally different financial picture at Toledo. A budget almost as large as BGSU, Akron and EMU put together.

http://www.utoledo.edu/offices/budget/pd...060916.pdf

Most of the MAC is in the $300-$400 million budget range. CMU is $500 million, Kent State $650 million, Miami is $700 million, Ohio $800 million, Toledo $900 million, Buffalo is over 1 billion in budget.

Some of the MVC schools we talk about for the MAC
Illinois State $450 million
Southern Illinois $439 million
Missouri State $200 million

All of them would be below average with the schools in the MAC at the moment.

(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.

Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

Western, are you kidding? They have their first really good season in 15 years and first notable national season in even longer and suddenly they have a quiet resume of winning? Same for Bowling, they had a couple years under Urban Meyer and pull a few upsets and suddenly that's a notable resume?

If you put any 12 teams together, someone has to win games and that's exactly what's happened in the MAC since Marshall left. Marshall was the last really great MAC program that won games and produced numerous notable prospects.

IIRC, Western Kentucky fell a vote or two short of acceptance into the MAC about ten years ago due to academic concerns. Had we let them in, we would've still taken in Temple football to even out the divisions, but who knows if we'd invite UMass football once Temple left, and instead look at a permanent 14th team like James Madison. Perhaps WKU would've gone to the C-USA like in real life, but if not then the C-USA would've had to find another team for the conference.

(07-09-2017 04:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.

Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

Western, are you kidding? They have their first really good season in 15 years and first notable national season in even longer and suddenly they have a quiet resume of winning? Same for Bowling, they had a couple years under Urban Meyer and pull a few upsets and suddenly that's a notable resume?

If you put any 12 teams together, someone has to win games and that's exactly what's happened in the MAC since Marshall left. Marshall was the last really great MAC program that won games and produced numerous notable prospects.

Ahem.



There were also four other future NFL players on the 2003 team that finished 10th. By that point Marshall had peaked in the MAC.

I didn't say the MAC didn't produce some notable NFL prospects, I essentially said they didn't have a program that was notable for doing so since Marshall. Miami was a flash in the pan that year.

(07-09-2017 01:46 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  Going back to June 1990 --- the FIRST move that was made in the expansion re-shuffle was the B1G inviting Penn State.

But that vote was close. Penn State only got in by 1 vote.

What if one school changed their vote from "yes" to "no"?

The Big East announced in February 1991 they would start sponsoring football. A B1G-rejected PSU is now an option - I'd posit that PSU gets the invite instead of their fellow A-10 member Temple. In the immediate short-term, PSU would keep Olympic Sports in the A-10 as to not disrupt the Big East basketball cart. In the longer-term, PSU Olympic Sports join the Big East (as happened w/ WVU & Rutgers, beginning in 1995).

For the rest of the 1990s, that makes for a stronger Big East - the ACC/Big East "reckoning" likely still happens in the early 2000s, but the Big East is in more of a position of strength. Not unrealistic that teams would have gone from the ACC to the Big East (e.g., Maryland) as opposed to the reverse.

Meanwhile, the B1G --- it's a considerably more regional and insular conference during the 1990s. Any expansion plans to the East are pretty much blocked by a more powerful (than in real life) Big East. Any expansion plans would have to go West - maybe they get a couple Big 8 teams instead of all Big 8 teams joining into the Big XII.

It was B1G expanding that cleared the path and made expanding SEC and ACC an imperative.
No Penn State to B1G do you have Arkansas leaving SWC at that point. Do you have the Great Metro meeting that fails and results in the Big East adding football.
If SEC doesn't expand does anyone outside the SEC even notice the conference championship rule that had been created to help a Division II league applies to I-A?

Penn State to B1G was Enola Gay over Hiroshima changing the world forever.

(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.

Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

Why do you comment on conferences that you have no idea about??? Just wondering for all the people who still have working brain cells after reading your hot garbage.

(07-09-2017 05:25 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I didn't say the MAC didn't produce some notable NFL prospects, I essentially said they didn't have a program that was notable for doing so since Marshall. Miami was a flash in the pan that year.

Miami had about a decade prior to the Big Ben year of winning seasons and 2003 was the crown year of that era in the program.

I'd say overall though the MAC produces NFL prospects by committee with a solid output across the conference.

Which is fine but it doesn't change my point. There's no "it" program in the MAC and there hasn't been one since Marshall.

On a side note, NIU had some potential but couldn't sustain it.

(07-09-2017 08:34 PM)utpotts Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.

Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

Why do you comment on conferences that you have no idea about??? Just wondering for all the people who still have working brain cells after reading your hot garbage.

Because people on here forgot that these two schools have upset P5 opponents. It does not matter if they had a winning record or not. They still have a remarkable record which they are no Ball State, Kent State and Eastern Michigan. They are much better than those three.

Western Michigan's Tim Lester led his team to faced Chad Pennington's Marshall team in the 1999 MAC Championship.
Tim Hiller led as the QB for Western Michigan winning seasons in the mid 2000s.
Alex Carder had a winning season or 2 under his belt as well. They may not have been like last year's Western Michigan team, but they had many winning seasons since Molde took over in the 1980s. Before then, they were mainly losers like Eastern Michigan.

Bowling Green is mainly known for upsetting P5 schools which they do have talent. It is tough to take on Northern Illinois and Toledo every year.

(07-07-2017 06:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Thanks for the pat on the back but there's no way Houston would have come along. Houston athletics was a mess and a joke until around 10 years ago. It was playing in a stadium that was put to shame by many local high school stadiums and the basketball arena wasn't so bad but definitely outdated. This is to say nothing of performance on the field of play. 1991-2005 was probably the darkest period in Houston sports history.

Alternatively, UH gets the call to the SEC or Big 8/12 in 1985-90 if the plate tectonics start activating back then.

If I recall correctly (and there are actual documents in our archives proving this) we were 1 vote from being invited to the SEC in the 60's.

Ole Miss was our sponsor.

(07-10-2017 11:06 AM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(07-07-2017 06:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Thanks for the pat on the back but there's no way Houston would have come along. Houston athletics was a mess and a joke until around 10 years ago. It was playing in a stadium that was put to shame by many local high school stadiums and the basketball arena wasn't so bad but definitely outdated. This is to say nothing of performance on the field of play. 1991-2005 was probably the darkest period in Houston sports history.

Alternatively, UH gets the call to the SEC or Big 8/12 in 1985-90 if the plate tectonics start activating back then.

If I recall correctly (and there are actual documents in our archives proving this) we were 1 vote from being invited to the SEC in the 60's.

Ole Miss was our sponsor.

I believe Miami was in the same boat as Houston with the SEC around that time.

(07-07-2017 05:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Post your alternate history scenarios here!

Here's the present day alignment of power conferences in an alternate timeline in which the Big East football wing never formed. The SEC added Florida State (before the ACC could) as well as independent Miami, while the ACC expanded north, picking up most of the would-be Big East football schools. The Big 8 was torn apart by the Pac, Big Ten, and SEC. The Southwest Conference lasted a bit longer than in our timeline (OTL), past Ann Richards's tenure as governor. Thus when they were eventually beheaded by the Pac, Houston came along rather than Baylor.

ACC
East: Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
North: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple
South: Duke, NC State, North Carolina, Wake Forest
West: Cincinnati, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Louisville

Protected crossovers: North Carolina/Virginia, Pittsburgh/West Virginia

Big 16
East: Indiana, Ohio State, Penn State, Syracuse
North: Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Purdue
South: Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska
West: Iowa, Minnesota, Northwestern, Wisconsin

Protected crossovers: Illinois/Northwestern, Indiana/Purdue, Michigan/Ohio State

Pac-16
East: Houston, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
North: Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah
West: California, Stanford, UCLA, USC

Protected crossovers: none

SEC
East: Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Miami
North: Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
South: Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, Ole Miss
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Protected crossovers: Alabama/Tennessee, Auburn/Georgia

Annual interconference matchups
Clemson/South Carolina
Georgia/Georgia Tech
Kentucky/Louisville
Notre Dame/USC
Oklahoma/Texas
Penn State/Pittsburgh

Replace Temple with Syracuse.

(07-10-2017 01:36 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(07-07-2017 05:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Post your alternate history scenarios here!

Here's the present day alignment of power conferences in an alternate timeline in which the Big East football wing never formed. The SEC added Florida State (before the ACC could) as well as independent Miami, while the ACC expanded north, picking up most of the would-be Big East football schools. The Big 8 was torn apart by the Pac, Big Ten, and SEC. The Southwest Conference lasted a bit longer than in our timeline (OTL), past Ann Richards's tenure as governor. Thus when they were eventually beheaded by the Pac, Houston came along rather than Baylor.

ACC
East: Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
North: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple
South: Duke, NC State, North Carolina, Wake Forest
West: Cincinnati, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Louisville

Protected crossovers: North Carolina/Virginia, Pittsburgh/West Virginia

Big 16
East: Indiana, Ohio State, Penn State, Syracuse
North: Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Purdue
South: Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska
West: Iowa, Minnesota, Northwestern, Wisconsin

Protected crossovers: Illinois/Northwestern, Indiana/Purdue, Michigan/Ohio State

Pac-16
East: Houston, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
North: Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah
West: California, Stanford, UCLA, USC

Protected crossovers: none

SEC
East: Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Miami
North: Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
South: Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, Ole Miss
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Protected crossovers: Alabama/Tennessee, Auburn/Georgia

Annual interconference matchups
Clemson/South Carolina
Georgia/Georgia Tech
Kentucky/Louisville
Notre Dame/USC
Oklahoma/Texas
Penn State/Pittsburgh

Replace Temple with Syracuse.

In this timeline, the Big Ten snagged Syracuse before the ACC could and before they dropped their AAU status (if they even do so, as in OTL). The ACC took Temple mainly for its prime location in a large metro area.

(07-10-2017 11:06 AM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(07-07-2017 06:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Thanks for the pat on the back but there's no way Houston would have come along. Houston athletics was a mess and a joke until around 10 years ago. It was playing in a stadium that was put to shame by many local high school stadiums and the basketball arena wasn't so bad but definitely outdated. This is to say nothing of performance on the field of play. 1991-2005 was probably the darkest period in Houston sports history.

Alternatively, UH gets the call to the SEC or Big 8/12 in 1985-90 if the plate tectonics start activating back then.

If I recall correctly (and there are actual documents in our archives proving this) we were 1 vote from being invited to the SEC in the 60's.

Ole Miss was our sponsor.

I recall seeing a newspaper article that showed Florida State as the partner to go in so I believe that.

(07-07-2017 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I love the speculative history.

I've always wondered about if an eastern all sports league might have emerged centered around Penn St and attracted both Florida St and Miami. The Florida schools and Penn St would be the stars of the show with VT, Syracuse, WVU, and BC making nice showings through the 90s and 00s. (Sorry Rutgers, Temple, and Pitt you're all still cellar dwellers in this timeline)

The question is would is league be able to earn big tv dollars and its best members not lured away? Perhaps Penn St, much like Texas, would prefer to be king in its league and enjoy having a voting block supporting them.

I'm guessing circa 2004 this league steals GT and Clemson from the ACC to get to 12 and start a title game and to better tie in the Florida schools to the rest of the league.

ACC is reduced to Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, NC St, WF and has to add Louisville, Cincy, USF, and UCF.

In 2012 this league expands again to 16 with Duke, UNC, Maryland, and UVA. NC St joins the SEC at roughly the same time (instead of Missouri) and Louisville slips into the Big 12.

I like an idea of an eastern FB league made up of the independents of the time. If that formed in the late 80's thats a dynamite league that might still be around today.

North: PSU, BC, Cuse, Temple, Rutgers, Pitt

South: FSU, Miami, USC, ECU, VT, WVU