(04-05-2020 08:54 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(04-05-2020 05:37 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What if the Big 10 had decided not to add Maryland and Rutgers in Nov 2012, preferring to stay at 12 (and perhaps giving them greater flexibility in who they offered in a future deal.

Maryland stays in the ACC.

Big East FB becomes:

UConn, Rutgers, Temple, Navy, UCF, USF
Cincy, L’ville, Memphis, SMU, Houston

Faced with the ultimatum that the Catholic 7 would dart if anymore full members members were added the football schools have to choose between an elevated Villanova program or UMass as a football only.


Tulane, Tulsa, and ECU stay in C-USA

FAU, WKU, and MTSU stay in the SBC

Coastal Carolina stays in FCS.

I think ECU was in as a football only by the time the Big 10 offered Rutgers. Navy probably still goes into the West division, with ECU in the East.

In terms of when the announcements came, Rutgers to the Big Ten was 11/20/2012, and ECU (FB only) and Tulane (full) to the Big East was 11/27/2012. In any case, even before Rutgers left, it was too late to prevent the basketball schools from splitting off. That line had been crossed at the very latest by the time Pitt and Syracuse announced they were joining the ACC, but probably earlier (the Miami/VT departures).

The Rutgers and Louisville departures were announced in November (as was Tulane and ECU).

December was when the Catholic 7 left.

I’m working under the presumption that the loss of that pair and the announcements of their replacements were the straws that broke the camel’s back.

If the Catholic 7 decide to leave anyway then it would be up to the other 10 to pick an 11th full member or find a football only to balance Navy.

(04-05-2020 09:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Rutgers and Louisville departures were announced in November (as was Tulane and ECU).

December was when the Catholic 7 left.

I’m working under the presumption that the loss of that pair and the announcements of their replacements were the straws that broke the camel’s back.

If the Catholic 7 decide to leave anyway then it would be up to the other 10 to pick an 11th full member or find a football only to balance Navy.

Faulty assumption. For one, ECU was FB only at the time, and for two, Tulane had to have been approved by several of the C7. Not to mention that associating with a school like Tulane is a university president's dream. No, the C7's decision to leave would have to have been made much earlier.

(04-05-2020 10:01 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-05-2020 09:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Rutgers and Louisville departures were announced in November (as was Tulane and ECU).

December was when the Catholic 7 left.

I’m working under the presumption that the loss of that pair and the announcements of their replacements were the straws that broke the camel’s back.

If the Catholic 7 decide to leave anyway then it would be up to the other 10 to pick an 11th full member or find a football only to balance Navy.

Faulty assumption. For one, ECU was FB only at the time, and for two, Tulane had to have been approved by several of the C7. Not to mention that associating with a school like Tulane is a university president's dream. No, the C7's decision to leave would have to have been made much earlier.

The 7 probably knew they were on their way out and approved Tulane as a favor to a pal. But seriously, what did it matter who they voted in at that point? It’s the great totem pole of realignment. Nothing’s changed. Tulane got in C-USA before ECU and Tulsa as well. Most people over analyze this stuff when the answers are already there.

(04-05-2020 10:01 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-05-2020 09:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Rutgers and Louisville departures were announced in November (as was Tulane and ECU).

December was when the Catholic 7 left.

I’m working under the presumption that the loss of that pair and the announcements of their replacements were the straws that broke the camel’s back.

If the Catholic 7 decide to leave anyway then it would be up to the other 10 to pick an 11th full member or find a football only to balance Navy.

Faulty assumption. For one, ECU was FB only at the time, and for two, Tulane had to have been approved by several of the C7. Not to mention that associating with a school like Tulane is a university president's dream. No, the C7's decision to leave would have to have been made much earlier.

ECU’s fb membership and Tulane’s full membership were announced a month before the Catholic 7 chose to leave.

Tulane’s poor basketball program was at the time reported to be a breaking point for the Catholic 7. Maybe the Catholic 7 already had their minds made up and the loss of Pitt, Cuse, and WVU was enough to make them bid adieu to the football side.

Regardless, C-USA and the SBC look a whole lot different if the Big Ten holds at 12.

(04-06-2020 11:42 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-05-2020 10:01 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-05-2020 09:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Rutgers and Louisville departures were announced in November (as was Tulane and ECU).

December was when the Catholic 7 left.

I’m working under the presumption that the loss of that pair and the announcements of their replacements were the straws that broke the camel’s back.

If the Catholic 7 decide to leave anyway then it would be up to the other 10 to pick an 11th full member or find a football only to balance Navy.

Faulty assumption. For one, ECU was FB only at the time, and for two, Tulane had to have been approved by several of the C7. Not to mention that associating with a school like Tulane is a university president's dream. No, the C7's decision to leave would have to have been made much earlier.

ECU’s fb membership and Tulane’s full membership were announced a month before the Catholic 7 chose to leave.

Tulane’s poor basketball program was at the time reported to be a breaking point for the Catholic 7. Maybe the Catholic 7 already had their minds made up and the loss of Pitt, Cuse, and WVU was enough to make them bid adieu to the football side.

Regardless, C-USA and the SBC look a whole lot different if the Big Ten holds at 12.

The C7 approved Tulane (basketball included) due to the academic association AND the promise made by the (then) conference leadership that acquiring major markets was going to salvage/create a high-paying hybrid conference (just the like the Big East had been up to that point). The C7 also approved Houston, SMU, UCF and Memphis as full-members, but Boise State, San Diego State and ECU were simply football-only members. The pitch was that getting these top markets for an all-sports league (Houston, Dallas, Orlando, New Orleans, Memphis, along with Tampa, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Chicago, Milwaukee, New York City, etc.) would create high value/high volume content for ESPN, and would recoup much of the lost value when Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, etc. all left (despite the clear drop-off in athletic branding and associations).

When it was learned that, in fact, ESPN/networks were actually NOT willing to pay that high value that was being pushed behind closed doors (and a major reason why the C7 approved Tulane in the first place, despite the very poor basketball program), that's when the C7 seriously began to consider breaking-off and creating a non-football league. At that point, the hybrid model simply did not provide the value necessary to keep a collection of dissimilar athletic programs/schools together. FWIW, at the time, the C7 was very aware that - despite they were just a football-only invitation/acceptance - that ECU inevitably was going to join the BE as a full member. It was only a matter of time.

Had the financial promises from leadership about the contract details been kept, the hybrid model could have continued; however, inevitably, the factions provided more value separated rather than together.

Remember the WAC-16 from 1996-1998? From what I’ve read, it came into being by one vote. But what if they couldn’t get the votes and don’t add 2 members to their eastern flank and 4 to the west? (From what I understand, the 3 SWC schools were only coming as a package deal and the West schools were going to block any expansion that didn’t include UNLV and SJSU).

The WAC holds at 10:

Hawaii, Fresno St, San Diego St, Utah, BYU, Wyo, Colo St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

The Big West still expands that year:

SJSU, UNLV, Nevada, Utah St, NMSU, Boise St, Idaho, UNT

What happens with the SWC schools? I’d think Houston still bails on the other 3.

Any chance that C-USA decides to go to 16 in all sports and 10 for football?:

Tulsa, SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati
non-fb: UAB, Char, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis

by 2003 fb would be at 12 with the UAB and USF upgrades

The alternative for the SWC schools is a lot bleaker.

2005 sees Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, and Charlotte depart C-USA and Marshall, UCF, and ECU join.

SBC football doesn’t get off the ground until 2005 with Ark St, LA Tech, ULL, MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU.

The WAC and Big Sky conferences enjoy stability from 1996-2010, when Utah and BYU leave the WAC.

We’ve talked about the founding of the ACC in this thread before but I wanted to revisit it with this thought.

We’ve talked about how history would be different had VT and WVU been included in addition to the 8 founders but what if they had been included and private schools Duke and WF get left out, a public schools only line up?

UNC and NC St benefitted by having two extra votes on conference matters but I imagine it would have been more beneficial had they left them behind to whither into what programs like Furman, VMI, Citadel, Richmond, and William & Mary became. With less instate competition the Wolf Pack and Tar Heel programs end up a lot stronger.

South Carolina never gets mad and goes Indy and doesn’t get lured to the SEC in 1991. GT and Florida St still join, bringing membership up to 10. Miami and BC make 12.

North: BC, WVU, Maryland, VT, UVA, UNC
South: NC St, Clemson, SC, GT, FSU, Miami

Not a bad set up. Maybe they manage to hold on to WVU and Maryland too. WVU probably stays (Louisville joins the Big 12 in their spot). Maryland probably doesn’t. Assuming they still invite Pitt and Syracuse when they do, Maryland’s replacement probably ends up being UConn:

North: BC, UConn, Cuse, Pitt, WVU, VT, Miami
South: UVA, UNC, NC St, Clemson, SC, GT, FSU

VA and FL schools get protected crossovers

The more time that passes the happier I am Maryland left. Maryland for Louisville seems to be a straight up across the board upgrade.

Would Oklahoma St have been better off had they not joined the MVC in 1925?

3 years later, the other 6 public schools bolted, angered because Oklahoma St won the football title in 1927 despite playing fewer conference games than everyone else, to form the Big 6.

Rather than spending decades in a weakened revolving door conference they could have spent that time in the SWC.

Tulane and Georgia Tech never leave the SEC. In 1991 the SEC adds Arkansas and South Carolina.

SEC East: UT, UK, SCAR, UGA, GT, UF, Vandy
SEC West: Bama, Auburn, Ole Miss, MSU, LSU, Tulane, Arkansas

In 2011 A&M and Mizzou join.

SEC West: Arkansas, A&M, Mizzou, Vandy
SEC Gulf: LSU, Tulane Ole Miss, MSU
SEC Central: Bama, Auburn, UK, UT
SEC East: SCAR, UGA, GT, UF

Honoring John Swofford's upcoming retirement, let's do a totally unrealistic one.

The ACC has the unusual makeup of 14 football members and 15 in men's and women's basketball. Assuming you have to have two divisions, you practically have to have an even number of teams in the conference. Now you can have an odd number of basketball teams but it isn't that great either. In a given weekend, one team is either off or has to play a non conference game. Ideally the ACC would have an even number of football members and basketball members. Assuming Notre Dame is going to stay a non football member, the only way for the ACC to have an even number of members in both conferences is to add a team in all sports but football.

If the ACC wanted to add a team for men's basketball and totally hurt the Big East ... again, the obvious choice would be Villanova. They'd also add the Philadelphia area to the ACC. They could also add UConn for all sports but football and use it as a carrot for them to improve football, possibly agreeing to 5 (or 3 or some other # of) games vs. ACC opponents a year. Either of them would hurt the Big East, Villanova would make them not a "power" conference in men's basketball. How about adding Villanova, UConn, and Georgetown to get the ACC back into the DC area after Maryland left? Then all those teams would be playing Syracuse again.

If Villanova goes to the ACC and UConn stays, what's the Big East's move? Do they stand pat or do they add another team? Maybe with Villanova out Temple could get into the Big East and do the same as UConn? What other dominos occur?

(04-28-2020 08:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Remember the WAC-16 from 1996-1998? From what I’ve read, it came into being by one vote. But what if they couldn’t get the votes and don’t add 2 members to their eastern flank and 4 to the west? (From what I understand, the 3 SWC schools were only coming as a package deal and the West schools were going to block any expansion that didn’t include UNLV and SJSU).

The WAC holds at 10:

Hawaii, Fresno St, San Diego St, Utah, BYU, Wyo, Colo St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

The Big West still expands that year:

SJSU, UNLV, Nevada, Utah St, NMSU, Boise St, Idaho, UNT

What happens with the SWC schools? I’d think Houston still bails on the other 3.

Any chance that C-USA decides to go to 16 in all sports and 10 for football?:

Tulsa, SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati
non-fb: UAB, Char, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis

by 2003 fb would be at 12 with the UAB and USF upgrades

The alternative for the SWC schools is a lot bleaker.

2005 sees Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, and Charlotte depart C-USA and Marshall, UCF, and ECU join.

SBC football doesn’t get off the ground until 2005 with Ark St, LA Tech, ULL, MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU.

The WAC and Big Sky conferences enjoy stability from 1996-2010, when Utah and BYU leave the WAC.

I'm a bit late in responding to this, but I posted a similar scenario upthread a ways: https://csnbbs.com/thread-821510-post-15...id15283343

I feel like even if the WAC stuck at 10 for 1996, they'd eventually expand to 12 for the CCG, and it would end up very much like that scenario.

(10-02-2020 07:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-28-2020 08:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Remember the WAC-16 from 1996-1998? From what I’ve read, it came into being by one vote. But what if they couldn’t get the votes and don’t add 2 members to their eastern flank and 4 to the west? (From what I understand, the 3 SWC schools were only coming as a package deal and the West schools were going to block any expansion that didn’t include UNLV and SJSU).

The WAC holds at 10:

Hawaii, Fresno St, San Diego St, Utah, BYU, Wyo, Colo St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

The Big West still expands that year:

SJSU, UNLV, Nevada, Utah St, NMSU, Boise St, Idaho, UNT

What happens with the SWC schools? I’d think Houston still bails on the other 3.

Any chance that C-USA decides to go to 16 in all sports and 10 for football?:

Tulsa, SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati
non-fb: UAB, Char, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis

by 2003 fb would be at 12 with the UAB and USF upgrades

The alternative for the SWC schools is a lot bleaker.

2005 sees Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, and Charlotte depart C-USA and Marshall, UCF, and ECU join.

SBC football doesn’t get off the ground until 2005 with Ark St, LA Tech, ULL, MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU.

The WAC and Big Sky conferences enjoy stability from 1996-2010, when Utah and BYU leave the WAC.

I'm a bit late in responding to this, but I posted a similar scenario upthread a ways: https://csnbbs.com/thread-821510-post-15...id15283343

I feel like even if the WAC stuck at 10 for 1996, they'd eventually expand to 12 for the CCG, and it would end up very much like that scenario.

If they hold at 10 in 1996 that means the SWC schools have to put together an alternate plan—probably C-USA.

I think if the WAC desired a CCG at a later date they add on the West side—San Jose St and UNLV.

That leads to:

West: Hawaii, San Diego St, San Jose St, Fresno St, UNLV, Utah,
East: BYU, Wyoming, Colorado St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

Protected rivalry for BYU-Utah. I think that would keep everyone happy.

(10-03-2020 06:43 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 07:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-28-2020 08:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Remember the WAC-16 from 1996-1998? From what I’ve read, it came into being by one vote. But what if they couldn’t get the votes and don’t add 2 members to their eastern flank and 4 to the west? (From what I understand, the 3 SWC schools were only coming as a package deal and the West schools were going to block any expansion that didn’t include UNLV and SJSU).

The WAC holds at 10:

Hawaii, Fresno St, San Diego St, Utah, BYU, Wyo, Colo St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

The Big West still expands that year:

SJSU, UNLV, Nevada, Utah St, NMSU, Boise St, Idaho, UNT

What happens with the SWC schools? I’d think Houston still bails on the other 3.

Any chance that C-USA decides to go to 16 in all sports and 10 for football?:

Tulsa, SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, Tulane, USM, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati
non-fb: UAB, Char, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis

by 2003 fb would be at 12 with the UAB and USF upgrades

The alternative for the SWC schools is a lot bleaker.

2005 sees Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, and Charlotte depart C-USA and Marshall, UCF, and ECU join.

SBC football doesn’t get off the ground until 2005 with Ark St, LA Tech, ULL, MTSU, Troy, FAU, and FIU.

The WAC and Big Sky conferences enjoy stability from 1996-2010, when Utah and BYU leave the WAC.

I'm a bit late in responding to this, but I posted a similar scenario upthread a ways: https://csnbbs.com/thread-821510-post-15...id15283343

I feel like even if the WAC stuck at 10 for 1996, they'd eventually expand to 12 for the CCG, and it would end up very much like that scenario.

If they hold at 10 in 1996 that means the SWC schools have to put together an alternate plan—probably C-USA.

I think if the WAC desired a CCG at a later date they add on the West side—San Jose St and UNLV.

That leads to:

West: Hawaii, San Diego St, San Jose St, Fresno St, UNLV, Utah,
East: BYU, Wyoming, Colorado St, AFA, UNM, UTEP

Protected rivalry for BYU-Utah. I think that would keep everyone happy.

I think you'd probably have to stick UTEP (or UNM) in the West/Pacific Division so both BYU and Utah could be in the East/Mountain Division. Recall that the Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado schools initiated the MWC airport meeting at least in part because they couldn't play each other annually.

What if the WAC and Missouri Valley Football Conference had agreed to team up?

The WAC was down to New Mexico State, Denver, Idaho, and Seattle; Texas State, UTSA, Louisiana Tech, and even UT-Arlington had announced their departures by May 2012, all effective July 1, 2013.

The WAC would invite Wichita State, Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, and Southern Illinois from the MVC proper; North Dakota State, South Dakota State from the Summit; and North Dakota, then in the Big Sky:

WAC - Seattle*, Idaho, Denver*, NMSU, WSU*, UND, NDSU, SDSU, Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Southern Illinois
MVC - Indiana State, Bradley, Drake, Evansville, Loyola-Chicago
Summit - South Dakota, Omaha, Western Illinois, IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC

The MVC then raids the Horizon League one more time and adds Green Bay, Milwaukee, Cleveland State, Youngstown State, and Valparaiso. The Horizon counters with IUPUI, IPFW, and Western Illinois from the Summit:

MVC - Indiana State, Bradley, Drake, Evansville, Loyola-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Valparaiso
Horizon - Western Illinois, Illinois-Chicago, IUPUI, IPFW, Oakland, Detroit, Wright State
Summit - South Dakota, Omaha, UMKC

The Summit then takes on the role of the WAC as we currently know it. They take Seattle from the WAC (Idaho joins the Big Sky), and independents Utah Valley, UTPA, and CSU Bakersfield. Grand Canyon is ushered in from Division II:
Summit - Seattle, Utah Valley, CSU Bakersfield, Grand Canyon, South Dakota, Omaha, UMKC, UTPA

Here’s my scenario: What if Oklahoma and Oklahoma St stayed in the SWC?

MVC consists of Iowa St, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas St, Wash U, Grinnell, Drake

They lose Grinnell in 1939 and Wash U in 1947, but pick up Colorado in 1947 to maintain 7 members.

In 1952 they lose Drake and this is where I think things get a little speculative. Do they maybe add one or more of the schools that passed through the real MVC at this time? (Wich St, Tulsa, UNT, Cincy, Memphis, L’ville) I have to think that anywhere from 1-3 of those schools end up joining this alternative reality MVC in the 1950s or 60s.

Meanwhile in SWC country, TCU joins in 1923, TTU in 1956, and Houston in 1972 to make 11 members.

In the early 90s, when the first wave of modern expansion occurs the SWC is healthy—Arkansas has no interest in the SEC and it’s the SWC looking for a 12th.

The SEC takes SC, but with no prospects in the West They either have to make a real hard push for FSU or they settle for either WVU or VT for their 12th

Nebraska, the lone tent pole of the MVC, is a hot commodity for both the Big Ten and SWC. The SWC lands the Huskers and they establish this division set up:

North: Nebraska, Oklahoma, OK St, Arkansas, SMU, TCU
South: TTU, Texas, Baylor, Rice, Houston, TAMU

By this time, if not decades earlier, I think we have schools like Cincy, Louisville, and maybe even Memphis in the MVC.

in 2005, when the ACC expands to 12, the schools left behind in the Big East might have found themselves in a real pickle in Cincinnati and Louisville are already in the MVC. Instead of a Big East football rebuild, we might see Pitt/Cuse/Rutgers etc becomes MVC affiliates.

(10-31-2020 12:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s my scenario: What if Oklahoma and Oklahoma St stayed in the SWC?

MVC consists of Iowa St, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas St, Wash U, Grinnell, Drake

They lose Grinnell in 1939 and Wash U in 1947, but pick up Colorado in 1947 to maintain 7 members.

In 1952 they lose Drake and this is where I think things get a little speculative. Do they maybe add one or more of the schools that passed through the real MVC at this time? (Wich St, Tulsa, UNT, Cincy, Memphis, L’ville) I have to think that anywhere from 1-3 of those schools end up joining this alternative reality MVC in the 1950s or 60s.

Meanwhile in SWC country, TCU joins in 1923, TTU in 1956, and Houston in 1972 to make 11 members.

In the early 90s, when the first wave of modern expansion occurs the SWC is healthy—Arkansas has no interest in the SEC and it’s the SWC looking for a 12th.

The SEC takes SC, but with no prospects in the West They either have to make a real hard push for FSU or they settle for either WVU or VT for their 12th

Nebraska, the lone tent pole of the MVC, is a hot commodity for both the Big Ten and SWC. The SWC lands the Huskers and they establish this division set up:

North: Nebraska, Oklahoma, OK St, Arkansas, SMU, TCU
South: TTU, Texas, Baylor, Rice, Houston, TAMU

By this time, if not decades earlier, I think we have schools like Cincy, Louisville, and maybe even Memphis in the MVC.

in 2005, when the ACC expands to 12, the schools left behind in the Big East might have found themselves in a real pickle in Cincinnati and Louisville are already in the MVC. Instead of a Big East football rebuild, we might see Pitt/Cuse/Rutgers etc becomes MVC affiliates.

To answer your question, we have to answer whether the MVIAA/Big 6 (Colorado would have actually been the 6th member in 1947 had Oklahoma and Oklahoma State stayed in the SWC) would survive the departure of Nebraska.

The MVC was a separate entity from the Big 6/7/8 and eventually wound up on the I-AA (FCS) side of the Division I split. Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis all left the MVC over football scheduling within a 4-year span. It's final football season in 1985 had a lineup more like today's MVFC than the Big 8.

I think it's more likely the Big 6 would have broken up once Nebraska left. The Big 10 would have likely taken Missouri to get its championship game in football. Kansas and Kansas State may have tried to get in the SWC as well, with the Big East as backup plan. Iowa State likely just applies directly to the Big East.

Big East (2005)
Football: Kansas(?), Kansas State(?), Iowa State, Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, South Florida
Non-football: DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's

With Arkansas off the board, the SEC added Virginia Tech and South Carolina for 1992. The ACC added Pittsburgh instead of Virginia Tech in 2005.

Eventually Texas A&M gets the itch to rid themselves of the Longhorns, so Texas A&M and Arkansas join the SEC. The Big 10 adds Rutgers and Maryland, sending Syracuse to the ACC. The ACC then reluctantly adds Louisville, UConn, and Notre Dame sans football.

Kansas and Kansas State join the SWC if they haven't already. They are then followed by Iowa State and West Virginia to get to 14 themselves.

The Big East - down to South Florida and Cincinnati on the football field - reloads with Memphis, Central Florida, Tulane, Temple, UAB, and East Carolina. The conference eventually splits, and the American then adds Tulsa, North Texas, Rice, and football-only Navy.

(10-31-2020 12:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s my scenario: What if Oklahoma and Oklahoma St stayed in the SWC?

MVC consists of Iowa St, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas St, Wash U, Grinnell, Drake

They lose Grinnell in 1939 and Wash U in 1947, but pick up Colorado in 1947 to maintain 7 members.

In 1952 they lose Drake and this is where I think things get a little speculative. Do they maybe add one or more of the schools that passed through the real MVC at this time? (Wich St, Tulsa, UNT, Cincy, Memphis, L’ville) I have to think that anywhere from 1-3 of those schools end up joining this alternative reality MVC in the 1950s or 60s.

Meanwhile in SWC country, TCU joins in 1923, TTU in 1956, and Houston in 1972 to make 11 members.

In the early 90s, when the first wave of modern expansion occurs the SWC is healthy—Arkansas has no interest in the SEC and it’s the SWC looking for a 12th.

The SEC takes SC, but with no prospects in the West They either have to make a real hard push for FSU or they settle for either WVU or VT for their 12th

Nebraska, the lone tent pole of the MVC, is a hot commodity for both the Big Ten and SWC. The SWC lands the Huskers and they establish this division set up:

North: Nebraska, Oklahoma, OK St, Arkansas, SMU, TCU
South: TTU, Texas, Baylor, Rice, Houston, TAMU

By this time, if not decades earlier, I think we have schools like Cincy, Louisville, and maybe even Memphis in the MVC.

in 2005, when the ACC expands to 12, the schools left behind in the Big East might have found themselves in a real pickle in Cincinnati and Louisville are already in the MVC. Instead of a Big East football rebuild, we might see Pitt/Cuse/Rutgers etc becomes MVC affiliates.

I have a scenario in which OU/OSU remain in the SWC, although the point of divergence from our timeline is earlier, with the creation of a major Northeast/eastern Midwest conference in the early 20th century.

(07-24-2020 01:26 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Slightly modified present day scenario from a previous alternate history thread in which this topic arose:

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Virginia Tech (UF/FSU), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (Duke/UNC)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (Miami/VT), Florida State (Miami/VT), Duke (NCSU/UVA), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
East: Maryland (MSU/ND), Pittsburgh (ND/Temple), Penn State (Temple/Rutgers), Syracuse (Rutgers/BC), West Virginia (BC/UM), Ohio State (UM/MSU)
North: Notre Dame (UMD/Pitt), Temple (Pitt/PSU), Rutgers (PSU/Syracuse), Boston College (Syracuse/WVU), Michigan (WVU/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

American East (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
North: Army, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Marshall, Navy
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

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Major differences from our timeline

1910s
EAC forms with Michigan Agricultural (later renamed Michigan State), Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse

1920s
Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (later renamed Oklahoma State) do not leave SWC for MVIAA
Breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
Michigan from Western Conference to EAC; EAC also adds Temple and rebrands as Big East Conference
Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference/Big 12

1950s
ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech

1970s
South Carolina sticks with ACC
Maryland from ACC to Big East

1980s
Several I-A schools drop football to focus on academics and leave their conferences for DIII UAA, including Rice and SMU (SWC), Vanderbilt (SEC), and Wake Forest (ACC)
Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulsa, and Wichita State; no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
Florida State and Miami-FL join ACC
Boston College, Rutgers, and West Virginia join Big East
WAC declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa
American East Conference (a more eastern CUSA) forms with Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, and South Florida
SWC adds Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, and UAB

2000s
Colorado and Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12
WAC adds Boise State and Nevada
American East Conference adds Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

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Notable annual present day OOC matchups
Air Force/Navy
Air Force/Army
Arkansas/Arkansas State
Army/Rutgers
Auburn/Georgia
BYU/Utah
Cincinnati/Ohio State
Colorado/Colorado State
East Carolina/NC State
Louisville/Kentucky
Marshall/West Virginia
Maryland/Navy
Memphis/Tennessee
Notre Dame/USC
Oklahoma State/Tulsa

I’m going to tweak my MVC speculation a bit:

In the 50s the MVC loses Drake but gains Tulsa and Wichita St so that by the 60s the line up was:

Iowa St, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas St, Wichita St, Tulsa, Colorado

This puts them at 8 members at the same time the real Big 8 went to 8.

Nebraska goes to the SWC in the early 90s, SC and VT to the SEC, BYU to the MVC.

In 04 Miami, Cuse, and BC go to the ACC.

That leaves Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, and UConn all in a tight spot (Temple too). UCF gets into the Big East along with Cincy, Louisville, USF, Marquette, and DePaul.

The BCS ends up being a little different with 7 conferences instead of 6.

In 2010 the PAC 10 takes Colorado and Utah. The Big 10 takes Nebraska. The SWC holds at 10.

Infighting caused by Texas leads TAMU and Arkansas to leave the SWC for the SEC. In 2012 Pitt and Rutgers jump to the ACC. The 8 SWC schools bring in Missouri, Kansas, K St, and Iowa St for 12.

BYU goes Indy.

PAC 12–same as now
Big 10–same as now only no Maryland or Rutgers
ACC-same as now only instead of Louisville and VT they have Maryland and Rutgers
SEC—same as now only they have VT instead of Missouri
SWC—North: Kansas, K St, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, SMU
South: TCU, Baylor, Rice, Houston, TTU, Texas
BE fb: UConn, Temple, WVU, Cincy, Louisville, USF, UCF, Iowa St, Wich St, Tulsa, +Navy (fb only)