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Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
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YNot Offline
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Post: #1
Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
In December 2012, MWC commissioner Craig Thompson made the move to keep Boise St. and eventually SDSU in the MWC. (imbalanced revenue sharing)

The Big East/AAC rebounded and added Tulsa in March 2013 to create the current AAC football alignment.

But, what if the MWC kept equal revenue-sharing and Boise St. and SDSU maintained their commitment to the Big East/AAC? What would things look like today?

With Boise and SDSU, the soon-to-be AAC had 13 members. Would Tulsa be #14? Would Fresno and UNLV also bolt to the AAC to make 15 members? Would Tulsa be #16? Other?

How does the MWC respond? Stay at 10 teams? 8 teams? Invite Idaho and NMSU? Montana? Affiliate with independent BYU (similar to the attempted WAC deal)?
07-07-2017 03:29 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
The MW would stay at 10 members. UTEP would still wanted to stay with CUSA and UTSA wanted CUSA.
The only real option for the MW would have been NMSU and Texas St. I think they would hold unless going to 12 for a CCG was the goal of the MW as there was no indication that a CCG would be possible with 10.
Montana and Montana St would be better options than Idaho or NMSU.
07-07-2017 03:47 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.
07-07-2017 04:04 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
I think the number one priority would have been to attempt to get BYU and Air Force, again, as Football-only members. There would have been concessions needed to be made in order to get BYU, like allowing them to keep their TV rights for home games (but it appears they made similar concession to Navy). If you got those two locked-up, along with Navy, then you could acquire Army to get all three service academics under one banner. That would have gotten you to 16 schools, as follows:

East
Army (Football-only)
Cincinnati
East Carolina (Football-only)
Memphis
Temple
UConn
UCF
USF


West
Air Force (Football-only)
Boise State (Football-only)
BYU (Football-only)
Houston
Navy (Football-only)
San Diego State (Football-only)
SMU
Tulane


ECU was not upgraded to full member status until March of that year - after Boise State and San Diego State backed out before in December/January. The C7 left before both schools backed out, so their participation in this hypothesis is moot.
07-07-2017 04:15 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.
07-07-2017 04:24 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:15 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I think the number one priority would have been to attempt to get BYU and Air Force, again, as Football-only members. There would have been concessions needed to be made in order to get BYU, like allowing them to keep their TV rights for home games (but it appears they made similar concession to Navy). If you got those two locked-up, along with Navy, then you could acquire Army to get all three service academics under one banner. That would have gotten you to 16 schools, as follows:

East
Army (Football-only)
Cincinnati
East Carolina (Football-only)
Memphis
Temple
UConn
UCF
USF


West
Air Force (Football-only)
Boise State (Football-only)
BYU (Football-only)
Houston
Navy (Football-only)
San Diego State (Football-only)
SMU
Tulane


ECU was not upgraded to full member status until March of that year - after Boise State and San Diego State backed out before in December/January. The C7 left before both schools backed out, so their participation in this hypothesis is moot.

I wonder if the CCG deregulation vote would have turned out differently if the AAC was at 16 teams at the time....both the ACC and SEC would have been on board. Enough votes to push through full deregulation?
07-07-2017 04:31 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?
07-07-2017 04:34 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
It's terribly unfortunate for the schools involved but untimately I think the Carholic 7 taking so long to back out doomed the football schools in their attemp to make a coast to coast league. Had UConn, USF, and Cincy known that they'd soon be abandoned by their non-FB mates I think the direction thing took would have looked radically different.

If the western gambit was to work they needed a more steady home for the western schools' Olympic sports. Truthfully they needed to bring in 6-8 western schools that could form a division:

Houston
SMU
Boise St
San Diego St
BYU
AFA
Tulsa
UNLV

This group could function as its own conference, while an eastern league of UConn, Temple, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, USF, ECU and (Navy FB only) with a few non-FB members like Dayton and VCU essentially partner with them for a media contract and title game.

To make the cross country model to work they needed more western schools
07-07-2017 04:46 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
So, it's not too late...

FOOTBALL
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Navy, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU

OLYMPIC SPORTS
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Wichita, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU, BYU
07-07-2017 05:00 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
I don't think Boise State and SDSU in the BE/AAC was sustainable. At best, I see that arrangement lasting 4-5 years.
07-07-2017 05:28 PM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:00 PM)YNot Wrote:  So, it's not too late...

FOOTBALL
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Navy, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU

OLYMPIC SPORTS
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Wichita, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU, BYU

Nope, it's too late. It's always been too late.
07-07-2017 05:29 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
For the 2013 football season:

AAC (*football only)
West - San Diego State*, Fresno State*, Boise State*, BYU*, Air Force*, SMU, Houston
East - UConn, USF, Cincinnati, Temple, Louisville, Rutgers, Memphis

Mountain West
Western - San Jose State, Hawaii*, UNLV, Nevada, Idaho, Utah State
Mountain - Colorado State, Wyoming, New Mexico, New Mexico State, UTSA, Texas State

C-USA
West - Tulane, Tulsa, Rice, UTEP, North Texas, Louisiana Tech
East - Southern Miss, UAB, FAU, FIU, ECU, Marshall

Sun Belt
Arkansas State, Louisiana, ULM, USA, Troy, WKU, MTSU, Georgia State

MAC
East - Buffalo, Kent, Akron, Ohio, Miami, BGSU, UMass*
West - NIU, Ball State, WMU, CMU, EMU, Toledo

WAC (non-football)
SMU, Houston, San Diego State, Fresno State, Seattle, Boise State, BYU, Denver
07-07-2017 05:29 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?

Not actively, no. Going up to FBS was never a serious option for Georgetown or St. Johns. There was a small contingent inside Villanova wanting to do that, but it never really got close.

I believe these talks were around when Notre Dame got invited into the ACC. Some schools wanted to reacquire the D.C. market after Maryland got invited to the B1G (and since the basketball tournament was going to be there in a few years) - hence the Georgetown possibility. Villanova and St. Johns would have been added to get a larger ACC flag planted in New York City. Ultimately, however, there just wasn't a desire on either side.

Like I said, from what I remember, talks never got very far. From what I have been told, the C7 began exploratory discussions of officially breaking away as soon as Syracuse and Pittsburgh got ACC invites. By that time, the writing was on the wall that the Big East - in that form - was on life support. Everyone was publicly saying that everyone was staying together, but behind closed doors, every school was looking at ways to get off the sinking ship. Thankfully, the C7 realized that no one of the group would not be likely to get invites into a reconfigured ACC, so it was a partnership based not only on survival but also on the need to preserve the strength of their basketball product.
07-07-2017 05:38 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It's terribly unfortunate for the schools involved but untimately I think the Carholic 7 taking so long to back out doomed the football schools in their attemp to make a coast to coast league. Had UConn, USF, and Cincy known that they'd soon be abandoned by their non-FB mates I think the direction thing took would have looked radically different.

If the western gambit was to work they needed a more steady home for the western schools' Olympic sports. Truthfully they needed to bring in 6-8 western schools that could form a division:

Houston
SMU
Boise St
San Diego St
BYU
AFA
Tulsa
UNLV

This group could function as its own conference, while an eastern league of UConn, Temple, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, USF, ECU and (Navy FB only) with a few non-FB members like Dayton and VCU essentially partner with them for a media contract and title game.

To make the cross country model to work they needed more western schools

The move that lit the fuse on the C7's exit was the invitation of Tulane in November of 2012. It was only weeks later that the group officially decided to leave. The C7 got terrified about what they'd do to the league's RPI. Even though ECU was only added as a Football-only member, they had the belief that it was only a matter of time before they needed to be added as a full member.

I've said it a couple of times, but the hybrid model - in itself - was not doomed to fail. It was the inability for both the football schools and the non-football schools to agree upon schools for which to expand with. For years, there was so much disagreement on how to get past the 8 schools that the football teams had. Memphis, while elite at the time in basketball, was awful in football. East Carolina, while very strong in football, was awful in basketball. Temple occupied Philadelphia, already set by Villanova. UCF, at the time, was an average addition at best due to inconsistency in football and a weak basketball program. There just weren't any slam dunk additions that everyone could have agreed upon.
07-07-2017 05:50 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:50 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It's terribly unfortunate for the schools involved but untimately I think the Carholic 7 taking so long to back out doomed the football schools in their attemp to make a coast to coast league. Had UConn, USF, and Cincy known that they'd soon be abandoned by their non-FB mates I think the direction thing took would have looked radically different.

If the western gambit was to work they needed a more steady home for the western schools' Olympic sports. Truthfully they needed to bring in 6-8 western schools that could form a division:

Houston
SMU
Boise St
San Diego St
BYU
AFA
Tulsa
UNLV

This group could function as its own conference, while an eastern league of UConn, Temple, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, USF, ECU and (Navy FB only) with a few non-FB members like Dayton and VCU essentially partner with them for a media contract and title game.

To make the cross country model to work they needed more western schools

The move that lit the fuse on the C7's exit was the invitation of Tulane in November of 2012. It was only weeks later that the group officially decided to leave. The C7 got terrified about what they'd do to the league's RPI. Even though ECU was only added as a Football-only member, they had the belief that it was only a matter of time before they needed to be added as a full member.

I've said it a couple of times, but the hybrid model - in itself - was not doomed to fail. It was the inability for both the football schools and the non-football schools to agree upon schools for which to expand with. For years, there was so much disagreement on how to get past the 8 schools that the football teams had. Memphis, while elite at the time in basketball, was awful in football. East Carolina, while very strong in football, was awful in basketball. Temple occupied Philadelphia, already set by Villanova. UCF, at the time, was an average addition at best due to inconsistency in football and a weak basketball program. There just weren't any slam dunk additions that everyone could have agreed upon.

Yes, As I recall Tulane and ECU were what killed the partnership but I think the split was inevitable. The schools that linked the Catholic 7 to the rest of the league--BC, 'Cuse, Pitt, heck even WVU were all gone. The old guard had nothing in common with the newcomers and while Memphis and Temple brought strong basketball they just weren't seen as "the right kinds of schools" and the idea of their hated rival being elevated to their level just ate at Villanova. The athletic departments involved had very different missions and the schools that met the football side's needs did not check any boxes for the basketball schools.

If the football schools knew in November 2012 the Catholic 7 and Notre Dame were going to be gone placating the western schools would have been much more important and I think full memberships for the western schools and more "courtesy" additions that eased their travel would have been on the table instead of ECU and Tulane.
07-07-2017 08:35 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:50 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It's terribly unfortunate for the schools involved but untimately I think the Carholic 7 taking so long to back out doomed the football schools in their attemp to make a coast to coast league. Had UConn, USF, and Cincy known that they'd soon be abandoned by their non-FB mates I think the direction thing took would have looked radically different.

If the western gambit was to work they needed a more steady home for the western schools' Olympic sports. Truthfully they needed to bring in 6-8 western schools that could form a division:

Houston
SMU
Boise St
San Diego St
BYU
AFA
Tulsa
UNLV

This group could function as its own conference, while an eastern league of UConn, Temple, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, USF, ECU and (Navy FB only) with a few non-FB members like Dayton and VCU essentially partner with them for a media contract and title game.

To make the cross country model to work they needed more western schools

The move that lit the fuse on the C7's exit was the invitation of Tulane in November of 2012. It was only weeks later that the group officially decided to leave. The C7 got terrified about what they'd do to the league's RPI. Even though ECU was only added as a Football-only member, they had the belief that it was only a matter of time before they needed to be added as a full member.

I've said it a couple of times, but the hybrid model - in itself - was not doomed to fail. It was the inability for both the football schools and the non-football schools to agree upon schools for which to expand with. For years, there was so much disagreement on how to get past the 8 schools that the football teams had. Memphis, while elite at the time in basketball, was awful in football. East Carolina, while very strong in football, was awful in basketball. Temple occupied Philadelphia, already set by Villanova. UCF, at the time, was an average addition at best due to inconsistency in football and a weak basketball program. There just weren't any slam dunk additions that everyone could have agreed upon.

There was a brief moment in the early 2000's by ECU to get basketball up to snuff so that it would be possible for a Big East invite. There was even an article on espn talking about ECU putting together a decent product, the importance of the basketball program etc. I wish I could find that article. This was when CUSA basketball was top notch and before the Big East and A10 took the 7 best basketball schools...after that everyone not named Memphis totally deflated and the moment passed for ECU basketball...I guess.
07-07-2017 09:24 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
East Carolina was in consideration for the Big East going back to their Peach Bowl win in 1992.

That year ECU defeated 3 Top 25 teams and got the attention of the BE.
07-07-2017 11:28 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?

Villanova applied during that panic post-Pitt and Cuse. When they closed the book of FBS in 2013, they said they saw themselves aligned with ACC schools and that was no longer a possibility.

I think, if that also happened to the Big East, especially if the duo of Nova and GTown were plucked, does the split even happen? What happens with a C5? I think the conference beefs up on hoops and the rocky union remains for a bit. BB schools, and if so, who?
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 08:49 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
07-08-2017 08:37 AM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
We do not need SD state nor Boise. The only good grab is BYU, and to be honest I don't see a good #2 to bring with them. The MWC will fall back to CUSA and MAC, we will step forward to 3 to 5 mil per school. The divide will continue to expand between us and G4.
07-08-2017 09:04 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-08-2017 08:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?

Villanova applied during that panic post-Pitt and Cuse. When they closed the book of FBS in 2013, they said they saw themselves aligned with ACC schools and that was no longer a possibility.

I think, if that also happened to the Big East, especially if the duo of Nova and GTown were plucked, does the split even happen? What happens with a C5? I think the conference beefs up on hoops and the rocky union remains for a bit. BB schools, and if so, who?

It all would have come down to money. I'd assume that the C5 - DePaul, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall and St. Johns - would have been given less in this new form of the Big East. If their money was still less than what they were getting, then they absolutely start looking around and seeing what maximizes their value. They could have started a new 12-team conference with Butler, Creighton, Dayton, Richmond, Saint Louis, St. Joseph, and Xavier. They could have also just joined the A-10 outright, if it was determined that they could all bump up the salary of each of the teams. This form of the A-10 would have had 18 teams (as Davidson joined in 2014).

If the most money was still with the Big East, I would guess that the C5 would want a couple of strong non-football program in order to keep the basketball side competitive. Butler, Creighton, Saint Louis, and VCU would get looks, but that Xavier (Cincinnati) and St. Joseph (Temple) wouldn't.

Big East Basketball (2013-2014)
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Houston
Marquette
Memphis
Providence
Seton Hall

SMU
St. Johns
Temple
Tulane
UCF
USF

If you added Butler, Creighton, Saint Louis and VCU, you would have a very strong 14-team basketball league, anchored by UConn.
07-08-2017 10:13 AM
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