(07-10-2017 09:56 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

Folks quick to jump all over hazed but nothing but crickets for this post.

Thanks for what I'll take as support.

Nobody responded to my legit question about how and or why JMU is being paid less than NC A&T to play East Carolina this season. We are giving points in Vegas, we just won a NC, we travel very well.

This does not make any sense to me. Can somebody offer a reason other than NC A&T has a higher standard? JMU has a much better product to sell, why are we getting less?

(07-10-2017 11:07 AM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:56 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

Folks quick to jump all over hazed but nothing but crickets for this post.

Thanks for what I'll take as support.

Nobody responded to my legit question about how and or why JMU is being paid less than NC A&T to play East Carolina this season. We are giving points in Vegas, we just won a NC, we travel very well.

This does not make any sense to me. Can somebody offer a reason other than NC A&T has a higher standard? JMU has a much better product to sell, why are we getting less?

It's been explained in the other thread if you'd take your head out of the sand.

I'm sure there's a reason (even if it is JMU incompetence). I just don't care. I can't bring myself to care about our FBS 1-game guarantee contract amounts. Beyond my pay grade & I don't care even if it was $200,000 difference.

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

Can we trust these figures as accurate? Dukeman has posted so many inaccuracies that debating these figures prior to confirmation of their legitimacy is a waste of time.

Nation is speaking the truth!

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

The point DM2 is making is an excellent one. With the increased cost of FBS football (travel, scholarships) and the non existent TV revenue at the Non P5 level, the burden placed on donors to stop the financial FBS bleed, is enormous.

DM2 - excellent work, could you share with us a similar comparison of ODU's athletic departments expenses?

(07-11-2017 07:19 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

The point DM2 is making is an excellent one. With the increased cost of FBS football (travel, scholarships) and the non existent TV revenue at the Non P5 level, the burden placed on donors to stop the financial FBS bleed, is enormous.

DM2 - excellent work, could you share with us a similar comparison of ODU's athletic departments expenses?

Or the obvious, rights/licensing/contributions have grown considerably since their move to fbs and CUSA. 774K to 5.1M is quite a jump. 1.6 to 5.8m far outpaces JMU's growth of the same during that time period.

(07-11-2017 07:49 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 07:19 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

The point DM2 is making is an excellent one. With the increased cost of FBS football (travel, scholarships) and the non existent TV revenue at the Non P5 level, the burden placed on donors to stop the financial FBS bleed, is enormous.

DM2 - excellent work, could you share with us a similar comparison of ODU's athletic departments expenses?

Or the obvious, rights/licensing/contributions have grown considerably since their move to fbs and CUSA. 774K to 5.1M is quite a jump. 1.6 to 5.8m far outpaces JMU's growth of the same during that time period.

Also points out how Football moves the needle as 2009 was the year they started back up.

(07-11-2017 07:49 AM)jmutoml757 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 07:19 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

The point DM2 is making is an excellent one. With the increased cost of FBS football (travel, scholarships) and the non existent TV revenue at the Non P5 level, the burden placed on donors to stop the financial FBS bleed, is enormous.

DM2 - excellent work, could you share with us a similar comparison of ODU's athletic departments expenses?

Or the obvious, rights/licensing/contributions have grown considerably since their move to fbs and CUSA. 774K to 5.1M is quite a jump. 1.6 to 5.8m far outpaces JMU's growth of the same during that time period.

Is TV money part of the rights figure? If so, the 2017 number will be more relevant. Also, are the donations a steady rise each year, or are there factors like stadium expansion numbers mixed in ODU's total? I wouldn't be surprised if it is just the benefit of FBS football, but numbers could also be cherry-picked.

You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

I hadn't noticed the sub links in the page from the OP, but that doesn't really answer anything other than the trend question I had. Looking at the more detailed reports helped my understanding some (namely that the rights number is misleading since the bottom has fallen out of the TV deal), but I still don't know if stadium money is in the contribution pile. Maybe that is explained somewhere in the document you posted, but I was hoping others that are more versed in state accounting could clue me in on how that works.

(07-11-2017 02:33 PM)jmu97 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

I hadn't noticed the sub links in the page from the OP, but that doesn't really answer anything other than the trend question I had. Looking at the more detailed reports helped my understanding some (namely that the rights number is misleading since the bottom has fallen out of the TV deal), but I still don't know if stadium money is in the contribution pile. Maybe that is explained somewhere in the document you posted, but I was hoping others that are more versed in state accounting could clue me in on how that works.

It shouldn't be typically. According to the NCAA Agreed Upon Procedures only contributions collected and used in the current year should be in annual revenues and there's an "Other Reporting Items" outside of expenses to list capital expenditures. These are fairly new standards so farther than a few years back some schools were listing capital campaign contributions and even contributions that were pledged but not collected.

Here's the NCAA agreed upon procedures. Scroll down to Appendixes A-C to see what should be included on each line item of the financial report.


https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...170515.pdf

(07-11-2017 06:05 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  It shouldn't be typically. According to the NCAA Agreed Upon Procedures only contributions collected and used in the current year should be in annual revenues and there's an "Other Reporting Items" outside of expenses to list capital expenditures. These are fairly new standards so farther than a few years back some schools were listing capital campaign contributions and even contributions that were pledged but not collected.

Here's the NCAA agreed upon procedures. Scroll down to Appendixes A-C to see what should be included on each line item of the financial report.


https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...170515.pdf

Thanks mturn, that's what I was curious about. The reason it even came to mind was because several years back a bunch of Hokie fans got their feathers ruffled about the perceived donation gap with UVa that year. In reality the reports included a lump payment that the Jones family had made for the construction of JPJ, so the numbers were heavily skewed (even though technically still a donation for athletics). It's good to know that procedres are more standardized now.

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

Good stuff Mturn. interesting information here.

couple of back of napkin items

ODU football vs JMU football

student aid 3.2m vs. 2.0 m
Coaching 2.1 vs. 1.5
Recruiting 300 k vs. 93k feels like we should be spending more here
Team travel 1.0 m vs. 435k
Game exp 722k vs. 1.3m it costs a lot to run Bridgeforth
Marketing 71k vs. 386 surprised we do more here
Dir. OH admin 650 vs. 1.7m whoa, who knows what is going on here? I suspect stadium related

for the whole athletic department

ODU travel $3.7 million vs. JMU $2.2 million
Odu scholies $8.9 vs. JMU 8.0 - either odu has less sports or their programs arent fully funded


Biggest takeaway, we spend a lot to run the stadium. much more than ODU , they derive $3.1 m in ticket revenue, we get 2.3

at a minimum, moving FBS would cost us $3.0 million more a year. Scholies, travel, coaches salaries,

increases in revenue, maybe another $500k in ticket revenue, $500k in conference distributions, but that maybe going down.

That means would have have to raise at least $2.0 more a year from donors. I suspect thats low. Probably looking more like $2.5 - 4.

Thats the price tag. That means everyone doubles their Duke club contribution. All these schools need to find a way to cut travel and increase ticket revenue. Regional conference, regional rivalries, less travel, more tickets sold.

Thanks for putting that together. The marketing $ doesn't surprise me but I wonder if that's reported elsewhere or somehow different? I personally feel we have a really tight and limited marketing budget but recently we hired a 3rd party to do PR/Marketing so maybe that's changed.

(07-12-2017 09:33 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

Good stuff Mturn. interesting information here.

couple of back of napkin items

ODU football vs JMU football

student aid 3.2m vs. 2.0 m
Coaching 2.1 vs. 1.5
Recruiting 300 k vs. 93k feels like we should be spending more here
Team travel 1.0 m vs. 435k
Game exp 722k vs. 1.3m it costs a lot to run Bridgeforth
Marketing 71k vs. 386 surprised we do more here
Dir. OH admin 650 vs. 1.7m whoa, who knows what is going on here? I suspect stadium related

for the whole athletic department

ODU travel $3.7 million vs. JMU $2.2 million
Odu scholies $8.9 vs. JMU 8.0 - either odu has less sports or their programs arent fully funded


Biggest takeaway, we spend a lot to run the stadium. much more than ODU , they derive $3.1 m in ticket revenue, we get 2.3

at a minimum, moving FBS would cost us $3.0 million more a year. Scholies, travel, coaches salaries,

increases in revenue, maybe another $500k in ticket revenue, $500k in conference distributions, but that maybe going down.

That means would have have to raise at least $2.0 more a year from donors. I suspect thats low. Probably looking more like $2.5 - 4.

Thats the price tag. That means everyone doubles their Duke club contribution. All these schools need to find a way to cut travel and increase ticket revenue. Regional conference, regional rivalries, less travel, more tickets sold.

While I appreciate you trying to gauge the cost of going FBS there is no way your spitball extrapolations are accurate or comprehensive. Not sure if there's truly that much waste in our budget, or our reporting methods make us appear to be overly extravagant but something's out of whack. Our big fish has way too much bling for such a little pond.

I for one would rather spend more on football and/or basketball at the cost of all other sports but seeing as some inside the bubble (including our admin) continue to prefer to have the best funded, regional tiddlywinks team it isn't going to happen. So many complain about costs but FB and BB are the only sports with real revenue generating potential, in addition to pulling so many more donors into the fold.

(07-10-2017 11:06 AM)olddawg Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:56 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-08-2017 07:09 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  2009
Contributions to JMU: $1,474,000
Contributions to ODU: $1,655,000

2016
Contributions to JMU: $2,583,000
Contributions to ODU: $5,851,000


2009
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $2,300,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $774,000

2016
Rights/Licensing to JMU : $3,298,000
Rights/Licensing to ODU: $5,155,000

Folks quick to jump all over hazed but nothing but crickets for this post.

Frequently the case on sensitive issues. Follows the intelligence world handbook. Admit nothing, Deny everything, make counter accusations.

If that data is correct, that says alot...

Contributions at ODU gone up about over 200% and rights gone up over 600% in 7 years?

If that data is correct.....

(07-12-2017 10:15 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-12-2017 09:33 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

Good stuff Mturn. interesting information here.

couple of back of napkin items

ODU football vs JMU football

student aid 3.2m vs. 2.0 m
Coaching 2.1 vs. 1.5
Recruiting 300 k vs. 93k feels like we should be spending more here
Team travel 1.0 m vs. 435k
Game exp 722k vs. 1.3m it costs a lot to run Bridgeforth
Marketing 71k vs. 386 surprised we do more here
Dir. OH admin 650 vs. 1.7m whoa, who knows what is going on here? I suspect stadium related

for the whole athletic department

ODU travel $3.7 million vs. JMU $2.2 million
Odu scholies $8.9 vs. JMU 8.0 - either odu has less sports or their programs arent fully funded


Biggest takeaway, we spend a lot to run the stadium. much more than ODU , they derive $3.1 m in ticket revenue, we get 2.3

at a minimum, moving FBS would cost us $3.0 million more a year. Scholies, travel, coaches salaries,

increases in revenue, maybe another $500k in ticket revenue, $500k in conference distributions, but that maybe going down.

That means would have have to raise at least $2.0 more a year from donors. I suspect thats low. Probably looking more like $2.5 - 4.

Thats the price tag. That means everyone doubles their Duke club contribution. All these schools need to find a way to cut travel and increase ticket revenue. Regional conference, regional rivalries, less travel, more tickets sold.

While I appreciate you trying to gauge the cost of going FBS there is no way your spitball extrapolations are accurate or comprehensive. Not sure if there's truly that much waste in our budget, or our reporting methods make us appear to be overly extravagant but something's out of whack. Our big fish has way too much bling for such a little pond.

I for one would rather spend more on football and/or basketball at the cost of all other sports but seeing as some inside the bubble (including our admin) continue to prefer to have the best funded, regional tiddlywinks team it isn't going to happen. So many complain about costs but FB and BB are the only sports with real revenue generating potential, in addition to pulling so many more donors into the fold.

while my back of the napkin numbers may be off, there is no denying FBS at the G5 level does not pay for itself. It will require significant increases in donor contributions. Bourne outlined this in one of his Bourne Dialogues. $2-4 million more a year is not insignificant. Everybody essentially doubles their gift.

As for tiddlywinks, we have already cut sports. no way we are cutting any others with title ix. I believe ODU is non compliant with title ix, so lets see how that plays. with title ix, woman's sports are untouchable, so where are you cutting? soccer, baseball? Golf and Tennis? No money there. Not sure, there are huge numbers to be had on the mens side.

(07-12-2017 10:35 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-12-2017 10:15 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-12-2017 09:33 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

Good stuff Mturn. interesting information here.

couple of back of napkin items

ODU football vs JMU football

student aid 3.2m vs. 2.0 m
Coaching 2.1 vs. 1.5
Recruiting 300 k vs. 93k feels like we should be spending more here
Team travel 1.0 m vs. 435k
Game exp 722k vs. 1.3m it costs a lot to run Bridgeforth
Marketing 71k vs. 386 surprised we do more here
Dir. OH admin 650 vs. 1.7m whoa, who knows what is going on here? I suspect stadium related

for the whole athletic department

ODU travel $3.7 million vs. JMU $2.2 million
Odu scholies $8.9 vs. JMU 8.0 - either odu has less sports or their programs arent fully funded


Biggest takeaway, we spend a lot to run the stadium. much more than ODU , they derive $3.1 m in ticket revenue, we get 2.3

at a minimum, moving FBS would cost us $3.0 million more a year. Scholies, travel, coaches salaries,

increases in revenue, maybe another $500k in ticket revenue, $500k in conference distributions, but that maybe going down.

That means would have have to raise at least $2.0 more a year from donors. I suspect thats low. Probably looking more like $2.5 - 4.

Thats the price tag. That means everyone doubles their Duke club contribution. All these schools need to find a way to cut travel and increase ticket revenue. Regional conference, regional rivalries, less travel, more tickets sold.

While I appreciate you trying to gauge the cost of going FBS there is no way your spitball extrapolations are accurate or comprehensive. Not sure if there's truly that much waste in our budget, or our reporting methods make us appear to be overly extravagant but something's out of whack. Our big fish has way too much bling for such a little pond.

I for one would rather spend more on football and/or basketball at the cost of all other sports but seeing as some inside the bubble (including our admin) continue to prefer to have the best funded, regional tiddlywinks team it isn't going to happen. So many complain about costs but FB and BB are the only sports with real revenue generating potential, in addition to pulling so many more donors into the fold.

while my back of the napkin numbers may be off, there is no denying FBS at the G5 level does not pay for itself. It will require significant increases in donor contributions. Bourne outlined this in one of his Bourne Dialogues. $2-4 million more a year is not insignificant. Everybody essentially doubles their gift.

As for tiddlywinks, we have already cut sports. no way we are cutting any others with title ix. I believe ODU is non compliant with title ix, so lets see how that plays. with title ix, woman's sports are untouchable, so where are you cutting? soccer, baseball? Golf and Tennis? No money there. Not sure, there are huge numbers to be had on the mens side.

I'm not talking about cutting sports/scholarships, we will in fact have to increase them for an FBS move. I'm talking about the other expenses. Don't get me wrong, seeing the ladies do so well in softball or the men in golf are great... but those are nice to haves for me. The must haves are FB and MBB. I'm fine with paying more and spending more across the board if FB and MBB are at a national level but they're not.

(07-12-2017 10:35 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-12-2017 10:15 AM)2Buck Wrote:  

(07-12-2017 09:33 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 12:50 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  You guys know there's a link in the OP with the answers to all the questions you're asking right? And if you want more detail the full audited financials for all of VAs athletic depts are available online.

Here's the latest but you can find past years

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/OldD...AA2016.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-sta...aa2016.pdf

Good stuff Mturn. interesting information here.

couple of back of napkin items

ODU football vs JMU football

student aid 3.2m vs. 2.0 m
Coaching 2.1 vs. 1.5
Recruiting 300 k vs. 93k feels like we should be spending more here
Team travel 1.0 m vs. 435k
Game exp 722k vs. 1.3m it costs a lot to run Bridgeforth
Marketing 71k vs. 386 surprised we do more here
Dir. OH admin 650 vs. 1.7m whoa, who knows what is going on here? I suspect stadium related

for the whole athletic department

ODU travel $3.7 million vs. JMU $2.2 million
Odu scholies $8.9 vs. JMU 8.0 - either odu has less sports or their programs arent fully funded


Biggest takeaway, we spend a lot to run the stadium. much more than ODU , they derive $3.1 m in ticket revenue, we get 2.3

at a minimum, moving FBS would cost us $3.0 million more a year. Scholies, travel, coaches salaries,

increases in revenue, maybe another $500k in ticket revenue, $500k in conference distributions, but that maybe going down.

That means would have have to raise at least $2.0 more a year from donors. I suspect thats low. Probably looking more like $2.5 - 4.

Thats the price tag. That means everyone doubles their Duke club contribution. All these schools need to find a way to cut travel and increase ticket revenue. Regional conference, regional rivalries, less travel, more tickets sold.

While I appreciate you trying to gauge the cost of going FBS there is no way your spitball extrapolations are accurate or comprehensive. Not sure if there's truly that much waste in our budget, or our reporting methods make us appear to be overly extravagant but something's out of whack. Our big fish has way too much bling for such a little pond.

I for one would rather spend more on football and/or basketball at the cost of all other sports but seeing as some inside the bubble (including our admin) continue to prefer to have the best funded, regional tiddlywinks team it isn't going to happen. So many complain about costs but FB and BB are the only sports with real revenue generating potential, in addition to pulling so many more donors into the fold.

while my back of the napkin numbers may be off, there is no denying FBS at the G5 level does not pay for itself. It will require significant increases in donor contributions. Bourne outlined this in one of his Bourne Dialogues. $2-4 million more a year is not insignificant. Everybody essentially doubles their gift.

As for tiddlywinks, we have already cut sports. no way we are cutting any others with title ix. I believe ODU is non compliant with title ix, so lets see how that plays. with title ix, woman's sports are untouchable, so where are you cutting? soccer, baseball? Golf and Tennis? No money there. Not sure, there are huge numbers to be had on the mens side.

Or more people give. I don't doubt for a second that a move up will require an additional ~$5M+ a year. If we (or the JMU leadership) don't think we will get that than we should should stop the discussion right now. I however think that JMU would get twice that and much, much more.